Are we taking finishing 2nd for granted?

Snow

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Ekeke said:
Not really. They put a lot into their team, we did the same. The difference was the result
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SAF wouldn't have been close. You can't make other teams play better against your opponents, you can only do you. SAF never managed as good of a season in a league as City did and I don't think he managed worse teams in his time.

redshaw said:
I'm not talking it for granted. It was very good to go from 6th to 2nd.

If Jose is saying it was an overachievement then I wonder can he do it again.

Liverpool have strengthened and Chelsea always seem to bounce back well, could be a battle for 3rd and 4th with a range of 3rd to 6th where we end up.

If we forget what City did for a moment, 81 points while good doesn't get you second even in typical seasons of the last ten years. 81 points often nets you 3rd or 4th, with the top two in the higher 80-90 points so it's still quite a way off usual performance. Only on rare occasions can 81 points get you second or win the league. We're 10 points off our last league title in 2013.

In
2008 we'd come 4th with 81 points
2009 we'd come 4th with 81 points
2010 we'd come 3rd with 81 points
2011 3rd on 81 points
2014 4th with 81 points
2016 3rd
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Only a rare occasion 81 is good? In the last 4 seasons it would have gotten you 1st, 2nd twice and 3rd. In the past 10 seasons 81 points would have placed you 1st (twice) or 2nd (3 times). That's half the time and you say it's rare. You're just flat out lying and purposely cherry picking your data (which is wrong btw).
 

Ekeke

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Snow said:
SAF wouldn't have been close. You can't make other teams play better against your opponents, you can only do you. SAF never managed as good of a season in a league as City did and I don't think he managed worse teams in his time.
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Sir Alex didnt spend anywhere near as much.

We spent enough to be close behind, we werent.
 

Snow

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Ekeke said:
Sir Alex didnt spend anywhere near as much.

We spent enough to be close behind, we werent.
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It wasn't possible to spend as much as the market didn't allow it. He did break the transfer record several times. SAF also had a golden generation and got to build on them for his entire career here. Also when United came calling you didn't say no and clubs couldn't afford to say no. Now United are matched in the market by many teams, both in terms of transfer fees and wages.

That's besides the point. His teams were still better.
 

RedDevil@84

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Kapardin said:
2nd was never a failure. The fact that we finished 2nd more due to extraneous factors (Chelsea and Arsenal imploding, Liverpool focusing on CL) as opposed to being the actual 2nd best team in the league is what rankles. If we had finished 2nd playing in a cohesive style, it would have been seen as progress.

Our 2nd place was no different to Arsenal finishing 2nd in Leicester's title winning season.

We aren't the 2nd best team in the league and that's mainly due to the manager not being able to get the best out of the attack.
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I agree that we didn't look like the 2nd best team, but other teams imploding is not really anything new. Many of our title wins were on the back of other competitors falling off. Besides Arsenal didn't implode. They were 5th by week 9 and finished 6th.

We played decently against top teams and I am guessing were 2nd even in the top 6 mini league, much better than the likes of Liverpool. And that helped us.
 

wolvored

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I think if we can finish 2nd this year will be a bigger achievement than last year. We have 2 teams improved greatly and City are a step behind points wise. Along with Spurs and Arsenal we are in a bigger battle imo
 

el3mel

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redshaw said:
I'm not talking it for granted. It was very good to go from 6th to 2nd.

If Jose is saying it was an overachievement then I wonder can he do it again.

Liverpool have strengthened and Chelsea always seem to bounce back well, could be a battle for 3rd and 4th with a range of 3rd to 6th where we end up.

If we forget what City did for a moment, 81 points while good doesn't get you second even in typical seasons of the last ten years. 81 points often nets you 3rd or 4th, with the top two in the higher 80-90 points so it's still quite a way off usual performance. Only on rare occasions can 81 points get you second or win the league. We're 10 points off our last league title in 2013.

In
2008 we'd come 4th with 81 points
2009 we'd come 4th with 81 points
2010 we'd come 3rd with 81 points
2011 3rd on 81 points
2014 4th with 81 points
2016 3rd
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We could have got more if there was any challenge on second spot and we were forced to earn more but it was obvious since we defeated City we secured this spot so the wheels speed dropped down a little bit. By City game we had been on a run of 5 consecutive wins including wins over Chelsea, Liverpool and City. After it we won 3 of our remaining 6, losing 2 and drawing 1 and they were all easy games (Brighton, WBA and WHU) but it was pointless as second spot was already secured and there was no more pressure on players regarding the league.
 

ObieDeMoon

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I will be amazed if we finish 2nd again this year. We did well last year but like someone mentioned other teams around us in the table faded away...

A bit more tenacity a bit more spirit a bit more attacking and fast reaction football on the break we need this year... Start playing like we have everything to lose and even more to gain. Top 4 and play with guts. I'll sleep easy.

Trust your team mates.
 

redshaw

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Snow said:
Only a rare occasion 81 is good? In the last 4 seasons it would have gotten you 1st, 2nd twice and 3rd. In the past 10 seasons 81 points would have placed you 1st (twice) or 2nd (3 times). That's half the time and you say it's rare. You're just flat out lying and purposely cherry picking your data (which is wrong btw).
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2016-17 3rd
2015-16 1st Leicester
2014-15 2nd
2013-14 4th
2012-13 2nd
2011-12 3rd
2010-11 1st United
2009-10 3rd
2008-09 4th
2007-08 4th
2006-07 3rd
2005-06 4th
2004-05 3rd

Yes, its rare for 81 points to be a total to either win or come second. These figures are correct. I never said rare as rocking horse shit. Also point was in the context of recent seasons, 81 points can easily land you 3rd or 4th many times and 81 is quite away from winning. I opened my posts with forget what City did last year (100 points) and looking to the other totals we're still quite a few points off and looking at how many times it lands you 3rd or 4th.

I'm in support of Jose. I wanted him here after Fergie and hope he can turn it around and also hope City don't replicate last season, we still have a chance.
 
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amolbhatia50k

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trafford1980 said:
Second place wasn’t a failure then and it isn’t now.

There’s no way we’re finishing equal or higher this season. I thought Mourinho did extremely well to take this squad to a top two finish (and another cup final) last year.

I’m in no-way knee-jerking to our slow start but I’ll be pleasantly surprised if we beat out two of Chelsea, City, Liverpool or Spurs to a top three finish top this season.

Fourth is about par for this team as is. Fifth would be disappointing although not unexpected. I held this opinion before a ball was kicked and I still hold this view now.
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Says a lot about our manager if our expectations are that low after more than 2 years in charge. Do you expect us to at least play great football ? I mean what's the actual point in him managing this team.
 

Snow

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redshaw said:
2016-17 3rd
2015-16 1st Leicester
2014-15 2nd
2013-14 4th
2012-13 2nd
2011-12 3rd
2010-11 1st United
2009-10 3rd
2008-09 4th
2007-08 4th
2006-07 3rd
2005-06 4th
2004-05 3rd

Yes, its rare for 81 points to be a total to either win or come second. These figures are correct. I never said rare as rocking horse shit. Also point was in the context of recent seasons, 81 points can easily land you 3rd or 4th many times and 81 is quite away from winning. I opened my posts with forget what City did last year (100 points) and looking to the other totals we're still quite a few points off and looking at how many times it lands you 3rd or 4th.

I'm in support of Jose. I wanted him here after Fergie and hope he can turn it around and also hope City don't replicate last season, we still have a chance.
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Half the time isn't rare.
 

Rozay

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It’s all about this new buzzword of ‘entertainment’ really. That we didn’t amass 105 points to win the league is not a matter of shame or ridicule.

We weren’t high enough on the ‘shots on target’ league seems to be the main gripe.
 

andersj

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Sky1981 said:
Are we? With 6 clubs battling out for the league our fans seems to be quick to dismiss finishing 2nd as a failure. It has been a while since we finished 2nd.

Please dont turn this into a net spend, or how we are united and anything other than 1st is a failure, and please dont turn this into a jose bashing thread.
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I think people are less outcome biased and focus more on the general level of our play/performance. In my opinion we had a lot of luck last year. Both in terms of games that went to our advantage and in other stuff (timing when we met teams etc). In addition de Gea was unreal.

Considering the resources and time Mourinho have been given I would expect close to 90 points this year. I can «accept» less if our general performance improve and we get less points due to other relevant circumstanses (unlucky or we are out of the PL-race but still compete in the CL etc).
 

RedDevil@84

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andersj said:
In my opinion we had a lot of luck last year. Both in terms of games that went to our advantage and in other stuff (timing when we met teams etc). In addition de Gea was unreal.
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I don't really think we got more luck than other teams. City got some lucky penalties, some offside goals, some gifts like our players giving them 2 goals in the derby. Same with other teams.
We got unlucky with injury to Pogba when we started so wonderfully. I agree that our overall play has to improve and we would need to play well, especially given the competition around.
 

andersj

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RedDevil@84 said:
I don't really think we got more luck than other teams. City got some lucky penalties, some offside goals, some gifts like our players giving them 2 goals in the derby. Same with other teams.
We got unlucky with injury to Pogba when we started so wonderfully. I agree that our overall play has to improve and we would need to play well, especially given the competition around.
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I agree that City had quite a bit of luck. But they were also so much better than the rest that it did not matter at all. They would have won comfortable anyway.
 

finneh

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We absolutely take it for granted, particularly given the points total we accumulated before the West Brom game when admittedly the league was already sewn up.

After beating City on match day 32 we moved onto 71 points. I'd hazard a guess that in almost any other season that result would have us at the top of the table. From that point I don't accept that we'd have lost to West Brom and Brighton or drawn with West Ham, particularly after the impetus the City result would have given us.

Our season absolutely felt disappointing but that was solely down to the Sevilla result and City having the league sewn up by end of Jan. People also talk about "boring football" but whilst we actually had something to play for we were playing great attacking football. We put 4 past West Ham, Swansea, Everton, CSKA, Palace, Newcastle & Watford; as well as 3 past Arsenal, City, Basel, Palace and Stoke. It was the best Football we've played since 2010 in my opinion.

In most other seasons in my opinion we'd all be talking about how Jose won his best league ever whilst playing the United way.
 
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Bobski

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6 teams battling for the title? Arsenal fans will be thrilled. Spurs aren't a title challenger either, capable of excellent results but I don't see a Dier/Dembele/Ali midfield being good enough to make a jump. Solid but far too reliant on Erirksen for creative impetus, CL and finally winning a cup would be a good season for them.

Chelsea have plenty of talent but if people think that Utd's defense is rubbish then I wonder why Chelsea get a pass. City should win it, doubt it will be the landslide of last season,, they have to make an impact on the CL and focus on that may keep the others close.

Utd getting 81 points last year was indicative of how bad the lower part of the league was, same with City topping 100, there are hopefully a few more capable teams to make it all a little more competitive.
 
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Hazard Warning

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The bookies have United as 5th favourites to finish in the top 4 at the moment, and for good reason. It’s highly competitive and nothing should be taken for granted in this league these days.
 

Blackice64

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This type of Man Utd fan grew up with United playing attractive attacking football so of course if they are sacrificing that they expect to be winning trophies, 2nd is nowhere. Happy with 2nd position is a proper losers "millennial" mentality.

Basically, we want our club back with the traditions and beliefs we grew up on and won't stop until we co.
 

endless_wheelies

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Blackice64 said:
This type of Man Utd fan grew up with United playing attractive attacking football so of course if they are sacrificing that they expect to be winning trophies, 2nd is nowhere. Happy with 2nd position is a proper losers "millennial" mentality.

Basically, we want our club back with the traditions and beliefs we grew up on and won't stop until we co.
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Isn't the accusation normally levelled against millennials that they need immediate gratification and self-aggrandisement?

Seems like you guys have swapped places.
 

Le Red

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What you people don't seem to understand is that it's not so much finishing 2nd as much as it is not looking like anywhere near challenging for the title anytime soon.
 

Tony247

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Chelsea is back and they are very good team. Liv is strengthened. Top four going to be very tough.
 

SpyLuke10

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I think we would've gotten more than 81 points if we were still in the race towards the end, we dropped a lot of points later on in the season because it seemed like the team had nothing to really play for by a certain point.
 

SpyLuke10

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Par for me this season is top 3. There's no reason for us to be finishing anywhere below 3rd imo. I expect and want us to do better in the Champions League than we did last season too.
 

SpyLuke10

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People that say 2nd was poor don't understand the context. We were 5th and 6th in prior seasons. Now United should be challenging every year, but in the context of improving, you can't say significant improvement like that is even remotely a failure.
 

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Gotta take everything into consideration when talking about last season 2nd spot.

  • We never really challenged for the title, no one other than City did.
  • Liverpool turned their focus to CL and played just enough to finish inside the top 4.
  • Chelsea and Arsenal had pretty underwhelming season's, some due to players falling out with their manager (Chelsea) and other due to their uncertainty over the next manager.
  • Spurs I believe got derailed by their CL exit, plus there's their ever present "Wembley curse" of not being able to adjust to new, temporary ground.
2nd a good achievement but not really that amazing considering all the other stuff.

Yeah also we went out of CL to Seville, whilst looking absolutely awful and playing super cowardly defensive style in both games. Also we lost in FA Cup final to a struggling Chelsea side.
 

Bobski

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SpyLuke10 said:
People that say 2nd was poor don't understand the context. We were 5th and 6th in prior seasons. Now United should be challenging every year, but in the context of improving, you can't say significant improvement like that is even remotely a failure.
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Second was not poor. How we played, especially after starting the season brightly was the dispiriting part. Doesn't matter how many times it is said on here but people refuse to accept that most of the disillusion with Mourinho has not been based on results.
 

Sky1981

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Bobski said:
6 teams battling for the title? Arsenal fans will be thrilled. Spurs aren't a title challenger either, capable of excellent results but I don't see a Dier/Dembele/Ali midfield being good enough to make a jump. Solid but far too reliant on Erirksen for creative impetus, CL and finally winning a cup would be a good season for them.

Chelsea have plenty of talent but if people think that Utd's defense is rubbish then I wonder why Chelsea get a pass. City should win it, doubt it will be the landslide of last season,, they have to make an impact on the CL and focus on that may keep the others close.

Utd getting 81 points last year was indicative of how bad the lower part of the league was, same with City topping 100, there are hopefully a few more capable teams to make it all a little more competitive.
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Every team plays the same number betwern 19 team. If the lower table is do bad it'll mean they're also bad for liverpool, tottenham, chelsea and arsenal.

Maybe not 6 team battling for a title. But last season were actually competing head to head with totenham and liverpool for 2nd position. So it's not like we only compete with city.
 

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Finishing 2nd didn't fit with many posters agendas unfortunately.

Our excellent form towards the end of the season made us finish a firm 2nd place and I think many 'fans' were annoyed and disappointed that Mourinho did a good job.

As a result fans have changed the 'Mourinho Out, we didn't finish top 4' argument to 'Mourinho out - for his god awful football', despite our football being largely decent. Then it changed to 'Mourinho out - we didn't get 105 points and beat City to the league' despite City having a far superior squad and a world class spine for the past 5 years and the most spend, Then it changed to 'Mourinho out, he is too hard on the sensitive players, he'll ruin their careers', Luke Shaw is then arguably United's best player in August and he gets called up to England.

Love it. Keep going Jose, with the squad you inherited 2nd place was an overachievement last season, winning the Europa was an overachievement the season before.
 

The Boy

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Jonno said:
Finishing 2nd didn't fit with many posters agendas unfortunately.

Our excellent form towards the end of the season made us finish a firm 2nd place and I think many 'fans' were annoyed and disappointed that Mourinho did a good job.

As a result fans have changed the 'Mourinho Out, we didn't finish top 4' argument to 'Mourinho out - for his god awful football', despite our football being largely decent. Then it changed to 'Mourinho out - we didn't get 105 points and beat City to the league' despite City having a far superior squad and a world class spine for the past 5 years and the most spend, Then it changed to 'Mourinho out, he is too hard on the sensitive players, he'll ruin their careers', Luke Shaw is then arguably United's best player in August and he gets called up to England.
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This. As a non united fan, I watched you fall off a cliff with Moyes and an aging squad. Go for a scatter gun approach under Van Gaal in terms of transfers and some very tedious tactics that constrained some of the best players in your squad. To Jose, who brought in some class and experience in season 1 to steady a very rocky ship, consolidate and build on that in season 2 and now in season 3 it seems (very early days) that your attack is coming together.

Some of the football last season was excellent and against Spurs and then more so at Burnley, that spirit going forward is emerging again, yes you had a terrible game against us, but that happens occasionally to all teams and it seems to have woken your lot up, I think you're on the up but what do I know, I'm just an outsider looking in!
 
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ThierryHenry14

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I would say don't even take 6th place for granted. I am also referring to Arsenal as well.
 

mav_9me

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ThierryHenry14 said:
I would say don't even take 6th place for granted. I am also referring to Arsenal as well.
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You know I thought of it. But do Leicester, Everton or Wolves really have the squad? So basically top 6 by default for United and maybe even Chelsea
 

Womp

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Was funny at the time, but it's looking like we massively overachieved in regards to where we finished that season. We are between the 6th and 8th best team in England.
 

vangagal

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Liverpool finished 4th with 25 points drifts away but yet they got into next season completed the squad and just 1 point away from won it.
And yes, just look at the table many took it for granted. It because the manager many dismiss it quickly. Had it be Ole, even with the same playing style, i bet many would proclaim him to be second coming of Jesus now.

We got a decent platform to build from back then but we choose the very worst way to do it.
 
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