Rafaeldagold
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- Joined
- Jan 20, 2015
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We absolutely cannot let him go- we have no depth at striker at all- be madness if we got rid of him
You're falling into the trap of thinking that we suddenly have a master plan, and are going to be patient with Ole if all goes wrong again, (people are forgetting the jury is totally out on him actually been good enough even if the circumstances were perfect).This is again short term and the problems we have been having for the past few years.
We need to think more long term than next season where we are now
If we don't make UCL season but Greenwood, Gomes and James and Wan Bissaka are closer to being top players thats a win. If the first 3 can fully establish themselves in the first team even better. We can then focus on other areas Jan and next summer
Fully agree Ole isn't happy, but I 100% think he is intelligent enough to know it wasn't a job for 1 summer
Im not falling into any trap neither am I saying we have a plan. Im simply saying what we need to doYou're falling into the trap of thinking that we suddenly have a master plan, and are going to be patient with Ole if all goes wrong again, (people are forgetting the jury is totally out on him actually been good enough even if the circumstances were perfect).
There is absolutely nothing to suggest to this will happen, Ole needs to get top 4 or he'll be toast, and he arguably has a weaker squad than Jose had last season to do it with, now they want to weaken him further.
Yes, but it's usually backed up with quality experienced players, now they have to be good enough or we've had it.Is that not what this club has always been about? Since when did we start fearing putting trust in our young players?
Fair enough, I just hope the club share your thoughts.Im not falling into any trap neither am I saying we have a plan. Im simply saying what we need to do
What deal? He’s not going nowhere.So what is the potential deal? That Inter will take him on loan and pay his wages which be lowered/less taxed in the process?
Reports on Italian media saying medical scheduled for Tuesday. Don't know if it s true or notWhat deal? He’s not going nowhere.
Shades of 95/96 for me, albeit I think the challenge and expectation is Top 4 rather than Title.Yes, but it's usually backed up with quality experienced players, now they have to be good enough or we've had it.
I guess that's the difference between us, you see it as the club losing Fellaini, Herrera, Lukaku and Sanchez (possibly) and I see it as us getting rid of them. Throwing them out of the door to put it bluntly. None of those players would make the starting 11, thus making them surplus to requirements. Their inclusion in the squad serving only to hinder the progression of the young and hungry academy grads. I do think not bringing in a new central midfielder this summer could prove costly though. Having to rely on Matic, Periera and Fred is not overly inspiring.Sanchez in isolation, yeah, he’s been rubbish for us and a disaster. My points have been in general - we’ll have lost Herrera, Fellaini, Sanchez and Lukaku. I’m not saying they were all brilliant but continuing to throw kids in and expect improvement is not going to fix anything.
I don't disagree with you here. The top leagues in Europe are generally won by the team with most expensive squad. But we tried the galactico approach, spending in the region of £800 million quid on superstar players, and it got us absolutely nowhere. I expect this 'buy young and promote from within' policy to last until Ole finishes his full first season in charge, after which he will be granted a far larger 'war chest' to work with the following summer. Assuming that his performance, or rather the teams performance, is up to scratch of course or the club don't recruit a DoF. I think the board want to see what he can do with the current crop of players before investing heavily in him. Ole can blame his predecessors (and Ed) for the boards more cautious approach to transfer market expenditure these days.Also the growing attitude on here of ‘we had a couple of big signings that didn’t work, so let’s abandon trying to sign them’ I just can’t fathom. It’s like fans have been sold magic beans and are waiting for some miracle...apart from the Leicester anomaly, pretty much every league is won by teams that spend big money on really good players.
I can't speak for everyone but I'm happy to spend a couple more years in the wilderness as long as the club is progressing in the right direction. Let's face it, Woody's galactico approach has failed drastically, enough that he should lose his job for it. But we all know that will never happen.It seems so obvious to say but United will be fighting for 4th whilst the teams with stars and who’ve strengthened with quality are going to fight for the league and CL. If we want to play lots of youth players, are happy not to challenge because of tradition and an enforced ‘British Bilbao’ type situation but we have a pride of blooming youngsters etc, then fair enough but let’s not kid ourselves and claim it’s the beginning of a master stroke to get back to the top again. I feel a lot of the fans think it’s going to work and it’ll kick off in a few months when it falls apart.
We got a player with 6 months left on his current contract who had not shown any interest in playing for Arsenal, he made it clear he wanted to leave that summer. Instead Arsenal got a player who seemed to be just the player they needed to replace Sanchez off us in return rather than lose Sanchez on a free when he clearly wasn't worth keeping till then.Didn’t we buy Sanchez in January? The issue around Cup ties players is less relevant than it was than 5 years ago - and besides, who cares if we buy a striker who can’t play in the Euporapointless league?
The point is, if we are short - it’s only 4 months that we have to get through. Quite frankly, I’ll take that if it means getting rid of Alexis.
The alternative is relying on Sanchez!
Exactly this.Whats the point in having depth when the depth is pish.
We have been waiting for him to come good for a year and a half and we are still yet to see any sort of form from him aside from a few goals here and there
Why do you continue to bring up this u23 point? Nobody cares about the team that was managed by football dinosaur Sbragia. None of us want Ercolani playing for the first team. None of us are expecting Bohui to play for the first team (even though he left). What we care about are the top talents. And Gomes was great all season. He's the last person you can blame for the team not doing good. Greenwood hardly played for the u23s too, but yes he would have been a better option than Burkart.Had anyone said that? However kids needs time to develop, a great manager to lead them and a solid top quality team to rely upon for experience. We lack on all three fronts. But hey lets just rely on players from the U23 team whose in second division and U18 who ended up 4th in the North region (ie no Chelsea, no Spurs, no Arsenal etc). Its evident that they are ready right?
Me neither. Apparently he needs to stay, presumably so that he can play games of football for us. Which has never gone well in the past.Wait people want Sánchez to... stay?
I don’t get it.
It's a major issue in my mind. I've only been arguing that selling Lukaku & Sanchez aren't bad moves for the club. Not signing a midfielder or two is horrible. I think the club has a plan, but couldn't get the players in or didn't want to get players in before getting rid of Sanchez and Lukaku from the wage list. All speculation though on my end.But you say this like it is a minor issue, it is a major issue, and could well be the difference between us getting top 4 and us not, I just don't get it, the money was apparently there, the wages were freed up, and the players were available.
Personally I doubt the club has a grand plan in place to free wages now for the future, we just don't operate like that, so I see no upside to Sanchez leaving now at all.
Apparently we need him for depth because a youngster can't provide *checks notes* 2 goals and 4 assists.Wait people want Sánchez to... stay?
I don’t get it.
It depends a lot on the conditions for the potential deal. There is no point in sending him on loan if we still will be paying a major part of his astronomical wages, unless he is a disruptive force in the dressing room of course. If he is prepared to take a pay cut to move to Inter well then it is a no-brainer since his contribution will be limited, as you point out. I would even support a move where we pay a minor part of the wages just to get rid.Apparently we need him for depth because a youngster can't provide *checks notes* 2 goals and 4 assists.
If Inter pay his full wages we save £18mil. If Inter pay part of his wages, we could potentially save £10mil. 10 is a lot and could potentially help us spend next summer. Especially if we're in for Sancho.It depends a lot on the conditions for the potential deal. There is no point in sending him on loan if we still will be paying a major part of his astronomical wages, unless he is a disruptive force in the dressing room of course. If he is prepared to take a pay cut to move to Inter well then it is a no-brainer since his contribution will be limited, as you point out. I would even support a move where we pay a minor part of the wages just to get rid.
I find hypocritical that people use stats to attack Sanchez knowing fully well that the guy has been injured for a big chunk of his stay here, that we had 2 managers in 18 months and that all recent players bought from Mourinho had struggled because of this. What's truly fascinating is that the same people who does that, don't really want us to use that same method to be used against our beloved youngsters. Cause lets face it, the results at youth level aren't that great. The U23 has been in shambles while the U18 has ended 4th in the North league (ie that exclude Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea etc) and had their arse handled to them by Shitty in a 3-0 defeat at the U18 league cup. Our best scorer was Greenwood at 15 goals. Ah Greenwood the guy whom by the posts in here is some sort of Henry, Jesus and RVN wrapped in one. It turned out that he's 4th top scorer at U18 (NORTH EDITION) and he had scored 16 goals less then Simms. So the situation is really simple here. Since these guy has near zilc experience at first team level and the results at youth level aren't that great, then on which criteria should we trust these guys to step up and replace Lukaku, Sanchez, Herrera, Fellaini and co? Believe?Why do you continue to bring up this u23 point? Nobody cares about the team that was managed by football dinosaur Sbragia. None of us want Ercolani playing for the first team. None of us are expecting Bohui to play for the first team (even though he left). What we care about are the top talents. And Gomes was great all season. He's the last person you can blame for the team not doing good. Greenwood hardly played for the u23s too, but yes he would have been a better option than Burkart.
It's not really some high standard they need to meet to replace Sanchez. 18 year old Rashford was better than last season's Sanchez. 18 year old Januzaj was as good as last season's Sanchez. Why is it now impossible for Greenwood to be a better option than last season's Sanchez?
Furthermore, we have 3 striker options in Martial, Rashford, and Greenwood. Greenwood is literally the 3rd option for the 9 position. We're not asking him to be the main guy. And for the wide positions we have James, Mata, Dalot, Martial, Rashford, Lingard, etc... It's not like there is no overlap in our squad options. Many of them play different positions.
I feel like the pro-Sanchez crowd is using this mythical Sanchez against youngsters. In reality, replacing this real Sanchez is very easy. A youngster performing like crap = providing what Sanchez provided. The only difference is that he's young and Sanchez is older. How is this not getting through to some of you?
edit: Just to be clear, I wouldn't be arguing this if it was Lukaku. With Lukaku it's easily understandable why some wouldn't want him away with no replacement. He's actually produced at a level that can't be produced by a young player. Sanchez though? I'm not having that.
I've already told you that Sanchez wasn't the only player playing through 2 managerial changes. He was the worst of all the players. That also wasn't his first season with United. He had a half season with us so he technically had more time with Mourinho than Fred and Dalot. Nevermind the fact that we're discussing a potential deal to get Sanchez away, not for Fred or Dalot and nevermind the fact that Sanchez is on bigger wages and is older than those 2 players. Plus, we already bought a replacement for Dalot in AWB. Clearly we weren't happy with his production and mostly everyone here is pissed we didn't buy a replacement for Herrera because we're not believers in Fred. Difference is there is depth in regards to our attack compared to our midfield. There is no depth in our midfield whatsoever. Not the same argument in this Sanchez conversation.I find hypocritical that people use stats to attack Sanchez knowing fully well that the guy has been injured for a big chunk of his stay here, that we had 2 managers in 18 months and that all recent players bought from Mourinho had struggled because of this. What's truly fascinating is that the same people who does that, don't really want us to use that same method to be used against our beloved youngsters. Cause lets face it, the results at youth level aren't that great. The U23 has been in shambles while the U18 has ended 4th in the North league (ie that exclude Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea etc) and had their arse handled to them by Shitty in a 3-0 defeat at the U18 league cup.
Stop talking nonsense. You clearly have no idea what's going on at youth level if you're bringing those kids into the conversation. I'll quickly argue in Greenwood's favor.Our best scorer was Greenwood at 15 goals. Ah Greenwood the guy whom by the posts in here is some sort of Henry, Jesus and RVN wrapped in one. It turned out that he's 4th top scorer at U18 (NORTH EDITION) and he had scored 16 goals less then Simms. So the situation is really simple here. Since these guy has near zilc experience at first team level and the results at youth level aren't that great, then on which criteria should we trust these guys to step up and replace Lukaku, Sanchez, Herrera, Fellaini and co? Believe?
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Nobody is asking them to produce at the class of 92 level. They're being asked to produce at Sanchez's 2 goals and 4 assists level. 18 year old Januzaj did better than Sanchez. 18 year old Januzaj under Moyes had 4 goals and 6 assists. 18 year old Rashford did better than that Sanchez. Why is it all of a sudden impossible for the more impressive Greenwood? He had a much better goal scoring record at youth level than Rashford and he was also at a younger age.Don't take me wrong I do think that there's some talent at academy level but lets be realistic here. There's no class of 92 coming up. That class won youth FA cup and everyone knew we were at the brink of something special. Also what we're asking from these kids is beyond what we asked from the class of 92 way back. Gaz, Becks and co were older then the current kids when they first burst into scene, they were bedded in slowly, they played in a less competitive league then it is now and of course they were surrounded by absolute talents like (Schmeichel, Bruce, Pally, Irwin, Keane, Ince (in Giggs case), Cantona etc) which included a real manager.
In reality this is not about Sanchez. I mean, if the club bothered at least replacing Lukaku and bring in a much needed RW then every one would have been on board on this. This is about a team who lack talent, a team which was further impoverished with Herrera, Fellaini and Lukaku leaving and not adequately replaced and look set to lose Sanchez as well. Sure Sanchez may be finished, which I really doubt considering Conte wants him and he has far more experience then us, the board and little Ole combined. However, since we lack talent and numbers then Id rather keep the forwards we've got and hope at least one of them shows brilliance then keep losing players for Woody to look good when showing his spreadsheet. Sanchez even at 40% is better then most of the players we got and lets face it fans are fickle. If they had their way Martial and Pogba wouldn't be here as well. Look at them now. They are our saviours.
Regarding Sbragia, the least said about managers and their records the betters. Don't forget our own guy got his arse handled with Cardiff and he was busy rotting at Molde until we showed up. I honestly don't understand the criteria of how United hire this day when, of course, they do bother hire.
I find hypocritical that people use stats to attack Sanchez knowing fully well that the guy has been injured for a big chunk of his stay here, that we had 2 managers in 18 months and that all recent players bought from Mourinho had struggled because of this. What's truly fascinating is that the same people who does that, don't really want us to use that same method to be used against our beloved youngsters. Cause lets face it, the results at youth level aren't that great. The U23 has been in shambles while the U18 has ended 4th in the North league (ie that exclude Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea etc) and had their arse handled to them by Shitty in a 3-0 defeat at the U18 league cup. Our best scorer was Greenwood at 15 goals. Ah Greenwood the guy whom by the posts in here is some sort of Henry, Jesus and RVN wrapped in one. It turned out that he's 4th top scorer at U18 (NORTH EDITION) and he had scored 16 goals less then Simms. So the situation is really simple here. Since these guy has near zilc experience at first team level and the results at youth level aren't that great, then on which criteria should we trust these guys to step up and replace Lukaku, Sanchez, Herrera, Fellaini and co? Believe?
Don't take me wrong I do think that there's some talent at academy level but lets be realistic here. There's no class of 92 coming up. That class won youth FA cup and everyone knew we were at the brink of something special. Also what we're asking from these kids is beyond what we asked from the class of 92 way back. Gaz, Becks and co were older then the current kids when they first burst into scene, they were bedded in slowly, they played in a less competitive league then it is now and of course they were surrounded by absolute talents like (Schmeichel, Bruce, Pally, Irwin, Keane, Ince (in Giggs case), Cantona etc) which included a real manager.
In reality this is not about Sanchez. I mean, if the club bothered at least replacing Lukaku and bring in a much needed RW then every one would have been on board on this. This is about a team who lack talent, a team which was further impoverished with Herrera, Fellaini and Lukaku leaving and not adequately replaced and look set to lose Sanchez as well. Sure Sanchez may be finished, which I really doubt considering Conte wants him and he has far more experience then us, the board and little Ole combined. However, since we lack talent and numbers then Id rather keep the forwards we've got and hope at least one of them shows brilliance then keep losing players for Woody to look good when showing his spreadsheet. Sanchez even at 40% is better then most of the players we got and lets face it fans are fickle. If they had their way Martial and Pogba wouldn't be here as well. Look at them now. They are our saviours.
Regarding Sbragia, the least said about managers and their records the betters. Don't forget our own guy got his arse handled with Cardiff and he was busy rotting at Molde until we showed up. I honestly don't understand the criteria of how United hire this day when, of course, they do bother hiring
It’s just so they have a reason to moan about something. Sanchez is done here, if we need extra numbers I’d play Chong Gomes and of course Greenwood before him. With Lingard, Mata, James, Rashford, Martial and even Dalot as an option, he won’t be missed. 5 goals in 45 games and some are still worried we will miss him? Wish it had turned out better as he was one hell of a player with emphasis on the was. We both need to move on from one another.Still can’t believe how some here would prefer Sanchez, arguably the biggest flop in history of Man United, to Greenwood, arguably our best young talent in nearly a decade.
Good post. I agree with almost everything, rating players based on team's performance is silly, especially at youth level.huge post