Bury - EFL to discuss re-entry to L2 | and Bolton - sold

Sandikan

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You can't blame them. They have families and bills to pay like most people.
The job there is just totally impossible this season - next to no senior players, massive points deduction, losing most weeks, it's a complete farce.
Not being paid on top just makes it a totally untenable position.
 

Sandikan

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It's terrible seeing the mess one individual can leave a lower league team in.

My boys Wycombe could very easily have been in a similar fix a few years ago.
In case anyone doesn't know the details, a guy took us over, made the right noises early doors, and looked to have the right intentions, but seemed to have an unhealthy obsession with stretching our relationship with Wasps, who were our tenants at the time.

His master plan was to try and lean on the council to move both clubs to a white elephant of a 20,000 stadium, when we probably averaged 5,000 at time max, where we'd suddenly be the tenants, actually pay rent to Wasps and not have any stake in any of the property around the site. The massive suspicion being the property angle was the chief reason for the move.

One summer, after promotion, he dropped an ultimatum, give him 100% of the club, or he would ruck off out of dodge, and leave us in administration! We bowed, but by this time were dipping in the 5th and 6th rate player basket - leading to an instant relegation back to the bottom tier.

Time rolled on, the ground move was rejected, he lost interest, Wasps buggered off (to basically torment Coventry), and we've spent years and years paying him back off.

After a few years of being "fan owned", having a very low budget versus league 2, let alone league 1 standards, with Ainsworth doing an incredible job, we've realised we're totally unsustainable.

Cue new owners, who have started increasing our budget - BEFORE we've even voted them in yet!!


So slightly uncertain
1) that we vote them in, as if not, we owe them a fair wad
2) they turn out to be as good as they seem at the current time!!
 

DomesticTadpole

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The job there is just totally impossible this season - next to no senior players, massive points deduction, losing most weeks, it's a complete farce.
Not being paid on top just makes it a totally untenable position.
Terrible that it has got to this stage.
 

Sandikan

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Terrible that it has got to this stage.
Yep - there was excitement when Wycombe drew famous Bolton, recently in the Premier league for the 1st day of the season.

But I don't think I've ever gone to a game more certain of a victory.
The 2-0 that day doesn't come close to telling the story, as we missed about 10 chances in the last 10mins.
 

Rolandofgilead

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It's terrible seeing the mess one individual can leave a lower league team in.

My boys Wycombe could very easily have been in a similar fix a few years ago.
In case anyone doesn't know the details, a guy took us over, made the right noises early doors, and looked to have the right intentions, but seemed to have an unhealthy obsession with stretching our relationship with Wasps, who were our tenants at the time.

His master plan was to try and lean on the council to move both clubs to a white elephant of a 20,000 stadium, when we probably averaged 5,000 at time max, where we'd suddenly be the tenants, actually pay rent to Wasps and not have any stake in any of the property around the site. The massive suspicion being the property angle was the chief reason for the move.

One summer, after promotion, he dropped an ultimatum, give him 100% of the club, or he would ruck off out of dodge, and leave us in administration! We bowed, but by this time were dipping in the 5th and 6th rate player basket - leading to an instant relegation back to the bottom tier.

Time rolled on, the ground move was rejected, he lost interest, Wasps buggered off (to basically torment Coventry), and we've spent years and years paying him back off.

After a few years of being "fan owned", having a very low budget versus league 2, let alone league 1 standards, with Ainsworth doing an incredible job, we've realised we're totally unsustainable.

Cue new owners, who have started increasing our budget - BEFORE we've even voted them in yet!!


So slightly uncertain
1) that we vote them in, as if not, we owe them a fair wad
2) they turn out to be as good as they seem at the current time!!
Been through it myself.

My team Weymouth we’re bought by s guy called Martin Harrison who was a local hotelier. He had the best of intentions in truth and got us in to the conference and we looked more than capable of promotion to the football league, unfortunately his ambition didn’t match the investment he could afford. Ironically it was after a cup replay with Bury that we’d lost 4-3 that we came home to discover the whole team was on the transfer list and we were desperate to find investment.

Then we got bought by a guy called Malcolm Curtis who is a property developer and to ‘sustain the club’ he sold the land surrounding our ground to a company, set up by him, in his name. He sold it for £500k and it was worth 3 times that easily. He then took that money out of the club and back to back relagations followed. Then he decided he’d done enough damage and put us Into administration only this time he was down as a major creditor, so he knew that if we couldn’t find the money to pay the debt he would make a lot of money as he owned the surrounding land and knew he could buy the rest of the ground at a knock down price.

Luckily we were saved by a combination of fan collections and a bloke called George Rolls. Now, Rolls himself is known as a bit of a shit. He isn’t particularly popular at Cambridge United where he was previously involved for example, but I don’t know the ins and outs of his activities, what I do know is that he saved and then sold the club to the fans.

We are fan owned now and we have a brilliant relationship with Bournemouth and take a few players on loan from them. We won the Southern premier league last season and currently sit 2nd in the conference south. We are debt free and won’t compromise on that.

We just bought that land back for £1 somehow too.
 

Sandikan

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Been through it myself.

My team Weymouth we’re bought by s guy called Martin Harrison who was a local hotelier. He had the best of intentions in truth and got us in to the conference and we looked more than capable of promotion to the football league, unfortunately his ambition didn’t match the investment he could afford. Ironically it was after a cup replay with Bury that we’d lost 4-3 that we came home to discover the whole team was on the transfer list and we were desperate to find investment.

Then we got bought by a guy called Malcolm Curtis who is a property developer and to ‘sustain the club’ he sold the land surrounding our ground to a company, set up by him, in his name. He sold it for £500k and it was worth 3 times that easily. He then took that money out of the club and back to back relagations followed. Then he decided he’d done enough damage and put us Into administration only this time he was down as a major creditor, so he knew that if we couldn’t find the money to pay the debt he would make a lot of money as he owned the surrounding land and knew he could buy the rest of the ground at a knock down price.

Luckily we were saved by a combination of fan collections and a bloke called George Rolls. Now, Rolls himself is known as a bit of a shit. He isn’t particularly popular at Cambridge United where he was previously involved for example, but I don’t know the ins and outs of his activities, what I do know is that he saved and then sold the club to the fans.

We are fan owned now and we have a brilliant relationship with Bournemouth and take a few players on loan from them. We won the Southern premier league last season and currently sit 2nd in the conference south. We are debt free and won’t compromise on that.

We just bought that land back for £1 somehow too.
Once a club is in the hands of an individual, even if they're a top guy, it seems a total lottery what the next owner will be like.

The conference and lower, are littered with fine tradition ex football league clubs utterly rucked by their owner.

Just look at Darlington! Where even are they now? Remember when they thought they were bringing Asprilla in! And had a 25,000 seater stadium!
 

Rolandofgilead

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Once a club is in the hands of an individual, even if they're a top guy, it seems a total lottery what the next owner will be like.

The conference and lower, are littered with fine tradition ex football league clubs utterly rucked by their owner.

Just look at Darlington! Where even are they now? Remember when they thought they were bringing Asprilla in! And had a 25,000 seater stadium!
They play in the northern equivalent of our league funnily enough, managed by Alun Armstrong. But they actually folded and reformed.
 

MsNuno

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Looks all over for bury and what a nob the owner seems to be. Hope for the fans sake theres a last minute solution
 

Sandikan

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Remember when Notts County became big shots and hired SGE?
When Notts County rolled up at Wycombe a few years ago, they had a ridiculous cast of big names.

I think I remember Roy Carroll, Alan Smith, Jon Stead, Ameobi and a couple of others, all in one lineup!
Must have had an insane wage bill, and totally not reflected in their position.
 

Rolandofgilead

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Memory is fuzzy but wasn’t the owners address located at a small
shoe shop in Pakistan?
I want to read up on this tonight, didn’t SGE get given a weird role that wasn’t quite ‘manager’ I’ll look for an article when I get to work
 

golden_blunder

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When Notts County rolled up at Wycombe a few years ago, they had a ridiculous cast of big names.

I think I remember Roy Carroll, Alan Smith, Jon Stead, Ameobi and a couple of others, all in one lineup!
Must have had an insane wage bill, and totally not reflected in their position.
Didn’t Sol Campbell go there?
 

FootballHQ

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I think you're probably right, that's a path I can see both clubs following. It's a massive shame - for Bolton, as I remember Big Sam's Kevin Davies-led team beating Atleti in the EL only about 12 or so years ago (2007 I think?) and now they've plummeted so far, it's sad to see. Bury, I have some sympathy for but I also think if you knowingly take the risk of spending far beyond your means (they're a tiny club in reality) then you run the risk of leaving yourself in this type of situation. Still, to see them close to going out of business etc. isn't nice and I wouldn't wish that on any fan.

As a Bristol Rovers fan, I worry myself. Decreasing attendances (largely because we're managed by a glorified PE teacher who plays three DMs at home) and an ever-growing debt, coupled with a known tendency to overpay journeyman means we could be one of the next on the chopping block.
Well you get nearly triple the gate of Bury (regular 7-8k isn't it). Amazed no progress has been made on the stadium so you're still stuck playing at Memorial ground which must be one of worst grounds in the whole football league.

Seen progress likes of Brighton and Swansea made when they moved to new grounds. I've always thought of Bristol Rovers as a bit of an underachieving club, were in non league not so long ago before Darrell Clarke saved you and your neighbours are now established as top half championship club so it should be possible if you could sort yourselves out off the pitch.
 

AlwaysRed66

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Looks all over for bury and what a nob the owner seems to be. Hope for the fans sake theres a last minute solution
He is not a nob. He is nasty asset stripping scum bag. I hope the council ensure whatever happens he cannot sell the ground.
 

CornerFlag

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Really sad.... then we have players at the top of the tree going for over £100M...madness and sadness...hope Bury and Bolton survive somehow
Yeah the money at the top of the game has kind of always just saddened me, I think it's pretty much been the cause of my slow but steady loss of love for the game, all the shenanigans to skirt FFP, the hedge fund operators who see the fan as the customer and not the custodian. I'm sure it'll be criticised by some on here but I've only been Anfield twice, once for a Youth Cup game and once for an FA Cup game where I got a ticket at half face value. At £40+ it's just not value for money for me, I'd rather head to your Prenton Parks or even lower down these days if I'm gonna go to a game, or spend the money on my little family. Can't justify what is essentially paying for rich lads running about getting richer at the kick of a ball, with some laughing wealthy guy getting zeroes added to his secret slush fund.

The fans are the big losers, Bolton and Bury are big big names for the game to lose, massive history.
 

Wumminator

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Yeah the money at the top of the game has kind of always just saddened me, I think it's pretty much been the cause of my slow but steady loss of love for the game, all the shenanigans to skirt FFP, the hedge fund operators who see the fan as the customer and not the custodian. I'm sure it'll be criticised by some on here but I've only been Anfield twice, once for a Youth Cup game and once for an FA Cup game where I got a ticket at half face value. At £40+ it's just not value for money for me, I'd rather head to your Prenton Parks or even lower down these days if I'm gonna go to a game, or spend the money on my little family. Can't justify what is essentially paying for rich lads running about getting richer at the kick of a ball, with some laughing wealthy guy getting zeroes added to his secret slush fund.

The fans are the big losers, Bolton and Bury are big big names for the game to lose, massive history.

I spend an incredible amount going to United every season. Got ten home tickets this year so far, all around 45-52 quid. I love it but as an “experience” its a lot worse than the times United aren’t playing and Oldham/Vale/Rochdale are at home.
 

jojojo

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Time rolled on, the ground move was rejected, he lost interest, Wasps buggered off (to basically torment Coventry), and we've spent years and years paying him back off.

After a few years of being "fan owned", having a very low budget versus league 2, let alone league 1 standards, with Ainsworth doing an incredible job, we've realised we're totally unsustainable.

Cue new owners, who have started increasing our budget - BEFORE we've even voted them in yet!!


So slightly uncertain
1) that we vote them in, as if not, we owe them a fair wad
2) they turn out to be as good as they seem at the current time!!
That's the dilemma for most clubs really. Fan owned sounds great until a club you've considered as equals or below you gets a bit of cash from a new owner and starts to jump ahead.

When you're running to stand still, relying on a Cup run to repair the pitch or hoping to sell on a teenager to pay the tax bill it's hard to say no. I'm sure some Bury fans enjoyed the spending years, and when they compared their overspend (a couple of million a year) to PL wages it probably didn't sound like madness.

It's why regulation is important. The income and margins are small in the lower leagues and the temptation to run up debts chasing promotion or dodging relegation is high. But unless you really do have an actual multimillionaire (not someone with a set of unstable businesses) treating you as a charitable retirement project it's a very dangerous game.
 

jojojo

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Incidentally, just for posters who aren't familiar with the numbers. The PL hasn't killed lower League attendances - L2 gets better numbers now than Division 4 (as we used to call it!) did in the 70s/80s.
http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/nav/attnengleague.htm

It's the financial situation: the temptation to overspend, the lack of transparency, and in some cases the land valuations that are making historic clubs so fragile.

I was born a United fan in a United family so I didn't have a choice - but the same is true for the people who are fans of Bury or Bolton or whoever. They had no more control over the actions of the owners than we have over the Glazers.

Even Blackpool, where the fans organised a massive boycott, only changed hands because a judge ruled that Oyston needed to pay off his ex-business partner. Nothing to do with how the club's assets, the staff, or the fans had been treated. And nothing to do with the EFL and its "fit and proper" tests or its annual financial monitoring.
 

ChrisNelson

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This whole situation is so sad. To think of all those loyal Bury fans who have done nothing wrong yet face seeing their club just disappear.

To think of the disparity between the lower leagues and the salaries/ prize money being enjoyed in the Premier League. Not that's it the fault of the £500K a week earners but it must sit uneasily with a lot of football fans.

I have followed my local non-league team home and away for many years other than a spell of regular OT visits in the early to mid 2000s. And I don't know what I would do if they weren't around tomorrow.

The radio interview on Talksport the other day was fascinating and sad in equal measure, I heard it live and was gobsmacked by the unfounded confidence of Steve Dale. But then last night on the same station they had a Bury fan on who was convinced he would save the club tomorrow, so the question has to be asked why would you leave it so late? If there was a buyer out there surely if you could avoid cancelling your first six fixtures then you would?

Tomorrow is a really important day for football because a club like Bury should be riding the crest of a wave at the moment as a promoted club from last season, however the reality is scary - according the BBC article only 2 players from the promotion squad remain and 8 players are listed on the website in the first team.

If they go to the wall, sadly I don't think they will be the last.
 

jojojo

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Some interesting background reading on Bury's debt and what was declared in the CVA. What isn't in the CVA is the football debt (anything owned to players or other clubs) and other secured creditors. In particular the full picture behind the loan that's secured against the stadium isn't clear.
http://priceoffootball.com/bury-minutes-to-midnight/

On the face of it the stadium is the club's only asset and if the club go out of business as a result of losing their EFL place then the only people who stand to get any money are the loan company. However as no one really knows who they are or what connection they may have to Dale or the previous owners, it's anybody's guess whether Dale really is playing chicken by taking it right to the wire and gambling on getting a better bid, or if he already has another way of making money.

Just as a sidenote: I have no idea if the following tweet is true - I haven't checked but it did make me laugh, maybe someone else will check. :smirk:
 

neilv93

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Well you get nearly triple the gate of Bury (regular 7-8k isn't it). Amazed no progress has been made on the stadium so you're still stuck playing at Memorial ground which must be one of worst grounds in the whole football league.

Seen progress likes of Brighton and Swansea made when they moved to new grounds. I've always thought of Bristol Rovers as a bit of an underachieving club, were in non league not so long ago before Darrell Clarke saved you and your neighbours are now established as top half championship club so it should be possible if you could sort yourselves out off the pitch.
Yeah in the past few years we've seen crowds of 10k flock in back in the heyday of DC's success. Agree, our "stadium" is god-awful and hopefully some progress on that front could see us kick on and progress like a Swansea and Brighton have. We're currently in the shadows of the red half and that'll continue long-term because they're a well-run club and we aren't.

That's why I worry about us becoming another Bury in the future. We spend well beyond our means and have absolutely nothing to show for it - not even so much as a L1 playoff finish. Bristol is a huge and wonderful city, I hope one day we can kick on like the red half have because we could be another Sheffield or Birmingham in that sense.
 
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jojojo

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So, if Dale is genuinely just playing chicken it's looking like we may be reaching the bit where he has to grab the money and run or risk losing his best chance of a good profit.
As Dale was the one who told Sky and BBC Radio that he has 4 offers, one credible - the veracity of the 4 bidders idea is anyone's guess.

However the local MP, who's been putting in an effort on this says:
So maybe at least one bid is real.
 

Robertd0803

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The job there is just totally impossible this season - next to no senior players, massive points deduction, losing most weeks, it's a complete farce.
Not being paid on top just makes it a totally untenable position.
The amazing thing is that they lasted this long.

Awful situation for both Bolton and Bury.
 

Rood

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If bury collapses Could this be the start of the collapse of the bubble?
Nah - there has been other clubs gone the same way.

I remember Chester City going out of business in relatively recent times. They came back again at the bottom of the pyramid, I assume it would be the same for Bury.
 

Wedge

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Nah - there has been other clubs gone the same way.

I remember Chester City going out of business in relatively recent times. They came back again at the bottom of the pyramid, I assume it would be the same for Bury.
Chester is one of my local teams, I'm fairly certain the guy who owned Chester was extremely dodgy.
 

jojojo

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So, today is either decision day - or not. Steve Dale may now be talking with potential buyers. One of them may bid enough to get him to sell. The EFL may offer the buyer "24/48 hours" to get it over the line. The local MP has asked that the 24/48 hours starts next Tuesday (rather than over a Bank Holiday weekend).

Meanwhile David Conn continues to try and find out just how much Steve Dale has invested in the club.
 

MsNuno

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Not many years ago we were in the same situation hours from going out of business luckily Jack Hayward and the council stepped in to stop that hope for Bury fans that they have a similar outcome. The fans don't deserve this
 

el diablorojo

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There are not many teams below the Prem that are going to be completely immune to this happening. It's not so long ago fans at Brentford were collecting change in buckets at games to keep the club afloat after being royally shafted by a former owner. We got lucky and were taken over by a fan who not only loves the club but has also been able to leverage his stats businesses to give us an advantage, we are now a stable Championship team moving into a new stadium. I remember many games vs Bury and hope they find some resolution to this :(
 

Catt

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Not many years ago we were in the same situation hours from going out of business luckily Jack Hayward and the council stepped in to stop that hope for Bury fans that they have a similar outcome. The fans don't deserve this
Interesting. When was this?
 

johanovic

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Is it not time for PL clubs being allowed to work more closely with lower league clubs and having them as sort of B teams to create playing time for promising youngsters in a proper league instead of this under 23 football? Clubs like Bolton and Bury would benefit from this and that would create more young players ready for the bigger clubs or having a good career in the lower leagues.