Defensive actions, FFS. I swear done people just wanna see a Rocky or terminator version of a CB in our team, without regard to true effectiveness.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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Now that Smalling and Jones are out of the way I wonder how long it will take for the caf to start on Lindelof
or has it started already?
or has it started already?
I dont think everything Mourinho says is correct. But Mourinho, unlike me and you, have seen him at training every day. He has a much better basic to evaluate. He probably even have test results. And it is also something that is actually measurable. Not abstract. To say, «I dont agree with him on that» says alot about your dogmatic approach to your agenda.
The reason I asked why it has to be «as few» is that is that the way you use statistics it appears you believe that the amount of defensive actions is a good messure of the quality of the job a defender do. But if it was, why did Rio Ferdinand have, relatively, few defensive actions? And why are there so many poor defenders with relatively high numbers?
And why do Guardiola prefer central defenders with few defensive actions (Laporte, Kompany and Stones over someone like Otamendi)? Because is it is not stats that matter much or of much interest.
The best central defendes today make fewer clearences than in the past because they pass the ball with intent instead. That is a good thing. Progress. That is why their pass completion is higher today. But when you read your stat you misinterpet the numbers and think it makes him poor.
Positive: miles better than I ever expected he could be and nice to see two Utd CBs comfortable on the ball
Negative: always seems to have one monumental near f**k up in him per game
Lets hope he can play 50+ games this year and start gaining that bit of extra confidence, which I feel is all thats needed
Negative: always seems to have one monumental near f**k up in him per game
Lets hope he can play 50+ games this year and start gaining that bit of extra confidence, which I feel is all thats needed
And your point is? Aha, perhaps you mean we should leave all references to some of the best players in history? So..no more Best, Charlton, Pele, etc...how far back are we allowed to go in your opinion?
The point I was making about Maldini was that already then (approximately 30 years ago) he had identified that reading of the game was more important than making tackles.
My point was that Maldini played as a fullback for most of his career and peak years. So not sure why you're bringing up a fullback to make a point on a CB.
I have ignored Gomez as he didn't play all games as CB,
Going by per 90 mins, VVD had 12.7 defensive actions, Matip had 12.8, Lovren had 12.5.
Doubt anyone rates them as good as VVD. Only stat VVD tops the list is clearances
Matip wins more tackles.
Matips makes more interceptions
VVD makes more clearances
Lovren blocks more shots
Lovren wins more aerial duels.
Even in 2017-18, playing for Liverpool Lovren had better stats in tackles, interceptions, clearances, blocks. Only thing VVD topped is aerial duels.
You will have CBs playing different roles. I agree Lindelof looks passive but saying he has only xyz defensive actions is not the right way.
Yeah it's already happened, some will tell you Tuanzebe should be starting ahead of him
Until he sorts this out, I think all these arguments are pointless. It's one of the most important skills for a CB and he's one of the worst I've seen at it.
He played all along the back line and has been voted the best defender in the World. Lindelof has played a lot of his career at right back for Sweden. The point is about defending, not a defined position.
He should.Yeah it's already happened, some will tell you Tuanzebe should be starting ahead of him
No he didn't. He moved to CB in the late 90s and ended up playing more games there than he ever did at LB, and most will say it was as a CB that he went from world class to being in the conversation for the best of all time. He was named Captain and won everything there was to win as a centre back.
Lindelof won't come close to Maldini that much I'm sure of. We're not discussing Lindelof as a fullback but rather as a CB instead. And bringing up a LB from the past who played the majority of his career at fullback doesn't help Lindelof in that regard.
Although he played as a left back for most of his career, Maldini was naturally right footed, and began playing for Milan as a right back.
Maldini was renowned for his technical ability, athleticism, sliding tackles, stamina, composure and fast energetic forward runs as a left-back or wing-back.[96][97][98][99][100] He was also an excellent crosser of the ball, and was an effective attacking threat, scoring and assisting several goals throughout his career.[101][102] In the final few years of his career, as he lost speed, he was moved to a centre-back position, where he excelled in relying on his experience, tactical ability, positioning and timing to win the ball.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paolo_Maldini
There always tends to be one CB more ‘dominant’ than the other. You don’t want 2 CB always going for the same ball do you? You want your best header going for the aerials and the other guy covering.
Victor is fine. Tbh the less our defenders have to do the happier I am. If we are not letting in many goals our defense is doing it’s job, it’s up the other end in more worried.
Victor is fine. Tbh the less our defenders have to do the happier I am. If we are not letting in many goals our defense is doing it’s job, it’s up the other end in more worried.
No, he hasn't.
Based on what?
Their stats are very similar and one did it in the PL and one in the championship. Lindelof beats Tuanzebe in passing and Tuanzebe beats him in aerial duels won. But it might be that you face more aerial duels in the Championship. Lindelof also beats him for pace according to the chart that Lukaku posted.
It's not even close for pace and I have a lad I know too well who trains with them both daily who has confirmed that.
I have actually watched them both play a lot. Tuanzebe definitely beats him for pace, I don't even think no one would argue with that. I think it's pretty close with aerial duels. Imo Tuanzebes passing is better and he's also better at bringing the ball forward. However, that's not why I want to play Tuanzebe. I want to play Tuanzebe because he's quicker and stronger and complement Maguire in a better way. He's better at the high pressing game where he's both stronger and faster and a better tackler, which is important when he's aggressive high up the pitch. I think Linedelos has a sealing in his potential and I really don't see him reaching any high level which I think Tuanzebe can. Tuanzebe can solve 1 vs 1 problems better than Lindelof and that is important if Ole wants his high pressing game. I think Lindelof is very much an okayish player but I just see Tuanzebe as the superior talent.
Yes, he has. At under 21 he took over from Emil Krafth when he got injured and from then on was first choice at right back for all of their games in the European Championships.
That's wrong. His first full season as centre back was 98-99. He played 289 games there, as opposed to 232 as a left back. He also played a grand total of two top flight games at right back, he was moved to left back pretty much immediately.
The point was he converted to playing CB later in his career when he had lost speed. He played the majority of his peak years at left back until he lost his pace was the point I made and I'm correct.
He’s great and will only get better.
Four matches in a U21-Euro tournament wouldn't I call a lot. Can't think of even one game he played there for Sweden senior team. Maybe once in like 40 games. My point is that he hasn't played a lot of right back, and especially not at senior level.
No surprises who the top poster in here is; it's the Chief of the Smalling police 
Get over it, Ole doesn't fancy Smalling, time to move on.....
Get over it, Ole doesn't fancy Smalling, time to move on.....
Of course Tuanzebe is quicker, at least for acceleration. Sorry for the trolling on that part, was more poking fun at people using stats without context. Lindelof however is a lot faster than people give him credit for. I've also watched them both quite a bit. The rest of your post just sounds like you're basing it on your subjective opinion? The stats show that Lindelof is the better passer and Tuanzebe has more bad touches per game.
Anyway, I don't really care enough to argue. If Tuanzebe is better/has higher potential he will displace Lindelof eventually and then that's great for us.
Don't you think Lindelof's passing stats are better because he was passing the ball to Manchester United players and Axel was passing to Championship players?
Nah, he's a good prospect but not ready. It's possible he could exceed Lindelof in the future but Victor is further ahead in his development and deserving of his first team spot. Tuanzebe will get his chance to but as it stands he has proven nothing at this level.
Depends if you rate Lukaku et al as Manchester United players, but it is a fair point. Depends what criteria they use for a successful pass I guess. It's not dependent on who your teammate is if the criteria is to just reach your man and it doesn't matter if they manage to get it under control.
Lindelof is also being marked by Premier League players instead of by Championship players. It's a lot harder to complete passes in the PL, that's why it's the top division. You have less time and so does the player you pass to.
I'm not sure why people are arguing that Lindelof isn't good enough. He's one of the first names on the team sheet in what now looks to be a fairly solid defence. The defense we have currently is good enough to win things with, it's our midfield that needs upgrading.
The questions was: are there any top centre backs who have less “defensive actions” than Lindelof. Defensive actions defined as the sum of tackles, interceptions, clearances, blocks, and aerials. Aerials are by the way defined as offensive action in WhoScored database, but I included them anyways. I cannot measure relative speed nor strength compared to Lindelof.
I went through some centre backs in the top clubs and also picked some of the centrebacks who are generally considered to be among the best in the world. This is not a random or representative sample, I picked the ones I thought of and took the stats from last year’s domestic league. All CBs ranked top 10 in the world by Fourfourtwo are there. All of them played more than 10 league games last year. Many of them play in dominant teams, but of course the best ones do.
The answer is yes, there are many top class CB who have "less defensive actions" than Lindelöf. Some examples from last season: Umtiti, Lenglet, Stones, Boateng, Kimpembe, Bonucci, Nacho, Savic, Thiago Silva, Ramos, Chiellini and Rugani.
Below is my list with player and "total defensive actions". I can post the whole detailed list if someone teach me how to include a picture.
VvD 12,6
Godin 11,1
de Ligt 10,8
Pique 10,6
Koulibaly 9,8
Hummels 9,7
Varane 9,6
Laporte 9,4
Vertonghen 9,4
Alderweireld 8,9
Lindelof 8,7
Rugani 8,6
Chiellini 8,6
Ramos 8,5
Thiago Silva 8,5
Savic 8
Nacho 8
Bonucci 7,1
Kimpembe 6,9
Boateng 6,7
Stones 6,7
Lenglet 6,6
Umtiti 5,3
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As the team gets better with upgrades, the weak links become more obvious. People are starting to realise it with Shaw. Lindelof is just the current (highly debatable) best of an average bunch to partner Maguire.
Then why has Smalling got a high pass percentage if he was being marked?
Good post. This defensive actions stat is so subjective it's ridiculous, totally dependent on the system and a players role. These stats dont work in a vacuum, all we can really see is that Lindelof is forming a good partnership with Maguire and we have only conceded via a total wonder goal.
Hopefully this should end the "defensive actions" debate.
Good post. Its the McNamara-fallacy, measuring anything possible to measure and ignoring the rest.
What central defenders had the most defensive actions in the PL last season? Probably players from Cardiff and Huddersfield. Maybe Burnley. Does that make them great central defenders? No. Does having few defensive actions make you a poor central defender? Not at all.
Lindelof has flaws, but he is a huge upgrade on Smalling/Jones/Bailly/Rojo.
That's correct, it's my own opinion based on what I've seen.
I thought this was about Lindelof and Tuanzebe?
It's easy to have a high pass completion if they're all back to De Gea.
It was until you said that Lindelof is marked by prem players whilst making his passes (which are mostly safe side ways passes) and Tuanzebe is marked by championship players. Smalling is derided on here due to his inability to pass the ball but has a high pass%. So either they aren't marked by opposing players contrary to what you said or Smalling is brilliant on the ball with a high pass% whilst being marked by prem markers.
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