We absolutely cannot let him go- we have no depth at striker at all- be madness if we got rid of him
Alexis offered to Roma
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
You're falling into the trap of thinking that we suddenly have a master plan, and are going to be patient with Ole if all goes wrong again, (people are forgetting the jury is totally out on him actually been good enough even if the circumstances were perfect).
There is absolutely nothing to suggest to this will happen, Ole needs to get top 4 or he'll be toast, and he arguably has a weaker squad than Jose had last season to do it with, now they want to weaken him further.
Has he left yet?
Im not falling into any trap neither am I saying we have a plan. Im simply saying what we need to do
Regardless if Ole stays or not. We will be in a much better position with Greenwood James and Gomes more established than Sanchez still being here
Yes, but it's usually backed up with quality experienced players, now they have to be good enough or we've had it.
Fair enough, I just hope the club share your thoughts.
So what is the potential deal? That Inter will take him on loan and pay his wages which be lowered/less taxed in the process?
What deal? He’s not going nowhere.
Reports on Italian media saying medical scheduled for Tuesday. Don't know if it s true or not
Shades of 95/96 for me, albeit I think the challenge and expectation is Top 4 rather than Title.
Ince, Kanchelskis and Hughes out the door with Beckham, Scholes, Neville and Butt in all aged between 18 and 21.
There wasn’t much beyond Keane in the centre of midfield with 22 year old Giggs and 24 year old Sharpe our experience out wide.
Despite that Ferguson trusted that those young players could be trusted and at worst would gain valuable experience while failing.
I feel like that’s where we are further up the pitch this year.
I guess that's the difference between us, you see it as the club losing Fellaini, Herrera, Lukaku and Sanchez (possibly) and I see it as us getting rid of them. Throwing them out of the door to put it bluntly. None of those players would make the starting 11, thus making them surplus to requirements. Their inclusion in the squad serving only to hinder the progression of the young and hungry academy grads. I do think not bringing in a new central midfielder this summer could prove costly though. Having to rely on Matic, Periera and Fred is not overly inspiring.
I don't disagree with you here. The top leagues in Europe are generally won by the team with most expensive squad. But we tried the galactico approach, spending in the region of £800 million quid on superstar players, and it got us absolutely nowhere. I expect this 'buy young and promote from within' policy to last until Ole finishes his full first season in charge, after which he will be granted a far larger 'war chest' to work with the following summer. Assuming that his performance, or rather the teams performance, is up to scratch of course or the club don't recruit a DoF. I think the board want to see what he can do with the current crop of players before investing heavily in him. Ole can blame his predecessors (and Ed) for the boards more cautious approach to transfer market expenditure these days.
I can't speak for everyone but I'm happy to spend a couple more years in the wilderness as long as the club is progressing in the right direction. Let's face it, Woody's galactico approach has failed drastically, enough that he should lose his job for it. But we all know that will never happen.
Even with Sanchez in the squad, if one of Martial or Rashford were to be injured (or just rested), I would still prefer the following options before starting Sanchez:
1. Play James
2. Play Gomes
3. Play Greenwood
4. Play with a false-nine
Injuries and suspensions are always an opportunity for young players to step up. We have three or four youngsters who need competitive game time to reach their next stage of development, and who have shown potential to justify game time for its own sake. If we start a consistently underwhelming senior player ahead of them purely because they are unproven, then our youth development aspirations are nothing but empty words.
1. Play James
2. Play Gomes
3. Play Greenwood
4. Play with a false-nine
Injuries and suspensions are always an opportunity for young players to step up. We have three or four youngsters who need competitive game time to reach their next stage of development, and who have shown potential to justify game time for its own sake. If we start a consistently underwhelming senior player ahead of them purely because they are unproven, then our youth development aspirations are nothing but empty words.
You could even play Mata as a false 9 if push came to shove.
We got a player with 6 months left on his current contract who had not shown any interest in playing for Arsenal, he made it clear he wanted to leave that summer. Instead Arsenal got a player who seemed to be just the player they needed to replace Sanchez off us in return rather than lose Sanchez on a free when he clearly wasn't worth keeping till then.
Let's not lie to ourselves that we bought him, he was a straight swap with a wage increase.
Mata was the last player to move and even then we only got him because Jose had no plans for him. He seemed desperate to offload Mata.
Edit: when a club is willing to offload one of their key players in January, something must be going wrong or you end up paying well over the odds.
Whats the point in having depth when the depth is pish.
We have been waiting for him to come good for a year and a half and we are still yet to see any sort of form from him aside from a few goals here and there
We have been waiting for him to come good for a year and a half and we are still yet to see any sort of form from him aside from a few goals here and there
Exactly this.
It's not depth if the depth is always injured and then when he does play he's fecking rubbish.
The timing is not ideal. If you were going to get rid of him you should have brought in somone else.
Excluding Sanchez, we have 3 senior level players and 3 youngsters who can play in the 3 forward spots. With Europa league that's asking for trouble if 1 player gets injured, which will happen.
Do I think we should keep Alexis at his inflated wages? No, but we don't have a choice right now. Stupid squad management. Another example why a DOF is needed.
Excluding Sanchez, we have 3 senior level players and 3 youngsters who can play in the 3 forward spots. With Europa league that's asking for trouble if 1 player gets injured, which will happen.
Do I think we should keep Alexis at his inflated wages? No, but we don't have a choice right now. Stupid squad management. Another example why a DOF is needed.
Why do you continue to bring up this u23 point? Nobody cares about the team that was managed by football dinosaur Sbragia. None of us want Ercolani playing for the first team. None of us are expecting Bohui to play for the first team (even though he left). What we care about are the top talents. And Gomes was great all season. He's the last person you can blame for the team not doing good. Greenwood hardly played for the u23s too, but yes he would have been a better option than Burkart.
It's not really some high standard they need to meet to replace Sanchez. 18 year old Rashford was better than last season's Sanchez. 18 year old Januzaj was as good as last season's Sanchez. Why is it now impossible for Greenwood to be a better option than last season's Sanchez?
Furthermore, we have 3 striker options in Martial, Rashford, and Greenwood. Greenwood is literally the 3rd option for the 9 position. We're not asking him to be the main guy. And for the wide positions we have James, Mata, Dalot, Martial, Rashford, Lingard, etc... It's not like there is no overlap in our squad options. Many of them play different positions.
I feel like the pro-Sanchez crowd is using this mythical Sanchez against youngsters. In reality, replacing this real Sanchez is very easy. A youngster performing like crap = providing what Sanchez provided. The only difference is that he's young and Sanchez is older. How is this not getting through to some of you?
edit: Just to be clear, I wouldn't be arguing this if it was Lukaku. With Lukaku it's easily understandable why some wouldn't want him away with no replacement. He's actually produced at a level that can't be produced by a young player. Sanchez though? I'm not having that.
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Wait people want Sánchez to... stay?
I don’t get it.
I don’t get it.
Me neither. Apparently he needs to stay, presumably so that he can play games of football for us. Which has never gone well in the past.
It's a major issue in my mind. I've only been arguing that selling Lukaku & Sanchez aren't bad moves for the club. Not signing a midfielder or two is horrible. I think the club has a plan, but couldn't get the players in or didn't want to get players in before getting rid of Sanchez and Lukaku from the wage list. All speculation though on my end.
Apparently we need him for depth because a youngster can't provide *checks notes* 2 goals and 4 assists.
We need to get rid of him ASAP.
Of course it'll leave us short up front until at least January. However, it's clearly not going to work for Sanchez here. The guys has been absolutely useless since the moment he has arrived. He seems to be upsetting the dressing room as he did at Arsenal and he is certainly upsetting the wage structure.
I'd say i'd drive him to Milan myself, but with the money we've paid him he can fly.
Of course it'll leave us short up front until at least January. However, it's clearly not going to work for Sanchez here. The guys has been absolutely useless since the moment he has arrived. He seems to be upsetting the dressing room as he did at Arsenal and he is certainly upsetting the wage structure.
I'd say i'd drive him to Milan myself, but with the money we've paid him he can fly.
Greenwood, Martial, Rashford injured
Sanchez sold
Lingard
Pogba
Dalot Fred McTominay James
Shaw Lindelof Maguire AWB
DDG
That would still do a job, honestly. We'll make do without Sanchez. I would love for him to succeed here but the odds are against. I'd rather cut the loss early, keep 7 and 11 open and look to the future.
Sanchez sold
Lingard
Pogba
Dalot Fred McTominay James
Shaw Lindelof Maguire AWB
DDG
That would still do a job, honestly. We'll make do without Sanchez. I would love for him to succeed here but the odds are against. I'd rather cut the loss early, keep 7 and 11 open and look to the future.
It depends a lot on the conditions for the potential deal. There is no point in sending him on loan if we still will be paying a major part of his astronomical wages, unless he is a disruptive force in the dressing room of course. If he is prepared to take a pay cut to move to Inter well then it is a no-brainer since his contribution will be limited, as you point out. I would even support a move where we pay a minor part of the wages just to get rid.
If Inter pay his full wages we save £18mil. If Inter pay part of his wages, we could potentially save £10mil. 10 is a lot and could potentially help us spend next summer. Especially if we're in for Sancho.
He has been a scandalous signing and we desperately need to get rid of him. If someone is willing to take him on a free (and pay his wages or most of it) we should snap off their entire arm, and a big chunk of their torso.
I find hypocritical that people use stats to attack Sanchez knowing fully well that the guy has been injured for a big chunk of his stay here, that we had 2 managers in 18 months and that all recent players bought from Mourinho had struggled because of this. What's truly fascinating is that the same people who does that, don't really want us to use that same method to be used against our beloved youngsters. Cause lets face it, the results at youth level aren't that great. The U23 has been in shambles while the U18 has ended 4th in the North league (ie that exclude Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea etc) and had their arse handled to them by Shitty in a 3-0 defeat at the U18 league cup. Our best scorer was Greenwood at 15 goals. Ah Greenwood the guy whom by the posts in here is some sort of Henry, Jesus and RVN wrapped in one. It turned out that he's 4th top scorer at U18 (NORTH EDITION) and he had scored 16 goals less then Simms. So the situation is really simple here. Since these guy has near zilc experience at first team level and the results at youth level aren't that great, then on which criteria should we trust these guys to step up and replace Lukaku, Sanchez, Herrera, Fellaini and co? Believe?
Don't take me wrong I do think that there's some talent at academy level but lets be realistic here. There's no class of 92 coming up. That class won youth FA cup and everyone knew we were at the brink of something special. Also what we're asking from these kids is beyond what we asked from the class of 92 way back. Gaz, Becks and co were older then the current kids when they first burst into scene, they were bedded in slowly, they played in a less competitive league then it is now and of course they were surrounded by absolute talents like (Schmeichel, Bruce, Pally, Irwin, Keane, Ince (in Giggs case), Cantona etc) which included a real manager.
In reality this is not about Sanchez. I mean, if the club bothered at least replacing Lukaku and bring in a much needed RW then every one would have been on board on this. This is about a team who lack talent, a team which was further impoverished with Herrera, Fellaini and Lukaku leaving and not adequately replaced and look set to lose Sanchez as well. Sure Sanchez may be finished, which I really doubt considering Conte wants him and he has far more experience then us, the board and little Ole combined. However, since we lack talent and numbers then Id rather keep the forwards we've got and hope at least one of them shows brilliance then keep losing players for Woody to look good when showing his spreadsheet. Sanchez even at 40% is better then most of the players we got and lets face it fans are fickle. If they had their way Martial and Pogba wouldn't be here as well. Look at them now. They are our saviours.
Regarding Sbragia, the least said about managers and their records the betters. Don't forget our own guy got his arse handled with Cardiff and he was busy rotting at Molde until we showed up. I honestly don't understand the criteria of how United hire this day when, of course, they do bother hiring
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Sanchez has been useless for us at best and actively harmful to any style of play we hope to achieve at worst. If we don't get rid of him, and soon, we're going to get stuck with him for the rest of his insane contract. Anyone harboring any hope that he's going to come good again is insane. Get rid while we still can and give the youngsters a chance at least until January.
I've already told you that Sanchez wasn't the only player playing through 2 managerial changes. He was the worst of all the players. That also wasn't his first season with United. He had a half season with us so he technically had more time with Mourinho than Fred and Dalot. Nevermind the fact that we're discussing a potential deal to get Sanchez away, not for Fred or Dalot and nevermind the fact that Sanchez is on bigger wages and is older than those 2 players. Plus, we already bought a replacement for Dalot in AWB. Clearly we weren't happy with his production and mostly everyone here is pissed we didn't buy a replacement for Herrera because we're not believers in Fred. Difference is there is depth in regards to our attack compared to our midfield. There is no depth in our midfield whatsoever. Not the same argument in this Sanchez conversation.
And what are you talking about regarding our youngsters? Use stats in what way? Go ahead and use stats against them. It's not like they have to produce Golden Boy type stats. Sanchez had 2 goals and 4 assists last season. A youngster on like £15k a week is much more preferable to a guy making £350k a week to produce that.
Again, stop using team stats regarding the youth players. Nobody cares about what the team accomplishes. We care about the very best talents. Gomes did his job. Greenwood barely played for the u23s. None of them are to blame for the team failing. Blame the other players who failed to produce. Greenwood and Gomes aren't better than our u21's who won the title back in 2013? Why? Because their team didn't do as well? No. Because they had a better coach in 2013 and Januzaj had a better supporting cast than Gomes and Greenwood. What matters is our top talents at youth level, not results. Otherwise, you may as well crown whoever wins the u17 world cup as the next best side. But that's not how it works clearly.
Stop talking nonsense. You clearly have no idea what's going on at youth level if you're bringing those kids into the conversation. I'll quickly argue in Greenwood's favor.
First of all, let's look at age of all these strikers last season
Greenwood - 17 years old October birthday
Simms - 18 years old January birthday
Balogun - 17 years old July birthday
Duncan - 17 years old June birthday
Whitaker - 18 years old January birthday
*Greenwood's favor. Simms is about 10 months older than Greenwood.
Lets look at scoring/assisting records of these strikers for u18 level.
Greenwood - 34 goals, 9 assists in 34 matches
Simms - 41 goals, 3 assists in 44 matches
Balogun - 38 goals, 8 assists in 41 matches
Duncan - 23 goals, 8 assists in 26 matches
Whitaker - 31 goals, 13 assists in 51 matches
*Greenwood's favor
Same but u19 level (europe)
Greenwood - 5 goals, 1 assist in 5 matches
Simms - didn't participate
Balogun - didn't participate
Duncan - 2 goals in 7 matches
Whitaker - didn't participate
*Greenwood's favor
Same but for u23 level
Greenwood - 3 goals, 2 assists in 6 matches
Simms - 0 goals in 4 matches
Balogun - 5 goals in 13 matches
Duncan - 0 goals in 5 matches
Whitaker - 1 assist in 7 matches
*Greenwood's favor
Goals/Assists per match at u18 level
Greenwood - 1.26
Simms - 1.00
Balogun - 1.12
Duncan - 1.19
Whitaker - 0.86
At u23 level
Greenwood - 0.83
Simms - 0.00
Balogun - 0.38
Duncan - 0.00
Whitaker - 0.14
This is clearly in Greenwood's favor. You only looked at last season's stats even though all 3 participated in the u18s the season prior. No matter how you look at it, Greenwood despite being the youngest had the most impressive stats. A goal for every game and more assists than the others. Yes, Greenwood at age 16 was more impressive than those other kids at the same age at u18 level.
Now what about technique? Go and watch those players and Greenwood is the better technician. This is what stats don't tell you. You have to watch them to see this. Nobody just looks at scoring record and then concludes which player is better. They look at the complete package. Simms is like Chicharito in comparison. He's not Rashford level of technique, nevermind Greenwood's level of technique. He's like Lukaku except Lukaku was the much more impressive goal scorer at the same age.
You're so caught up in this argument that you felt the need to tear down a brilliant prospect even though you really don't know much about these kids.
Nobody is asking them to produce at the class of 92 level. They're being asked to produce at Sanchez's 2 goals and 4 assists level. 18 year old Januzaj did better than Sanchez. 18 year old Januzaj under Moyes had 4 goals and 6 assists. 18 year old Rashford did better than that Sanchez. Why is it all of a sudden impossible for the more impressive Greenwood? He had a much better goal scoring record at youth level than Rashford and he was also at a younger age.
No, Sanchez at 40% is not better than most players. Arsenal Sanchez was. Not United Sanchez. United's Sanchez had 2 goals and 4 assists!! He was our worst player and making the most money. And all of our players played under the same circumstances as Sanchez did. They still managed to perform better than him.
This is the crux of the argument. You keep having this belief that Sanchez is much better than he currently is and none of the evidence in the past 1.5 years supports that.
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Wow, you seem really pissed off. I generally enjoy your posts but I don't agree with most of this. It's missing the reality of our season. Whether or not we keep Sanchez, we are not winning the title this season. If that's the case, we need to get into the top 4 or win the Europa League. Champions league next season is all we are playing for this time around. If the squad can stay close to the top of the league till January, it will be a big bonus and an opportunity to strengthen the weak areas once again.
Given this, it does not matter if we keep Sanchez, who basically hasn't played at all under Ole. The few times he has, he has looked off the pace and not gelled with the team.
Ole is taking a big risk if he let's Sanchez go, but he is looking at long term squad building. He doesn't really want a squad player with a disruptive wage to stick around. Sanchez may come good, but it's not worth keeping him if he isn't showing the determination and work rate in training, and not performing in games.
I'm surprised you've underrated our youngsters the way you have. Mason scored 17 goals in 21 appearances (including 4 sub appearances) last year. That's impressive by any standards. His game time was managed well last season to keep him developing, including lots if gym work for strength etc. That's a sign of good youth development. How many of the academy players for Chelsea, City and Spurs have you seen come good over the last 5 years, despite them winning the trophies regularly at that level?
Anyway, only time will tell if Sanchez is transferred. I will support him if he stays, as he could really be a difference maker in this squad on top form (although unlikely). But if he leaves, I will fully support Ole for making this change.
Still can’t believe how some here would prefer Sanchez, arguably the biggest flop in history of Man United, to Greenwood, arguably our best young talent in nearly a decade.
It’s just so they have a reason to moan about something. Sanchez is done here, if we need extra numbers I’d play Chong Gomes and of course Greenwood before him. With Lingard, Mata, James, Rashford, Martial and even Dalot as an option, he won’t be missed. 5 goals in 45 games and some are still worried we will miss him? Wish it had turned out better as he was one hell of a player with emphasis on the was. We both need to move on from one another.
Anyone that genuinely prefers an Alexis Sanchez who has 6 goals and assists combined in 1/1/2 years at Utd over a prospect like Mason Greenwood deserves Mourinho and his short term philosophy
Must have been the same people that wanted a Martial/Willian swap
Must have been the same people that wanted a Martial/Willian swap
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Some valid points on either side of the youth/experience debate, but I’m very much in favour of shipping Sanchez out. Players like Matic and Mata are the kind of good, experienced pros it could be beneficial to keep around. Play here and there and mentor the younger lads. I don’t see Sanchez doing that. He’ll be on the bench with a face like a slapped a**e and most likely being a disruptive influence behind the scenes.
Yes, we’re a bit light, but his presence is a problem and if we can solve that problem by shipping him out, we should.
Yes, we’re a bit light, but his presence is a problem and if we can solve that problem by shipping him out, we should.
Its like some didnt watch us in last 2 year or something. Making it sound like we are getting rid of Ronaldo and not replacing him with properly. Lets stop with this bullshit how everyone wanna see Pogba (for example) out and replaced with some kid instead of reinvesting the money gained.
We are not here talking about players who performed ok more or less in our under performing seasons. So yea if you ask me would i rather see Garner or Matic on the bench (seems how it looks at the moment if Ole doesnt go crazy and starts giving Matic spot in first XI), feck yea i would, would sell Matic now without even thinking and give his spot to Garner, are you fecking kidding me. Same goes for Darmian and similar.
We are not here talking about Sanchez in his prime from Arsenal days, from very first day with us he looked like some copy version made in China. When it comes to those players on that level and us losing their experience, experience of what exactly? Them being there done that when they were able to, thats about it.
Also doubt many are against reinvesting money and getting players who are better than our kids ( maybe not in ever single case ) and way better than players we got rid of but until that moment rather see kids either on the bench or starting than some overpaid clowns who cant perform week in week out and are only good at making statements like how it wasnt good enough today but they promise that in 7 days they will give 110% and make it up for today, just for us to watch them next week performing even worse, feck that.
We are not here talking about players who performed ok more or less in our under performing seasons. So yea if you ask me would i rather see Garner or Matic on the bench (seems how it looks at the moment if Ole doesnt go crazy and starts giving Matic spot in first XI), feck yea i would, would sell Matic now without even thinking and give his spot to Garner, are you fecking kidding me. Same goes for Darmian and similar.
We are not here talking about Sanchez in his prime from Arsenal days, from very first day with us he looked like some copy version made in China. When it comes to those players on that level and us losing their experience, experience of what exactly? Them being there done that when they were able to, thats about it.
Also doubt many are against reinvesting money and getting players who are better than our kids ( maybe not in ever single case ) and way better than players we got rid of but until that moment rather see kids either on the bench or starting than some overpaid clowns who cant perform week in week out and are only good at making statements like how it wasnt good enough today but they promise that in 7 days they will give 110% and make it up for today, just for us to watch them next week performing even worse, feck that.
Good post. I agree with almost everything, rating players based on team's performance is silly, especially at youth level.
Sanchez has been a disaster for ManUtd and don't think many even remember him as ManUtd player. Even if he scores shit loads of goals for Inter, it shouldn't change anything, he wasn't good enough for ManUtd and more often than not, he was a liability on the pitch.
Mediocre and low-performing institutions are wedded to structures of seniority because they cannot recruit top-level young talent. Because elite institutions can recruit top-level talent, they give young people much more responsibility much younger.
Lukaku at Chelsea and Alexis at Barcelona were evaluated at big clubs as not being elite-level talent (so was Morata at Real). Because Mourinho was so short-term and self-serving in his thinking, he just wanted to bring in players who could help him now. Van Gaal was much better about this aspect of management (had terrible tactics, though) but wasn't given the time and the top-level talent (Paddy McNair??) to implement his vision.
Utd has suffered over the last 6 years because the cost associated with having established players who are not performing around our club is huge, unmeasurable and lasts for a long time.
We see this movement as going back to our roots, but it is actually us becoming an elite institution again. Long may it continue.
Lukaku at Chelsea and Alexis at Barcelona were evaluated at big clubs as not being elite-level talent (so was Morata at Real). Because Mourinho was so short-term and self-serving in his thinking, he just wanted to bring in players who could help him now. Van Gaal was much better about this aspect of management (had terrible tactics, though) but wasn't given the time and the top-level talent (Paddy McNair??) to implement his vision.
Utd has suffered over the last 6 years because the cost associated with having established players who are not performing around our club is huge, unmeasurable and lasts for a long time.
We see this movement as going back to our roots, but it is actually us becoming an elite institution again. Long may it continue.
Why not take Ribery on a 12 month contract?
There is no point of letting him go on loan while we still pay him. Feck Inter. If we are still paying him, I'd rather he stays and be an option.