The Creative Fulcrum of our Team

amolbhatia50k

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Most good teams put onus on certain individuals with obvious talents to dictate play and ensure chances are created regularly for the forwards. City with KDB and the Silvas. Madrid with Modric, Kroos, Isco. Barcelona have had plenty. And so on. These combinations tend to be in the middle of the park and the common them is to have players who are genuinely high quality passers. That's how much you usually create chances for your attackers. Liverpool are an exemption in a way.


When I look at Manchester United, it seems we don't seem to be very interested in playmakers or creative footballers. We have one Paul Pogba who we apparently are in confusion about regarding his role/position. Him aside whenever we prove for openings, I see us either relying on

A) Strikers like Martial or Rashford to create openings. I mean I understand that the modern striker does a bit of everything but you can't expect them chaps to run the engine. There should be a machinery creating stuff for them.

B) or decent /good footballers like Lingard, James and Mctominay, who simply do not excel as passers.

So, yeah, why is passing, creating, playmaking so neglected at Manchester United? Our last midfield signing was Fred and he isn't really of that mould either so it appears not be a big priority.
 

Greck

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Lingard as our 10 is symptomatic of our general approach to this issue
 

kouroux

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Most good teams put onus on certain individuals with obvious talents to dictate play and ensure chances are created regularly for the forwards. City with KDB and the Silvas. Madrid with Modric, Kroos, Isco. Barcelona have had plenty. And so on. These combinations tend to be in the middle of the park and the common them is to have players who are genuinely high quality passers. That's how much you usually create chances for your attackers. Liverpool are an exemption in a way.


When I look at Manchester United, it seems we don't seem to be very interested in playmakers or creative footballers. We have one Paul Pogba who we apparently are in confusion about regarding his role/position. Him aside whenever we prove for openings, I see us either relying on

A) Strikers like Martial or Rashford to create openings. I mean I understand that the modern striker does a bit of everything but you can't expect them chaps to run the engine. There should be a machinery creating stuff for them.

B) or decent /good footballers like Lingard, James and Mctominay, who simply do not excel as passers.

So, yeah, why is passing, creating, playmaking so neglected at Manchester United? Our last midfield signing was Fred and he isn't really of that mould either so it appears not be a big priority.
I feel like the club focuses on qualities that should be given in any footballer instead of going pure quality on the ball. All the talk about pressing makes my head nauseous. Finding hardworking footballers isn't difficult at all but ones who are good on the ball, under pressure and in tight spaces, these players should be our targets
 

amolbhatia50k

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I feel like the club focuses on qualities that should be given in any footballer instead of going pure quality on the ball. All the talk about pressing makes my head nauseous. Finding hardworking footballers isn't difficult at all but ones who are good on the ball, under pressure and in tight spaces, these players should be our targets
Doesnt that result in a generic approach with the right fit not being found? For example Di Maria didn't make sense for a Van Gaal team. You don't sign Fred when you need a midfield playmaker.
 

Paxi

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No one: The creative fulcrum of our team.

Wait, I’m doing the meme wrong aren’t I?
 

Bojan11

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Liverpool fullbacks are more creative than our so called creative attackers and midfielders.

Rashford and Lingard don’t have the brain to create.
 

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Doesnt that result in a generic approach with the right fit not being found? For example Di Maria didn't make sense for a Van Gaal team. You don't sign Fred when you need a midfield playmaker.
Exactly. Signing James, who is clearly a LW when we need a RW is another sign that we are clueless.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Exactly. Signing James, who is clearly a LW when we need a RW is another sign that we are clueless.
Bingo. He may be a good signing. But I don't think he's a better left winger than Martial for example. Also, he seems a counter attacking player whereas we struggle against teams that sit back.

Again, nothing against this signing. But I simply don't understand why we refuse to sign players who are gifted passers. Mctominay is somehow first choice. Doesn't that say it all when it comes to how much it matters?
 

amolbhatia50k

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I know I'm harping about 'passers' here but the rare few times we made the quick forward pass today, it lead to a chance - 1) Greenwood to Martial for the penalty 2) Pogba to Martial/Rashford for James' goal. To do it more often you should ideally players who can regularly pick out those balls unless your cohesion and system is of an extremely high level.
 

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Creativity along with passing and movement seems to have been an after thought at this club for years.

Our starting midfield includes McTominay and Lingard it’s just baffling it’s been allowed to happen.
 

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Exactly. Signing James, who is clearly a LW when we need a RW is another sign that we are clueless.
Dont think signing James is the issue, He is adding something to the squad and at worse could be a decent squad option. Problem is not signing any Right sided starting attacker, Holding midfielder and another creative mid be it and 8 or 10. This has put all the creative and passing workload on single guy who has half foot set on being out of here.
 

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It depends on the manager and his system, are Fabinho, Henderson, Wijnaldum creative playmakers by any stretch of imagination? The system which Klopp has implemented at Liverpool doesn't need them to be creative as long as they do the dirty work through the middle because it'll allow creativity to come through wide areas.

My biggest problem is I don't see a proper system in place at United, it was same under Jose. We would sit deep and soak pressure but when it came to attack there was no chemistry between the players, they never look in sync while attacking.
 

kouroux

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Dont think signing James is the issue, He is adding something to the squad and at worse could be a decent squad option. Problem is not signing any Right sided starting attacker, Holding midfielder and another creative mid be it and 8 or 10. This has put all the creative and passing workload on single guy who has half foot set on being out of here.
It is not an issue in itself. It is an example that we sign players without knowing how to get the best out of them.
 
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cyberman

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We're creating more than enough. Our problem is our goals don't count as much as other top sides because we are guaranteed to concede a goal so we are being asked for 90 straight minutes to produce, produce, produce.
Another day we win this 4-1. This isn't really the game to question everything about us.
 

izec

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We want to be hard to beat and run. Creative players arent usually that. Some are, but we seem to target different players.

We have Gomes and he doesnt get a look in. He is quite obviously one of the best in the squad technically and on the ball, passing as well. But we keep the lesser player in the team.

Why? I think we have no clue as a club, and we also hire the wrong managers, who either have no clue or dont like these type of players. Ole and Jose prefer counterattacking. We should have kicked on from van Gaal but went sideways with a complete different style.
 

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Ole is very naive. He relies on personal performances rather than a cohesive plan for our creativity, and it's starting to show. We're great on the break but can't break teams down, and he's the one who needs to address it. Still not fully convinced he's good enough tactically but I'm hoping he's smart enough to admit when he's wrong
 

JPRouve

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I feel like the club focuses on qualities that should be given in any footballer instead of going pure quality on the ball. All the talk about pressing makes my head nauseous. Finding hardworking footballers isn't difficult at all but ones who are good on the ball, under pressure and in tight spaces, these players should be our targets
That's pretty much it and it's the same thing with the obsession around signing a top CB. While it doesn't hurt to have good defenders and industrious players, if you are the 6th team in the league, you need to focus on creativity and technical proficiency. This summer we have done the opposite which shouldn't hurt us long term but we are going to suffer short term because one thing is absolutely true in football, to win you need to be able to score and sometimes actually score.
 
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kouroux

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That's pretty much it and it's the same thing with the obsession around signing a top CB. While it doesn't hurt to have good defenders and industrious players, if you are the 6th team in the league, you need to focus on creativity and technical proficiency. This summer we have done the opposite which shouldn't hurt us long term but we are going to suffer long term because one thing is absolutely true in football, to win you need to be able to score and sometimes actually score.
And for that you need players who are confident on the ball. Rashford/Lingard/McT/James are too limited for me to build any kinda consistent and serious attacking football
 

passing-wind

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No we have uninspiring coaching staff and a inexperienced manager. It's got nothing to do with the players, the city team cannot manage itself, Pep is the drive behind their success. Klopp is the drive behind Liverpool's success. Poch is the same especially considering last season he played with Winks and Sissoko in the midfield.

Fans put too much emphasis on players, today we saw a team which was unable to break down palaces defence, not individuals or those with fancy surnames.

Jose called it into question on the first game of the season and he was spot on. This club will not succeed until we have at the foundation a solid coach / DOF. Because the team is shaped around the foundation of coaching, it determines the players we bring in etc then the DOF echoes this vision.

Reason why Solskjaer only planned to bring in Longstaff and no others in the midfield is because he intends to play counter attacking football, if we were intent on being a force in possession we would have identified player's (one is not enough) that fit the implementation of those ideas.
 

berbatrick

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Pogba is the only consistent quality creative passer on the team, while Martial and Rashford have their occassional moments. The setup with ogba deep and Lingard at 10 really limits Pogba, we need Pereira or Fred to make it a midfield 3 and free Pogba.
 

JPRouve

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Pogba is the only consistent quality creative passer on the team, while Martial and Rashford have their occassional moments. The setup with ogba deep and Lingard at 10 really limits Pogba, we need Pereira or Fred to make it a midfield 3 and free Pogba.
Ole should try all the options at his disposal. Fred, Mata, Greenwood and Gomes should all be tried as #10. We have nothing to lose since we have already seen that Lingard and Pereira weren't good enough.
 

amolbhatia50k

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We're creating more than enough. Our problem is our goals don't count as much as other top sides because we are guaranteed to concede a goal so we are being asked for 90 straight minutes to produce, produce, produce.
Another day we win this 4-1. This isn't really the game to question everything about us.
There's no chance we create enough. I'd love to see the stats for touches by forwards in the box. Bet were extremely low in that regard. We rely on our attackers doing something brilliant rather than creating for them through high quality buildup play.
 

redIndianDevil

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It depends on the manager and his system, are Fabinho, Henderson, Wijnaldum creative playmakers by any stretch of imagination? The system which Klopp has implemented at Liverpool doesn't need them to be creative as long as they do the dirty work through the middle because it'll allow creativity to come through wide areas.

My biggest problem is I don't see a proper system in place at United, it was same under Jose. We would sit deep and soak pressure but when it came to attack there was no chemistry between the players, they never look in sync while attacking.
This. This. This. Every year its the same struggle since LvG left, there is no real system at place at United, there is absolutely zero difference between what Mourinho did and what OGS is doing, it's the same sideways passing, constantly moving the ball to the fullbacks and then crying after a match about one to two missed chances when in reality we only ever create 3-4 chances(not even clear cut chances) a game. Even the posters here constantly keep talking about this player, that player, the players we didn't get to sign but our systemic failure is never talked about. OGS would again be supported because he didn't get to buy a couple of players but like you said Klopp doesn't need the Eriksens, Dybalas, De Bruynes of this world to create chances, he manages to do with Henderson, Wijnaldum and Fabinho.
 

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Pogba needs to play higher up. Our options at 10 are shit anyway, criminal to waste Pogba so deep to accommodate a lingard or a Mata. Get a CM behind and let the guy play high up.
 

berbatrick

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There's no chance we create enough. I'd love to see the stats for touches by forwards in the box. Bet were extremely low in that regard. We rely on our attackers doing something brilliant rather than creating for them through high quality buildup play.
Yes, that's the other part. Our routes to goal are: dribble by Rashford or Martial/through by Pogba/random cross from the right. The only consistnet attack we can uild is from the left involving interplay with Shaw and then a cutback/low cross, which didn't happe once today.
Puts too much pressure on creative passers and dribblers.
 

cyberman

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There's no chance we create enough. I'd love to see the stats for touches by forwards in the box. Bet were extremely low in that regard. We rely on our attackers doing something brilliant rather than creating for them through high quality buildup play.
Were pressing higher though and using our pace in shorter distances to get at back fours. At least so far so its not a case of not having a creative fulcrum, its you not liking the creative game plan that we have.
Its not easy to create chances v Palace when they set up like this away from home after all.
We are being sabotaged by mistakes at the back and its making our general play look worse than it is. Its impossible for us to prod and probe the opposition for 90 minutes because we always feck up at the back. We are forever chasing the winner or trying to drag us back in the game.
 

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When Ole came in after Mourinho, there was all this talk of 'freeing' Pogba from his shackles. Now he's consistently being played as part of a midfield two with hardly any license to go forward. Our best player in terms of goals, assists, successful take ons and most key chances created being played as a deep ball winner looking for a long ball.

So that Lingard can play CAM. I can understand Mourinho didn't want creative playmakers who did not track back, and that LVG wanted players to take far fewer risks in possession, and that Moyes was out of his depth. What is Ole's game plan here?

The last proper 10 we signed was Mata who we played his prime years putting in left-footed crosses from the RW. Our recruitement for creative players has been criminal, and I don't think the managers were innocent.
 

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Except Pogba no one else from our front six can walk into other top sides, that is the main issue.


Rashford / SMT / Lingard / James are squad players at best. So don’t expect much otherwise you will be in for a massive disappointment.

I think easily this is one of the weakest UTD side I can think of.
 

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It depends on the manager and his system, are Fabinho, Henderson, Wijnaldum creative playmakers by any stretch of imagination? The system which Klopp has implemented at Liverpool doesn't need them to be creative as long as they do the dirty work through the middle because it'll allow creativity to come through wide areas.

My biggest problem is I don't see a proper system in place at United, it was same under Jose. We would sit deep and soak pressure but when it came to attack there was no chemistry between the players, they never look in sync while attacking.
No, TAA and Robertson and Firmino are.
 

croadyman

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We are far too reliant on Pogba to provide all the creativity in midfield and it's unfair to expect that every game just because our board won't allow Ole the cash to sign someone in that area, really hope that we are looking to sign someone in January to take the pressure off him but knowing the people upstairs I certainly wouldn't count on it.
 

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We used to have Scholes and Carrick in midfield, now we have Pogba and a supporting cast of plodders. This was always bound to happen after the weaknesses in the squad besides right back and center back went unaddressed. I don’t think any of our starting players could be called creative beyond Pogba and occasionally Martial. It was truly appalling watching us against Palace but not surprising at all. I don’t see things getting better without signing the right players in midfield and attack, which I don’t trust us to do. Then there is the coaching, from which there has been only marginal and debatable improvement in performances from last season. It’s a grim picture right now. Let’s hope this squad can pull 4th place somehow and go from there I guess.
 

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I think the best potential set up we can have this season would be Fred starting next to McTominay with Pogba as the 10. Gives that bit more balance in midfield with ball players and creativity while having Fred who can control with progressive passing. He needs to massively improve, but he has some potential to have an impact.
 

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Our problem is not even pressing. Our problem is that we do not know what to do when we have the ball . That is where most of our problems come from. This is certainly due to the coaching. If the players do not know what to do when we have the ball, then we will lose possession quickly too.

For the life of me I cannot understand who started this rumour of United being a counter attacking team? We were always a team that kept possession and when there is a chance we counter attacked. If other teams defended deeply we out passed them and broke them down.
 

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Pogba needs to be moved further up. Hes involved in most of our good moves and its much harder to do that when hes right in front of our defense. Maybe its time to give Fred a chance or maybe dust off Matic?

--------------DDG----------------
AWB--Lindelof--Maguire--Shaw
---------McTom----Fred---------
Rashford------Pogba-----James
--------------Marital-------------

With Pogba operating in the hole he will be a lot more involved in our build up and that is where we need him
 

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Pogba but We don't have enough good CM to cover him going forward all the time.
 

roonster09

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The creative player we have is playing in deeper midfield, that's the problem. Any player playing as 10, you expect them to contribute a lot in the attack, we have Lingard who doesn't. On the few occasions where we played ball quicker, it reached Lingard and then he opted for safe pass or run with the ball out wide from inside the box.

From the available players, we should push Pogba higher up the pitch and play Fred. Fred moves ball quickly (he loses concentration at times but we have to trust him) and can pass with both feet. We need someone who can break lines with his passing.
 

In Rainbows

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We absolutely have a penchant for industrious players. During Fergie's days, Welbeck was seen as our defensive winger. Now, Lingard is seen as our defensive #10. In 2013, we relied on Carrick (who was pretty amazing that year). Luckily we had RVP who was not only a great goal scorer, but just great technical forward. Rooney, despite his flaws, was still capable of being a match winner and creating for others that season.

Right now, we're seriously having to carry poorly technical players and are extremely reliant on Pogba to create. The problem comes from the fact that if you play him as an 8 (furthest forward in a 3 man midfield), we now lack 2 midfielders who can dissuade the opposition from pressing, who can give the ball to Pogba in dangerous positions, and can distribute the ball to our attackers in great positions.

Pereira has never been a great creative player even at youth level. He was a tidy player, who can spray passes, had steel, can find space for himself to shoot, had great set piece ability, even at times showed magic with flicks, but he wasn't on the same level of vision that Gomes and Pogba had.

It's not hindsight at all. A lot of the players outperformed Pereira last season. Rothwell, Pearson, Wilson, Janko, Charni, etc... Obviously Pereira has more technical ability and a higher potential than the names listed, but playing behind the striker he wasn't creative enough, and didn't cause the defenses all that much trouble. Whenever he had the ball in the final third, he would usually only look to create an opening for himself. The attack as a whole was awful for the reserve team so it might be harsh on him, but it would have been worse if not for the finishing of Wilson and the drive of Rothwell.

This is all based on last season which I watched every one of his matches. 99corrigan also makes numerous videos of his performances even when other players outperformed him. No one is writing him off here. He's still really young and can obviously develop into a fantastic player. But you can't tell me Pogba at the same age wasn't putting in better performances or showing more than him. I can't even think of one performance at the u18 or u21 level (this past season) where Pereira put in a performance as good as Pogba did in the 2nd leg of the FA Youth Cup final.

And again, I was one of the people who also thought Januzaj was ready for the first team. I just wasn't on the forum at the time.

Although I think Pereira will not end up playing behind the striker and instead deeper, the comparison wasn't about who was the better midfielder (midfield 2). The comparison was in terms of consistency. I think Pogba's best bits of play were a level above Pereira's.

If you want to compare him to another attacking midfielder, then you can compare him to Januzaj although that would be unfair on him.
I did go on to praise him for that following season. He was a good classy midfielder. This is coming from someone who did also think more highly of Tom Thorpe than Michael Keane, James Wilson's finishing above Rashford, and still maintain Januzaj was the better performing player just behind Ravel and Gomes, but ahead of players like Pogba (who was inconsistent, but had huge highs).


Ole should have a look at Gomes. As Butt said, Gomes is not only an attacker, but also someone incredibly good at keeping possession and helping out his teammates bring the ball out from the back. My only criticism of Gomes has always been his passiveness at times considering his talent, but even in those matches where I thought that, Gomes would always take responsibility and start dictating play from deeper positions when United were struggling to bring the ball out. Gomes isn't some industrious player when played as an attacker, but if you give him the deeper role from the start, he will do the job required. He is more disciplined than Pogba in this area.

Unlike Januzaj, who I could never picture as a deeper midfielder, Gomes can definitely do that job just like Pogba has that ability. If you want Pogba to be in more dangerous positions, play Gomes next to him so that he can feed Pogba and help bring the ball out. He is much better than Pereira at creating from deep, and he is much better at freeing himself up from opponent pressure because opponents quickly recognize his low center of gravity, technical superiority, and fainting ability.

If there is one concern about Gomes playing deep is that he needs to be more disciplined in regards to going down. He usually wins fouls, but in the rare times where that doesn't happen, the team will nick the ball from him and go on an attacking run. That's an adjustment period he needs to undergo as going to ground as a #10 isn't as detrimental as a pivot midfielder.
 

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We used to have Scholes and Carrick in midfield, now we have Pogba and a supporting cast of plodders. This was always bound to happen after the weaknesses in the squad besides right back and center back went unaddressed. I don’t think any of our starting players could be called creative beyond Pogba and occasionally Martial. It was truly appalling watching us against Palace but not surprising at all. I don’t see things getting better without signing the right players in midfield and attack, which I don’t trust us to do. Then there is the coaching, from which there has been only marginal and debatable improvement in performances from last season. It’s a grim picture right now. Let’s hope this squad can pull 4th place somehow and go from there I guess.
I think it is a BIG ask to get a top 4 finish from this squad of players. You just look at the bench every game and you can see we have no match winners or game changers to come on. We need to try and stay with the pack until Christmas and then bring in a couple of playes in January. Scouts and coaches should have them sorted out and ready to come in.