Bury - EFL to discuss re-entry to L2 | and Bolton - sold

Sandikan

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Very trying circumstances of course, but pulling out the day before a game is a poor show from Bolton. No regard for the league, or their opponents, or the fans!

Has to be the game awarded to Doncaster.

More importantly, after Bolton looked like they were on the right tracks this is a massive blow.
 

Tom Cato

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I havent bothered to look up Steve Dale, but who in gods name did he take over a club when he lacks the financial muscle to grow his investment? Or better yet, why was he even allowed to in the first place?
 

AlwaysRed66

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The only place the Bury owner should be is in a prison cell. Total scum bag. The laws in this country are on the side of slimy asset strippers like this.

I really feel sorry for Bury fans, & also for Bolton fans.
 

jojojo

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Great info @jojojo how much do you think it would cost to buy?
We're into the realms of guesswork in a game of chicken there. On the face of it, the club's only assets are its name and the FL membership and there's a lot of debt attached to all other assets like the stadium - maybe around £10m needed to get the club back in new ownership and into playing action?

I've seen someone suggest that for around £3m it may be possible to buy the club (or pay the ransom as someone described it) and then immediately hand it to administrators. I would think it's unlikely that they would be allowed to retain their League place if that happened, coming at this point in the season - but it might mean the club survives in some form. Though I'm not sure what the mechanism/law is to make them think the administrators would want to do that.
 

jojojo

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This is a joke, right?
Just by way of comparison between life amongst the minnows versus life amongst the big fish like us. An accumulated profit/loss rendition of the clubs currently in the top two divisions that caught my eye.


On that accumulated profit/loss chart Bury would sit somewhere around the Preston/Forest sort of position. It's all about percentages and turnover of course. A very different world, but interesting to see just how few clubs make profits, despite the TV money etc.
 

FootballHQ

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I remember years back Man. United playing Bury in fund raising friendly (not sayinh you should do that now btw but they've had two other major cash crisis's in last 20 years).

Bury is club that barely gets over 3k yet they were paying first team players 4k a week in last few years, had Jermaine Beckford playing for them. That is a ridiculous high weekly wage for a league one club, Sunderland can pay more but then they do get 30k a week....

Bury will go same way as Stockport County I think, out of football league and have to rebuild for a few years.

Bolton is the new Portsmouth. Relegated from premier league, couldn't get back up and then the bills catch up with you. Will probably be in league 2 bottom half for a year or two and then start risiing up the leagues again as Pompey are starting to do now.
 

Rood

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We're into the realms of guesswork in a game of chicken there. On the face of it, the club's only assets are its name and the FL membership and there's a lot of debt attached to all other assets like the stadium - maybe around £10m needed to get the club back in new ownership and into playing action?

I've seen someone suggest that for around £3m it may be possible to buy the club (or pay the ransom as someone described it) and then immediately hand it to administrators. I would think it's unlikely that they would be allowed to retain their League place if that happened, coming at this point in the season - but it might mean the club survives in some form. Though I'm not sure what the mechanism/law is to make them think the administrators would want to do that.
I saw a few numbers in this article after his TalkSport interview - debt level of £13m is mentioned, that can usually be negotiated down though with creditors ready to take a cut rather than get nothing

Also seems it comes down to the EFL asking Dale for £1.6m proof of funds which he hasnt come up with - he argues that it is not needed and he has a business plan to get the club operating for a lot less but that the EFL wont accept it.

https://talksport.com/football/efl/583124/bury-owner-steve-dale-efl-agenda-jim-white/
 

jojojo

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No one is going to pay to buy Bury and take all those debts onboard. They’re fecked.
That's the bottom line I think. There's no football business case for anyone to buy Bury and even sympathetic rescuers would find it hard to operate the club at break even, so buying the whole debt would be just dead money - almost literally a labour of love.
 

Bwuk

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Feel sorry for their fans.

Despite how awful our owners are, thankfully we’ll never have this happen to us.
 

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Let's say they found a buyer, am I right in saying they would still struggle to participate in the league this season? They have been deducted 12 points and have missed the first 6 games of the season. Are these games going to be replayed or have the points already been allocated to other sides? If they are to be played in that league with all the games there are and the Checkatrade and FA Cup etc they will pretty much be playing twice a week, god knows the state of the squad and major catch up. Would almost be unfair on them although I guess that's the least of the worries if the club were to lose its place in the league.
 

jojojo

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Let's say they found a buyer, am I right in saying they would still struggle to participate in the league this season? They have been deducted 12 points and have missed the first 6 games of the season. Are these games going to be replayed or have the points already been allocated to other sides? If they are to be played in that league with all the games there are and the Checkatrade and FA Cup etc they will pretty much be playing twice a week, god knows the state of the squad and major catch up. Would almost be unfair on them although I guess that's the least of the worries if the club were to lose its place in the league.
I think there's a general assumption that Bury (and Bolton) will go down - if they survive that long. The combination of the points deduction and the loss of their senior players makes it almost inevitable.
 

0161_UNITED

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I hate seeing clubs with long histories being destroyed like this - 135 years in Bury's case. Terrible for the supporters and the town.
Got into a convo here ages ago where I said FFP should’ve been structured and intended to prevent things like this happening, rather than pretending they’re fighting a losing battle against the likes of PSG and City.

Well, City and PSG are still going strong and healthier than ever, and two more clubs with proper support and heartbroken kids are heading for receivership.
 

fergiesarmy1

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He seems a real scumbag, bought the club for a quid and wants millions to get out of the club and apparently has a track record of this kind of strategy. Eight out of nine times apparently in the non football business world.
 

0161_UNITED

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He seems a real scumbag, bought the club for a quid and wants millions to get out of the club and apparently has a track record of this kind of strategy. Eight out of nine times apparently in the non football business world.
Wrong. Apparently castigating Gary Neville is haute couture these days, instead of discussing this bottom feeder.
 

fergiesarmy1

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Wrong. Apparently castigating Gary Neville is haute couture these days, instead of discussing this bottom feeder.
Used to work in bury so don’t like seeing this, went there a few times when the FC united thing all started as I was in the area. That must have provided a few quid back in the day.
 

0161_UNITED

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Used to work in bury so don’t like seeing this, went there a few times when the FC united thing all started as I was in the area. That must have provided a few quid back in the day.
Not concerned with the money. Just a sad state of affairs to watch a football club dissolve from any fans’ perspective. Nothing to do with United.
 

FootballHQ

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I think there's a general assumption that Bury (and Bolton) will go down - if they survive that long. The combination of the points deduction and the loss of their senior players makes it almost inevitable.
Bury will be expelled from the league I imagine and have to start somewhere again in non league.

Think if Bolton sort things out quickly they can just play out this season and rebuild properly in league 2.
 

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Has there ever been a situation like Bury where we are this far into the season and they haven't played a game?

Very unlikely that they survive at this point - especially crazy seeing as they just got promoted!
 

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Errrr.... Am I missing something here? If he bought the club for £1 and his DLA is in credit for £3.6m then he's lost a hell of a lot of money by taking over this club. Everyone seems to be talking like he's some kind of parasite but if this report is accurate it looks to me like he just made a stupid decision to buy an awfully run football club, never got to grips with the problem and he's now trying to not lose everything he put into Bury. He's been there for less than 9 months so he clearly didn't cause these financial problems either. If I've got the wrong end of the stick I reserve my right to call him a parasitic feck.
 

jojojo

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Errrr.... Am I missing something here? If he bought the club for £1 and his DLA is in credit for £3.6m then he's lost a hell of a lot of money by taking over this club. Everyone seems to be talking like he's some kind of parasite but if this report is accurate it looks to me like he just made a stupid decision to buy an awfully run football club, never got to grips with the problem and he's now trying to not lose everything he put into Bury. He's been there for less than 9 months so he clearly didn't cause these financial problems either. If I've got the wrong end of the stick I reserve my right to call him a parasitic feck.
The reality is nobody knows what he's actually put into the club. There's no sign that he's put anything in. I'm fact it appears there's been a net flow out in his direction - including the club's trophies and archive moved into another company and maybe the prize money from promotion as well.

It's thought he bought the old directors' loans (loans of around £7m) at a very heavily discounted rate (maybe even with payment to be settled later at a percentage of the final earning) prior to the CVA that reduced their book value to 25% of that £7m. The idea is to make money on the gap between the debt purchase price and the CVA or insolvency price obtained. He put this debt into the name of a company in his son-in-law's name formed the day before the CVA hearing.

When the CVA appeared in front of the business court in Manchester, an additional loan debt had appeared - £3.6m owed to Dale, which would become £900k following the CVA. The court didn't allow the £3.6m debt to be used on voting on the CVA as its existence seemed unclear and it appeared to be double counting of other debts.

It looks like someone has offered to cover the rest of the debt including the original directors'loans at the 25% discounted CVA rate but (like the court) sees that new £3.6m/£900k as a leap too far. On the face of it, Dale is betting on someone rich and emotionally invested cracking in the game of chicken and just giving him the money.

Of course, him and his son in law may genuinely have invested millions in it. It just seems unlikely as his previous businesses are either bankrupt or in receivership, and there's no much sign of the club paying its bills - certainly not bills in excess of the club's normal ticket income etc.
 

neilv93

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I remember years back Man. United playing Bury in fund raising friendly (not sayinh you should do that now btw but they've had two other major cash crisis's in last 20 years).

Bury is club that barely gets over 3k yet they were paying first team players 4k a week in last few years, had Jermaine Beckford playing for them. That is a ridiculous high weekly wage for a league one club, Sunderland can pay more but then they do get 30k a week....

Bury will go same way as Stockport County I think, out of football league and have to rebuild for a few years.

Bolton is the new Portsmouth. Relegated from premier league, couldn't get back up and then the bills catch up with you. Will probably be in league 2 bottom half for a year or two and then start risiing up the leagues again as Pompey are starting to do now.
I think you're probably right, that's a path I can see both clubs following. It's a massive shame - for Bolton, as I remember Big Sam's Kevin Davies-led team beating Atleti in the EL only about 12 or so years ago (2007 I think?) and now they've plummeted so far, it's sad to see. Bury, I have some sympathy for but I also think if you knowingly take the risk of spending far beyond your means (they're a tiny club in reality) then you run the risk of leaving yourself in this type of situation. Still, to see them close to going out of business etc. isn't nice and I wouldn't wish that on any fan.

As a Bristol Rovers fan, I worry myself. Decreasing attendances (largely because we're managed by a glorified PE teacher who plays three DMs at home) and an ever-growing debt, coupled with a known tendency to overpay journeyman means we could be one of the next on the chopping block.
 

jojojo

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I think the real story is that a lot of clubs are one owner from closure. Whether that owner's bad because he's corrupt, or because he overspends, or because he's just one man and if his health declines it can all fall apart, if only because his family don't share his enthusiasm or his priorities.

Clubs are mostly just collections of limited companies. Most of those are closed companies with minimal transparency and accountability. The multiple company structures disguise assets and debts, and confuse the money flow and turnover. The lower League clubs are legally no different to other small businesses. Only their fans think they're something else.

So yeah, it's "Bury FC's" own fault - but even McDonalds have better vetting for would be franchisees.
 

jojojo

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It looks like yesterday's rejected bidder was Norman Smurthwaite, former Chairman of Port Vale. Based on the comments from Port Vale fans, that's an out of the frying pan and into the fire sort of proposition - prolonging the story rather than giving it a happy ending.

Les Sealey's son meanwhile apparently tried to buy the club a few weeks back - offering to pick up the debt and guarantee the operating costs for a time until it could function as a stable business again, however Dale wanted a £1m on top. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...ted-son-ex-Man-Utd-goalkeeper-Les-Sealey.html

Whether it's the £900k figure for an unknown and undocumented debt that the Smurthwaite bid failed on or the £1m price tag that Sealey said was the price he got told. Either way what it sounds like is Dale is holding out for something round the £1m mark and sees it as his reward for getting the CVA agreed.

Meanwhile the local MP, James Firth, says that negotiations with another group continue:

Pretty soon we will know whether Dale was just playing chicken and will do a deal somewhere between £1 and £1m or whether actually he already knows how to extract more money from the club by letting it collapse, and therefore is just playing some kind of game.
 

DavidDeSchmikes

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Companies House records show that of Dale's 13 director appointments since 2011, eight have ended with a business being dissolved