Road Trip Draft II QF: Michaelf vs 2mufc0/Theon

Who will win based on all the players at their club career peak as mentioned?


  • Total voters
    13
  • Poll closed .

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,022
Location
Moscow
Welcome to the Road Trip Draft II KO Stage.

Only the club career for the clubs mentioned against player names will be considered for evaluation. No national teams performances count whatsoever.




Team Michaelf7777777 --------------------------------- Team 2mufc0/Theon ---------------------------

Team Michaelf7777777

My team will play a 4-4-2 midfield diamond formation with the front 2 being inside forwards cutting in from the wings. This formation is based on that used by the French national team in the 1980's for which Michel Platini was the star player.

We'll now consider the pedigree of my players in their selected countries. Four of my players played in the Soviet Union league. I have been able to find two measures of player quality in the Soviet Union. Firstly there is the Soviet Union footballer of the year which was awarded from 1964 onwards which was voted on by journalists. Secondly, there is the best 33 football players of the season in the USSR (link:
https://translate.google.com/transl...c.academic.ru/dic.nsf/ruwiki/685003&sandbox=1) which ranks the best 3 players of the season in each position in the Soviet Union. This was awarded each season by the Presidum of the Football Federation with the list being approved by the National Coaches Council. Dasayev had 1 first (1982), 2 seconds (1983, 1988) and 1 third (1987) in the Soviet Union footballer of the year award. In the best 33 players list he was number 1 in his position 9 times (1979-1983, 1985-1988) and 2nd once (1984). Anatoliy Demyanenko won the Soviet Footballer of the Year Award in 1985 and finished 2nd in 1982. In the best 33 players list, Demyanenko was ranked first in his position 7 times (1981-1986, 1988) second 1 time (1980) and third 1 time (1979). Valery Voronin won the Soviet Footballer of the Year award in both 1964 and 1965 which were the first two years of the awards existence. In the best 33 players list Voronin finished first in his position 4 times (1961, 1963-1965) and second twice (1960, 1966). Oleg Blokhin won the Soviet footballer of the year award 3 times (1973-1975), finished second 4 times (1977-1978, 1980-1981) and third 2 times (1976, 1986). In the best 33 players list he finished first in his position 13 times (1972-1982, 1985-1986) and second 2 times (1983-1984). Additionally Blokhin won the Ballon d'Or in 1975.

With regards to my other players. While playing in Spain, Dani Alves was in the FIFpro World XI, the UEFA team of the year and the ESM team of the year on 5 occassions. Gaetano Scirea won 7 Serie A titles and each of the three main European club trophies once with Juventus. Scirea was also chosen as a member of Juventus's greatest XI of all time in 2017. Elias Figueroa was the best foreign player in Brazil in the 20th century. During his five seasons in Brazil he was South American Footballer of the year 3 times (1974-1976) as well as being the best centreback in Brazil 4 times (1973-1976). Bozsik spent his entire club career in Hungary winning the Hungarian league 5 times and being Hungarian footballer of the year in 1952. Bernd Schuster won the Don Ballon award for best foreign player in La Liga twice (1985, 1991). Additionally, during his time in La Liga Schuster finished third in the Ballon d'Or 2 times (1981, 1985) as well as finishing 2nd in the 1980 Ballon d'Or although he spent some of that year in Germany. During his time in Italy, Michel Platini won the Ballon d'Or 3 times (1983-1985) while also finishing as the top scorer in Serie A three times in consecutive seasons (1982-83, 1983-84 and 1984-85). Jupp Heynckes, in his second spell at Borussia Monchengladbach scored 232 goals in 309 games (including consecutive seasons of 48 goals in 53 games, 40 goals in 43 games and 42 goals in 43 games). Heynckes was in Kicker's Bundesliga team of the season 3 times (1971-72, 1973-74 and 1974-75) as well as being the top scorer in the Bundesliga 2 times (1973-74 and 1974-75), European Cup once (1975-76), UEFA Cup twice (1972-73 and 1974-75) and the Cup Winners Cup once (1973-74).

Team 2mufc0/Theon

Tactically we have built the team around Lionel Messi inspired by his most devastating iteration as the the false #9 in a 4-3-3 formation. The system has been heavily inspired by Pep's dominant Barcelona team to get the best out of our talisman. Averaging a goal every game and winning four Ballon d'Ors in a row, Messi is arguably the most devastating club footballer of all time during this period. With a possession based set-up Messi will be granted full freedom to drop deep towards midfield where he can pick up the ball, create space for others and utilise his dribbling/passing ability to slice open the opposition back line. When approaching the goal Messi will be both creator and finisher, equally comfortable slipping in the inside forwards with a through ball as skipping through challenges to finish himself.

In another ode to Pep's Barcelona set up, we have partnered Messi with two goal-scoring inside forwards who are equally comfortable with technical wingplay on the flanks as they are penetrating the centre of the park to race through on goal. On the left we have Anderlecht legend Rob Rensenbrink, who rattled 173 goals in 304 games for Anderlecht, hitting 20+ goals in 6 out of 9 seasons there. The right side has been upgraded with Bayern & Germany legend Karl-Heinz Rummenigge, like Rensenbrink he was a quality creator and scorer, with 217 goals in 422 appearances for Bayern. His intelligent runs, creativity and goal scoring ability will be the perfect foil on the right hand side, also with his immense work rate he fits the system to a tee. Both of the wide men are technically brilliant footballers and comfortable playing possession football and intricate play in the final third and able to expose the space created by Messi with their movement.

In the middle of the park we have opted for a trio who are comfortable on the ball and capable of both maintaining possession and penetrating more directly. In the hybrid-attacking #8/#10 role Iniesta can again link up with Messi to re-create one of the most proven and dominant combinations in domestic football. Sitting slightly deeper in midfield is Paul Scholes (in his '06-'09 playmaker iteration) who has the technical ability to keep the ball and set up attacks with his devastating passing range (his cross-field passes to Kalle and Rensenbrink should work wonders here). With his striking ability Scholes also has a knack of getting a few goals himself and in a fluid possession team he will find himself in these forward positions. Acting as the holding midfielder we have the Brazilian Cerezo, a member of the legendary Brazil '82 international side who should slot seamlessly into the technical set up we have implemented. At over 6ft with an excellent engine, Cerezo is capable of dictating play from deeper positions whist also being defensively sound and providing protection for the defence - at his best he was the highest rated footballer in Brazil ahead of Falcao and Zico which is testament to his quality.

In defence we have significantly upgraded the weakest area of Pep's Barcelona. In the centre of the defence Nesta & Vidic provide a rock solid defensive core, with both being part of two of the best defensive units in the history of club football (definitely the case for the 00's onwards). As a partnership the sweeping/covering style of Nesta is well complimented by the physical dominance and aerial presence of Vidic - indeed there are clear similarities to Rio/Vidic and with all the hallmarks of a dominant partnership. The left back position is significantly upgraded with one of the all-time GOATs Giacinto Facchetti providing defensive solidity and unrivalled attacking threat down the wing - we all know how Messi loves the switch of play to the Alba on the left who has proved devastating for Barcelona and should be equally effective here (if not more so). The right back position has been greatly improved by bringing in Cafu, who in Peps system would be a big upgrade defensively on Alves whilst not compromising on the attacking output. He was also brilliant in his early days in Brazil (Sao Paulo, 89-95) where he won the Copa Libertadores back to back (92 & 93), was the South American footballer of the year in 1994 and selected in the South American Team of the Year in 92, 93, 94 and 95. On the back of this form he was also selected for Brazil in the 94 world cup. In goal is Jose Chilavert a goal keeper that was great on the ball and carried a goal threat on top of his superb goal keeping skills. During his time in Argentina he won both the Argentinian and South American footballer of the year in 1996.

Good luck @Michaelf7777777 @2mufc0 @Theon
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,022
Location
Moscow
Surprisingly, Cerezo has a pretty decent record against Platini - 9 games, 2 goals by the Frenchman, even though it's hard to say whenever they were playing directly against each other (it certainly wasn't the case in 86/87 and Cerezo often played in a relatively attacking role for Roma).

2mufc0 has an edge in terms of the personnel (Messi, Kalle, Cafu, Facchetti), but Michaelf's central core is just sublime — and I prefer Voronin over Cerezo (even though he has a decent record against Platini) here as a more defensive-oriented version, since every other midfielder on the pitch has a preference towards attacking/playmaking. His experience in dealing with Albert in a false 9 role will come in handy as well, even though Messi is in a tier of his own. I'd also count Dasaev vs Chilavert as an advantage towards Michaelf.

Overall, I think it's strikingly similar to the way our game with @Jim Beam went over.
 

2mufc0

Everything is fair game in capitalism!
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
17,013
Supports
Dragon of Dojima
Surprisingly, Cerezo has a pretty decent record against Platini - 9 games, 2 goals by the Frenchman, even though it's hard to say whenever they were playing directly against each other (it certainly wasn't the case in 86/87 and Cerezo often played in a relatively attacking role for Roma).

2mufc0 has an edge in terms of the personnel (Messi, Kalle, Cafu, Facchetti), but Michaelf's central core is just sublime — and I prefer Voronin over Cerezo (even though he has a decent record against Platini) here as a more defensive-oriented version, since every other midfielder on the pitch has a preference towards attacking/playmaking. His experience in dealing with Albert in a false 9 role will come in handy as well, even though Messi is in a tier of his own. I'd also count Dasaev vs Chilavert as an advantage towards Michaelf.

Overall, I think it's strikingly similar to the way our game with @Jim Beam went over.
I would agree Voronin is a better player than Cerezo, but here Voronin is facing a much tougher task against Messi imo. Whilst I think the biggest mis match will be on the the wings where I think we can exploit, Kalle/Cafu vs Demyanenko and Rensenbrink/Cafu vs Alves, I think it will be a bit too much.

Cant disagree with your comments regarding his core, it's brilliant.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,022
Location
Moscow
I would agree Voronin is a better player than Cerezo, but here Voronin is facing a much tougher task against Messi imo.
It's not even that he is a better player, it's that he's better defensively (and more suited to a man-marking mission). I'd probably put them around the same level overall, with Cerezo being better offensively. But yeah, Messi is a tougher opponent than Platini and any other false 9 imaginable.
 

Jim Beam

Gets aroused by men in low socks
Joined
Feb 10, 2017
Messages
13,076
Location
All over the place
Wow. Quite a match-up. I thought from the start 2mufc/theon drafted best and then they added Cafu and Kalle on top of that. It is an immense and very complementary team on paper (thank feck Scholes is finally in such a team). Hard to find anything to point or "complain" looking at it. I even rate Cerezo very high and would not put big, or any margin between him and Voronin especially since Cerezo in theory should thrive is this set-up.

The fact that Michaelf is running them close in terms of quality, both team and individual is an achievement in itself. GOAT CB pairing and that midfield is thing of beauty. Will have to think about it a bit more.
 

Physiocrat

Has No Mates
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
8,970
@2mufc0 How direct is your side playing? Personnel wise it seems much more direct than peak Barca Xaviesta and if so how would Iniesta suit the system. IIRC he performed less well in non-tiki taki sides than Xavi (I was watching some highlights of Utd vs Barca in '99 and Xavi played DM behind Giovanni and Rivaldo in a midfield three - LVG became more conservative in his old age)

@Michaelf7777777 How good was Scriea covering outwide? I know he could rampage forward well on the right but not sure how well he'd be suited to covering behind Alves
 

2mufc0

Everything is fair game in capitalism!
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
17,013
Supports
Dragon of Dojima
@2mufc0 How direct is your side playing? Personnel wise it seems much more direct than peak Barca Xaviesta and if so how would Iniesta suit the system. IIRC he performed less well in non-tiki taki sides than Xavi (I was watching some highlights of Utd vs Barca in '99 and Xavi played DM behind Giovanni and Rivaldo in a midfield three - LVG became more conservative in his old age)

@Michaelf7777777 How good was Scriea covering outwide? I know he could rampage forward well on the right but not sure how well he'd be suited to covering behind Alves
I think @Theon kind of addressed this in our last game


Just seen this - really don’t agree at all. Rensenbrink and Robben are pretty much the sterotype inside forwards you would want to play in a false #9 Barcelona side - quick, dynamic goalscorers capable of both playing on the outside and cutting infield to get on the end of Messi’s / Iniesta’s throughballs. I agree with you that they should play a direct style but that’s not incompatible with a possession based approach elsewhere on the park (Messi for example is also a very direct player).

If you look at the inside forwards from that era the likes of Pedro, Villa, Sanchez, Henry were all direct wide goal scorers as opposed to ‘possession players’ and Robben and Rensenbrink fit that same role to a tee.

Within Pep’s Barca it was principally the midfield and defence who dominated the ball as opposed to wingers - similarly at City now, where Sterling, Mahrez or Sane would all play a more direct game from the flanks despite being in a possession orientated side. And as mentioned Robben played successfully under Pep in a possession set up for Bayern Munich - scored 40 goals in 75 games over the first two seasons.
I would say this system is closer to the 09 version (wihh Eto and Henry) than the later 11 version.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
I would say this system is closer to the 09 version (wihh Eto and Henry) than the later 11 version.
To be fair, Messi wasn't a false 9 there. And midfield wise, I think both were tiki takas (09 and 11). More direct versions would be the ones after Xavi era was over
 

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
On the game, I think @Michaelf7777777 could have reinforced better.

Heynckes really shouldn't play past the first round in this draft.

Scirea again was surplus to needs.

I'd probably have replaced Heynckes and maybe Zanetti at RB.

The team tactically in itself is pretty solid. It loses points largely on quality compared to the opposition.

Still a great Eastern European effort. I really liked the writeup about the players' performances in the leagues. Especially the 4 Soviets.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
I'm not sure that Khurtsilava at CB is a better bet than Heynckes at RF.
In a 3 man attack, Heynckes is 1/3rd of it. Might have been okay as the odd man out in a 4 man attack.

Alongside Figueroa, Khurtsilava could have survived one more round for me if someone like Zanetti was also added to the mix.
 

Jim Beam

Gets aroused by men in low socks
Joined
Feb 10, 2017
Messages
13,076
Location
All over the place
@2mufc0 How direct is your side playing? Personnel wise it seems much more direct than peak Barca Xaviesta and if so how would Iniesta suit the system. IIRC he performed less well in non-tiki taki sides than Xavi (I was watching some highlights of Utd vs Barca in '99 and Xavi played DM behind Giovanni and Rivaldo in a midfield three - LVG became more conservative in his old age)
Iniesta suffered the most with Pep and then Xavi slowing down a bit and leaving. Barcelona couldn't (or wouldn't try to) control the possession the same way and once Rakitic step into the midfield average position of Iniesta drastically changed. Read some article about it, will try to find it. Number of goals, shots on goal, even number of passes made by Iniesta were cut almost by half in Rakitic debut season with Barcelona as they played much more direct football like you say.

But, with Cerezo and Scholes here, he should be fully in his element imo. This side is much more reflective of Pep Barca then Martino or Enrique version.
 

Physiocrat

Has No Mates
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
8,970
Iniesta suffered the most with Pep and then Xavi slowing down a bit and leaving. Barcelona couldn't (or wouldn't try to) control the possession the same way and once Rakitic step into the midfield average position of Iniesta drastically changed. Read some article about it, will try to find it. Number of goals, shots on goal, even number of passes made by Iniesta were cut almost by half in Rakitic debut season with Barcelona as they played much more direct football like you say.
I thought that was the case. Would be good if you could find the article. If it was a positional change then I'd be happy with Iniesta in the side, if he had broadly the same position with more direct players around him, then it could be a problem.
 

Jim Beam

Gets aroused by men in low socks
Joined
Feb 10, 2017
Messages
13,076
Location
All over the place
I thought that was the case. Would be good if you could find the article. If it was a positional change then I'd be happy with Iniesta in the side, if he had broadly the same position with more direct players around him, then it could be a problem.
Meh, looked a bit, but can't find the original article. There are some different ones which shows his influence and position clearly changed during the 1st season with Rakitic, although the one I talked about was much better as it had an average heat map and passing/shooting comparisons looking at his previous seasons.

Here is one which talks about it:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...ssists-dried-up-for-barcelonas-andres-iniesta

Given the emergence of Neymar and, more recently, Luis Suarez this season, Iniesta has been forced to adopt a deeper role—one that Xavi Hernandez might normally have played.

With Xavi's appearances this term being sporadic, Luis Enrique has used Iniesta in areas that he would previously not have been required to cover.

Looking at last season's template, it was Iniesta who would be making the driving runs into the box, penetrating at the heart of the opposition defence. Neymar was hesitant about moving in off of the touchline, and Xavi would be probing from that deeper standpoint, which allowed Iniesta to be the supplementary attacker down the left side.
The fact that Barcelona have three prolific scorers up front has seen Iniesta take on a deeper role with greater responsibility for building up the play.

In years gone by this was almost exclusively Xavi's stomping ground, but this season it has not been uncommon to see Iniesta on the edge of his own area or helping his team win the ball back.
Will post that original one if I manage to find it.
 

Physiocrat

Has No Mates
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
8,970
@Jim Beam Excellent stuff. It doesn't seem then it is the more direct nature of their play but rather he was shunted deeper. I'm glad I know that because I have been rather fussy with respect to Iniesta in the past.
 

Jim Beam

Gets aroused by men in low socks
Joined
Feb 10, 2017
Messages
13,076
Location
All over the place
Tbf @Physiocrat, it was a mix of both, as he was brought deeper and at the same time Barcelona moved away from possession based system with the intention of getting the ball as fast as it can to the front three from their midfield. Even CB's started to average more touches per game then Barcelona midfield players and once that front three couldn't sustain their brilliant form they weren't the same team.

For example, just look at Busquets number of passes against the same team at home in 2013 and 2016/17 season or what was Enrique last season.



Anyway, and to stop blabbering, think Iniesta is more then fine here.