How far can we go without attacking fullbacks?

Long term I think they have to buy an upgrade on Shaw for the LB, one that is competent at both ends. AWB is fantastic.

SirAF said:

Long term I think they have to buy an upgrade on Shaw for the LB, one that is competent at both ends. AWB is fantastic.

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^^This^^
But at the moment, too many other issues, even more urgent, to deal with.

Shaw needs to do more of what he did for the first goal. That dummy over lapping run at speed was exactly why we scored.

He only does it 1 or 2 times a match if we're lucky.

Wan Bissaka is a fantastic all round player and I think he will get better going forward, but I doubt he will ever develop his crossing ability to be TAA levels.

They don't have to be the next Roberto Carlos, just keep adding good runs and linking up play for the forwards.

SirAF said:

Long term I think they have to buy an upgrade on Shaw for the LB, one that is competent at both ends. AWB is fantastic.

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Shaw just doesn't attack as much as the other flank. Don't know why, it's been the case for a couple of seasons now.

Given that he has speed and a decent left foot, it's mystifying. I hope Williams can make the breakthrough

Only took 1 post to see a Luke Shaw is the problem post

City are an anomaly due to how they play. Pool have Milner and Henderson, Fabinho and Winaldjum who do a lot of defensive work allowing TA and Robertson to do what they do. If you want that let’s take Pogba out stick McT, Fred and Matic in midfield tell them to hang back and tell Bissaka and Shaw to operate as wingers instead of them filling in the defence making it a back 3 or filling in midfield protecting/reinforcing it.

Can see the way this thread is going to go already.

How exactly is Walker or Zinchenko an upgrade to Shaw or AWB ? Walker just had 1 assist last year.

The half way line I'd imagine.

City have just won back to back league titles and looked incredible without using attacking full backs. Last season it was Zinchenko and Walker, year before it was Walker and Delph. These players are not better going forwards than Shaw and Wan-Bissaka.

I remember using Walker in the summer as an example of why Wan-Bissaka would be an excellent signing for us when a load of posters were saying we shouldn't go near him because he wasn't a great attacker.

I was disappointed with Shaw yesterday. He looked gassed midway through the second half and I thought he looked positionally suspect several times. The goal came down his flank but most of our better wide play came from AWB and James's combination.

There's no doubt we have much to catch up on regarding how we use our fullbacks in attack, but whether that means further upgrades in first team starters depends more on Shaw for me, as AWB is fine.

Depends on what you want from your fullbacks. As posters above point out City's full backs didn't have many assists which is in stark contrast to Liverpool's fullbacks. But what you absolutely need from your full backs is to get involved in attacks, decent passing, overlapping runs to create space etc. Kinda like how Evra was for us or Cole was for Arsenal, never really a great crosser and never had a high number of assists. Which is not too much to ask from our full backs. Again like what Shaw did yesterday for the goal. Need more of that but then you can't have Pogba in a CM 2 for that who is not going to be the best at covering the fullbacks.

simplyared said:

I think this is a major issue for us.

We just don’t have that weapon going forward. Both City and Liverpool have it from both flanks.

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Both City and Liverpool play slightly differently to you at the moment. Their midfields consist of 1 deeper holding player, plus 2 other more box to box types. Out wide, they then have two wide forwards that cut inside and fullbacks that overlap.

The key parts of both City and Liverpool's systems is their holding midfielder and attacking fullbacks. You can't really have one without the other.

At the moment you have neither the fullbacks nor the holding midfield player to play like they do, so have to try and do it differently.

You seem to be setting up with more of a 4-2-3-1 formation (or 4-2-1-3 sometimes), meaning the fullbacks have to be more disciplined as there is not the same level of protection for the back 4 that someone like Fabinho or Fernandinho/Rodri provides.

Having a more solid back 4 allows another more attacking central midfield player, or 'number 10' type.

At the moment that is either Lingard, Mata or Pereira. I'm not sure they will give you enough, so not only do you not have the fullbacks or holding midfield player to play in the way City and Liverpool are playing, you also don't have an attacking midfield player that's going to make up for that elsewhere on the field in an alternative formation.

Having Bruno Fernandes in that advanced midfield position of a 4-2-3-1/4-2-1-3 would have made a big difference in my opinion.

So the long-term options are either sign a new attacking left-back AND a holding midfield player to play more like City and Liverpool, or stick with the 4-2-3-1 alternative and sign a top class attacking midfield player.

City invert the fullbacks to accentuate their incredible wing depth. Utd have zero wide players worth mentioning.

Andersons Dietician said:

Only took 1 post to see a Luke Shaw is the problem post

City are an anomaly due to how they play. Pool have Milner and Henderson, Fabinho and Winaldjum who do a lot of defensive work allowing TA and Robertson to do what they do. If you want that let’s take Pogba out stick McT, Fred and Matic in midfield tell them to hang back and tell Bissaka and Shaw to operate as wingers instead of them filling in the defence making it a back 3 or filling in midfield protecting/reinforcing it.

Can see the way this thread is going to go already.

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You really love him

Look, I’m not saying he’s shit but United could do better than him if/when they aspire to win the league/CL again. Like @Ikon said, it’s not the most pressing issue atm.

simplyared said:

I think this is a major issue for us.

We just don’t have that weapon going forward. Both City and Liverpool have it from both flanks.

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In a world where we only have 2 worthy CM's and 2 worthy attackers you think replacing our FB's is a major issue?

It isn’t just that the fullbacks aren’t attacking, it’s that we don’t move the ball quick enough. We struggle to get our fullbacks on the overlap where they have a clear chance to deliver effectively, and on the rare occasions we do we don’t have enough bodies in the box to count. You put TAA in our set up and his stats would look significantly worse. The one time we actually moved it with sufficient pace down the wings yesterday we scored from it.

I'm in the minority here, but I think Shaw's pretty good at starting attacks. He's got a decent eye for passes - not eye-catching crossfield passes, but quick useful balls into attackers' feet.

As for joining the attack, his shortcoming isn't his speed or technical abilities, but his fitness. He doesn't recover well, and tends to run out of steam around the 70th minute mark. As with Pogba, I think "less is more" applies to Shaw as well, in terms of when he ventures forward.

deleon said:

I'm in the minority here, but I think Shaw's pretty good at starting attacks. He's got a decent eye for passes - not eye-catching crossfield passes, but quick useful balls into attackers' feet.

As for joining the attack, his shortcoming isn't his speed or technical abilities, but his fitness. He doesn't recover well, and tends to run out of steam around the 70th minute mark. As with Pogba, I think "less is more" applies to Shaw as well, in terms of when he ventures forward.

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I am part of that Minority. Last season he played 2 wonderful balls to Rashford to run onto and score.

Let me say something that might upset a few. I personally don't think Shaw is all that bad, he makes those runs and links well with Martial and Rashford. However; has anyone thought that he gets caught out defensively because he is being left open? Rashford doesn't track back so he is having to deal with 2 v 1's for alot of the game. What is he meant to do when he is being left exposed like that? Pogba doesn't really help him out as the LCM either.

Shaw made a good run as part of our goal but his delivery when he gets in good positions is often poor. AWB is showing signs of his attacking game already improving IMO, by the end of the season hopefully his cross count will be much higher as it's only been 3 in the first 2 games I think, but at least they were good crosses, he's also slid some decent balls through the inside channel as well. At the moment it's a wait and see for me but Shaw has needed some competition at least for a while now, but fullback is nowhere near the big issue in this team, which is in the center of the park.

Don't think this is very fair on Wan-Bissaka who is basically finding his feet after playing for a conservative Palace team. He'll grow into the attacking game as the season progresses.

Shaw on the other hand is a poor defender and doesn't get forward because he's worried about getting caught out. We should look to replace him or at the very least get some competition in January if we can, if not definitely the summer.

Full backs are there to defend. If they can defend great. We have that with AWB. Attacking full back is just ‘modern’ hipster Football Manager talk

AWB is still really young and honestly I'd rather fix our issue of bleeding goals before worrying about his attacking. We still don't have a good RW yet either so not too sure if he's actually not able to perform the duty of an attacking fullback as of now. Shaw on the other hand has had years to improve and hasn't. Next summer I hope we look into at the very least proving competition for him at the position. His best run of form came when his contract was running down and he needed to prove he was worth his salary. Maybe that chance will motivate him again.

romufc said:

I am part of that Minority. Last season he played 2 wonderful balls to Rashford to run onto and score.

Let me say something that might upset a few. I personally don't think Shaw is all that bad, he makes those runs and links well with Martial and Rashford. However; has anyone thought that he gets caught out defensively because he is being left open? Rashford doesn't track back so he is having to deal with 2 v 1's for alot of the game. What is he meant to do when he is being left exposed like that? Pogba doesn't really help him out as the LCM either.

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Pogba plays on the right midfield in Ole's system.

AWB is fine going forward. He isnt Dani Alves but he is better at defending than Dani Alves has ever been.

Yesterday he could have gotten multiple assists if Lingard would be a better player or replaced with a better player.

Shaw is also fine for now since finding improvements for McT, the right winger position and mostly Lingard seem way more important.

Attacking full back? We lack good attackers. Compare us to City and not a single one of our attackers would get into their squad. Not first team, squad.

Snow said:

Attacking full back? We lack good attackers. Compare us to City and not a single one of our attackers would get into their squad. Not first team, squad.

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I rate Martial above Jesus. Ability wise. I think if you put Martial under Pep 2 years ago and Jesus under Mourinho you'd think that Martial should have been the one we got.

Snow said:

Attacking full back? We lack good attackers. Compare us to City and not a single one of our attackers would get into their squad. Not first team, squad.

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This is the kind of post that makes me happy just being myself.

Liverpool, City, Spurs, Chelsea, Arsenal (maybe, not sure), all deploy 3 central midfielders who function well together. United have rolled out two so far (Pogba + McTominay). There in lies the 'issue' or expectation of fullbacks.

Liverpool - Fabinho, Henderson, Wiljaldum
City - Rodri, Gundogun, KDB and/or Silva
Spurs - N'dombele, Winks or Sissoko, Eriksen
Chelsea - Kante, Jorginho and/or Barkley, Kovacic or Mount
Arsenal - Torreria, Xhaka, and/or Gunedouzi, Ceballos, Willock

Lingard or whoever plays that position for United is more CAM/SS. And the functionality of United's central midfield isn't as good as the other teams atm. When Traore came on yesterday, it immediately pushed back Shaw and stretched the midfield a little thin providing more space for Wolves and opening the game up for everyone. For years now, the right back for United has served as the outlet more than the left at least since Evra left the club. But then it also coincided with losing CMs like Scholes and then Carrick.

settembrini said:

City have just won back to back league titles and looked incredible without using attacking full backs. Last season it was Zinchenko and Walker, year before it was Walker and Delph. These players are not better going forwards than Shaw and Wan-Bissaka.

I remember using Walker in the summer as an example of why Wan-Bissaka would be an excellent signing for us when a load of posters were saying we shouldn't go near him because he wasn't a great attacker.

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Zinchenko goes central and helps with the distribution. Same with Delph. IIRC this was something that Guardiola started with at Bayern. For this to function and the fullbacks going centrally to be able to contribute and perform, they need to be able to pass. Which is something none of our fullbacks are good at.
Walker often becomes a part of a back 3 when they are on the ball, and with Citys ability to pass and move, the likes of De Bruyne can utilize the space that Walker would have otherwise occupied.

Inside forwards --> Space for fullbacks to attack in.
Wingers --> Fullbacks drifts central and operates like a deep sitting playmakers.

But comparing City, their positinal play and Guardiola to MUFC is not really a point. OGS wants players with pace over those with technical ability.

deleon said:

I'm in the minority here, but I think Shaw's pretty good at starting attacks. He's got a decent eye for passes - not eye-catching crossfield passes, but quick useful balls into attackers' feet.

As for joining the attack, his shortcoming isn't his speed or technical abilities, but his fitness. He doesn't recover well, and tends to run out of steam around the 70th minute mark. As with Pogba, I think "less is more" applies to Shaw as well, in terms of when he ventures forward.

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Agreed, but only partly. Shaw gets too little recognition for that part of his attacking contribution - those quick, diagonal ground passes directly to the feet. He does that well. The problem is what he does when he actually gets ahead of his man. His crossing at that point, no matter what technique he uses, is just really lacklustre, and very seldom leads to goal scoring opportunities, let alone goals. Usually it fails to beat the first man. He is also too defensive and risk-averse when attacking, which not only makes attacking play quite static, but at times also leads to difficult situations (Chelsea was an example of this).

AWB is incredible defensively. I'd say the best defensive fullback in the league.

However.....and sorry to upset some of the fanboys but he's not good enough with the ball. But we already should have known that. We definitely need to buy Sancho next summer if we get back in the CL.

AWB is a fantastic signing his attacking will get better over time. Our fullbacks are the last thing to worry about.

AWB is an excellent prospect for us and is one of the best defensive full backs around. It is important to remember he is still developing and hopefully can add more offensive qualities to his game.

Last season I was very impressed with Dalot going forward at times and believe he can be a great offensive option, although unlike AWB he may need to improve defensively.

I think Shaw would benefit from some real competition as we are clearly lacking in depth at left back.

The poor midfield has a bearing too

We play with just two midfielders - one of whom is Paul Pogba, so defensive cover from the fullbacks is imperative. I think with quality attacking options for the front-four and a top defensive midfielder, we could go places.

Shame we didnt snap tierny for 25 million, will end up now either be stick with shaw for the next 6-8 years or have to fork out 50-60 million for a new left back.

Our winger options is also poor, we only have rashford that is decent but tends to need to come inside to be really effective. Everything still points to using 3 at the back this season, we have 7 bloody centre backs and there is also darmian and Bissaka that are easily capable of playing as a right sided centre back, I would place Ashley young over shaw in the left sided wing back position as young has always been far better on the left than the right, on the right you have dalot that has looked good going forward.

I thought AWB did well last night in attack, the cross for Lingard's horror shot was brilliant and he had a few good passes into the box. He is an intelligent player and looks like someone who has a bit of vision. I think his attacking game will improve the longer he stays with us because I think at Palace the focus of training and even in game tactics weren't focused on improving his offensive traits. Shaw, on the other hand...

The Cat said:

AWB is a fantastic signing his attacking will get better over time. Our fullbacks are the last thing to worry about.

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Shaw attacking will get better too, by this logic.

Very far.

You don't need attacking fullbacks if you have great wingers/midfielders that can create chances. As mentioned before, City are a good example of a team that rely on their wingers to stretch the field or cut inside, depending on what the 8's are doing. They use their fullbacks more defensively.

I think we have the right set of fullbacks (if Shaw improves his fitness and delivery consistency). Then it will fall on Ole to create the right schemes that can make space for our fullbacks to do their thing, or get better attackers that are threatening enough to pin back their markers.