Marcus Rashford vs Tammy Abraham

Seaman

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RVP would have been written off as not good either at Rashford's age. Not many 21 year olds lead their teams to league titles.
I agree. But United has made a 21 year old their main attacker and reward him as a top striker. How many 21 year old strikers who are for the future gets Rashfords wages. It all come down to not getting replacement fotr Lukaku which was criminal decision imo.

Another issue with Rashford is he is being messed around being played all over the place. He needs a fix position and really learn that position.
 

SportingCP96

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RVP would have been written off as not good either at Rashford's age. Not many 21 year olds lead their teams to league titles.
Obviously and I am
Not expecting that, I am saying I don’t see him as a starter for a title contender in the future.
 

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As I'm still a newbie, this is the last post for me for today.

Maybe I should clarify that I think Rashford is a very good player and someone mentioned above Sterling's career and that is actually true. I also thought Sterling was overrated in the past, still he is not a natural finisher and that holds him back when compared to other great players. But for me, Sterling is not overrated anymore because of his resilience, he has the character to fight adversity and he was able to get criticism on board from his manager. I think that a humble attitude is quite often overlooked as a very important quality to have when you try to get the best out of you. Do you think Rashford has the right attitude to overcome his limitations? Does he think he still has a lot to prove and improve?

I compared Rashford to all these great players only because they topped their respective leagues goal-wise, there was no agenda. And if Manchester United were to win the PL, Rashford, and Martial (the main 2 attacking outlets) would have been there at the top as well. When you win the league, you score the most (or sometimes second-most) and your forward players, be that strikers or wingers would naturally contribute the most.

And that maybe is the best way to put it. It is like a 2-way street, what United can do to improve Rashford and what ultimately Rashford can do for United.
 
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He has showed plenty of potential as a winger and also in few times when he played as CF. I wanted him to play as CF and given extended run of games which I dont think will happen now as Martial will be our 9.

People just forget that he is just 21 years old, all these great wingers, how many were regular scores at Rashford's age? Rashford played many games as sub, so converting his mins into games equivalent, his PL record.
2015-16: 7 goals + assists in 9 games. 0.73 G+A per game
2016-17: 6 goals + assists in 19 games. 0.3 G+A per game
2017-18: 12 goals + assists in 20 games. 0.59 G+A per game
2018-19: 16 goals + assists in 26 games. 0.73 G+A per game

All this playing as winger (most games) under Jose who was defensive manager. That's a good record.

People just ignore his total mins and compare with strikers when he is winger and played around 50% of total mins.

It's too early to make calls, he has done a lot at young age to believe he will be very good player for us.
Transfermarkt has Rashford having played CF for 7100 mins, LW for 3200 mins and RW for 945 mins so it appears 63% as a CF
 

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Transfermarkt has Rashford having played CF for 7100 mins, LW for 3200 mins and RW for 945 mins so it appears 63% as a CF
When did he play as CF? When Zlatan and Lukaku played as wingers? They were our strikers for 3 seasons and played almost all games.
 

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Don't think Ronaldo really played in a true 4-4-2. He was always an inside forward, and would float around wherever he felt like. His tactical indiscipline was the reason we lost a number of games in his early seasons. Gary Neville still talks about that all the time. The reason why they all got comfortable with it eventually is because he would win you games with his quality and skill, and the rest of team started carrying him defensively.

Giggs (as the other winger) was tactically much more disciplined. I honestly believe that its the quality of Ronaldo and Messi combined (in that inside forward position) which changed the way managers want their forwards to attack. Before 2004-05, such players were not expected to provide a primary goal threat, and moving inside into the spaces of the attacking / box to box midfielder was generally coached out of you. They were expected to create chances/ make assists. With the Ronaldo/ Messi era - we have seen this much more. Robben, Ribery, Hazard, Pedro etc.

If I'm not wrong, the only ones who effectively played like this before 2003-04 were Barcelona (with Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, and Henry).
I'd have to cordially disagree. For me Ronaldo played out on the wing in a traditional sense and many journos agree. He often picked the ball up deep and drove it forward. I actually felt he tracked back too much for a flairy player and should of been freed up earlier in his career.
I viewed it as once we moved to 433 and pushed him forwards, playing 3 in midfield freed him up and gave him this free role. He was more disciplined than you remember in his earlier years.
Robben came before Ronaldo and Messi mind...Chelsea employed that tactic from day one.
 

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When did he play as CF? When Zlatan and Lukaku played as wingers? They were our strikers for 3 seasons and played almost all games.
After Mourinho was sacked he pretty much exclusively played up front last season (he played up front even prior to that because Lukaku was injured for a chunk of the opening half of the season). After Zlatan got injured in 16/17 he played the rest of the season up front. Don't think it's 60% mind, but he's had a fair number of games up front.
 

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When did he play as CF? When Zlatan and Lukaku played as wingers? They were our strikers for 3 seasons and played almost all games.
according to the site his CF appearances were;
2016 Europa x 2, FA Cup x 4, EPL x 11
2017 league cup x 1, CC x 1, FA Cup x 3, EPL x 11, Europa x 5 (remember Zlatan got injured sometimes)
2018 League cup x 2, CL x 2, EPL x 11, FA Cup x 3,
2019 FA Cup x 3, CL x 7, EPL x 21,

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/mar...&verein=&liga=&wettbewerb=&pos=14&trainer_id= includes a breakdown of the games
 

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When did he play as CF? When Zlatan and Lukaku played as wingers? They were our strikers for 3 seasons and played almost all games.
Whilst Ole was here Lukaku was the winger
 

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After Mourinho was sacked he pretty much exclusively played up front last season (he played up front even prior to that because Lukaku was injured for a chunk of the opening half of the season). After Zlatan got injured in 16/17 he played the rest of the season up front. Don't think it's 60% mind, but he's had a fair number of games up front.
Lukaku started 50% of league games under Ole, so we can rule out at least those 50% games?

Last season I think he played around 1300-1600 mins as CF in the league.

He got few games under Jose too but not run of games. One cup game here and there.

Forget position, before last season he played around 50% of league mins in each season.
 

Cassidy

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1 game I think it was against Arsenal in FA Cup game.
Actually to be honest we played with split strikers to technically he played as a CF in that game with Rashford also as CF
 

roonster09

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according to the site his CF appearances were;
2016 Europa x 2, FA Cup x 4, EPL x 11
2017 league cup x 1, CC x 1, FA Cup x 3, EPL x 11, Europa x 5 (remember Zlatan got injured sometimes)
2018 League cup x 2, CL x 2, EPL x 11, FA Cup x 3,
2019 FA Cup x 3, CL x 7, EPL x 21,

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/mar...&verein=&liga=&wettbewerb=&pos=14&trainer_id= includes a breakdown of the games
Check the mins in whoscored.com to see how many mins he played in league in each season.

Only under Ole he got run of games, before that he played around 800-900 mins in 2 seasons as CF.
 

roonster09

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Actually to be honest we played with split strikers to technically he played as a CF in that game with Rashford also as CF
We played split strikers in very few games when Martial and Rashford played together.
 

roonster09

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I was refering to Arsenal
I think Rashford didn't even start vs Arsenal. I think it was Sanchez and Lukaku, with Martial and Rashford coming on as a sub. Maybe wrong btw, didn't check.
 

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I think Rashford didn't even start vs Arsenal. I think it was Sanchez and Lukaku, with Martial and Rashford coming on as a sub. Maybe wrong btw, didn't check.
Yes Rashford did not start that match. It was Lukaku/Sanchez combo that destroyed Arsenal.
 

Cassidy

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@roonster09 just to clarify here are the games since Ole took over

Cardiff away 1-5 433 Rashford CF
Huddersfield home 3-1 4231 Rashford CF
Bournemouth home 4-1 4231 Rashford CF
Newcastle away 0-2 4231 Rashford CF
Reading home 2-0 433 Rashford sub
Spurs away 0-1 442 diamond Rashford CF
Brighton home 2-1 433 Rashford CF
Arsenal away 1-3 4321 sub
Burnley home 2-2 4141 Rashford LW
Leicester away 0-1 4222 Rashford CF
Fulham away 0-3 433 Rashford sub
PSG home 2-0 433 Rashford CF
Chelsea away 0-2 4312 Rashford CF (with Lukaku)
Liverpool home 0-0 4312 Rashford CF (with Lukaku)
Palace away 1-3 433 Rashford sub
Southampton home 3-2 4312 Rashford CF (with Lukaku)
PSG away 1-3 442 Rashford CF (with Lukaku)
Arsenal away 2-0 442 Rashford CF (with Lukaku)
Wolves away 2-1 4321 Rashford CF
Watford home 2-1 4321 Rashford CF
Wolves away 2-1 3511 Rashford sub
Barca home 0-1 352 Rashford CF (with Lukaku)
WestHam home 2-1 4231 Rashford sub
Barca away 3-0 4312 Rashford CF
Everton away 4-0 433 Rashford RW
City home 0-2 532 Rashford CF
Chelsea home 1-1 4312 Rashford CF (with Lukaku)
Huddersfield away 1-1 4312 Rashford CF
Cardiff home 0-2 4312 Rashford CF

So out of the games Rashford started he played:

21 games as a striker (7 of those with Lukaku as his partner)
1 game at LW
1 game at RW
 

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I'd have to cordially disagree. For me Ronaldo played out on the wing in a traditional sense and many journos agree. He often picked the ball up deep and drove it forward. I actually felt he tracked back too much for a flairy player and should of been freed up earlier in his career.
I viewed it as once we moved to 433 and pushed him forwards, playing 3 in midfield freed him up and gave him this free role. He was more disciplined than you remember in his earlier years.
Robben came before Ronaldo and Messi mind...Chelsea employed that tactic from day one.
Maybe I remember it wrong! Will have to watch a few of those games again...
 

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Rashford is the more proven player with a greater all round game but there’s definitely merit in the argument that Abraham is more of a centre forward. He actually knows where to be inside the box, irrespective of whether or not he’s good enough to play up top for Chelsea. With Rashford I just don’t see that movement and instinct.
 

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This.

Rashford himself said that he doesn't see himself as a 9. He imagines himself part of an interchangeable front line.
Well Rashford is not a number 9 for starters.
To me this is an issue. When he broke through he was pacey, clinical, instinctive striker and I thought "wow, we have our very own Michael Owen, Andy Cole, Ian Wright Defoe, Torres - proper fast striker number 9 goal poacher" He looked ice cool and I was delighted to have a player like that come through our academy. Through a combination of being deployed out wide and his own belief in his future role, he Seems to be leaning towards a wide forward like Ronaldo but I don't think he has those tools. His ability is far more simple than people (and maybe himself) actually believe. He should play as a limited fast striker who runs onto balls and finishes as opposed to a complete forward. Thats what I thought he was when he broke through. Playing him out wide and trying to mould him into a complete forward may have temporarily stunted his development as a poacher/striker due to the role change (jack of all trades). Imagine if he played 200 games as a CF, he would probably be more refined. It's like if Spurs pushed Defoe out wide it may have hindered him. It would of been better to focus on the one position and not a wide forward and I think Ian Wright said something similar. He may not even have been a natural striker to begin with but he certainly looked it when he broke through. He may of kicked on if we kept him up there.
 

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Rashford is the more proven player with a greater all round game but there’s definitely merit in the argument that Abraham is more of a centre forward. He actually knows where to be inside the box, irrespective of whether or not he’s good enough to play up top for Chelsea. With Rashford I just don’t see that movement and instinct.
Aye. Abraham's header the other day impressed me, good movement and a quality headed finish, something I love my centre forwards to be able to do. He already looks the better pure number nine of him and Rashford, though the latter has other tools to trouble defenders. I miss seeing him run in behind, but as our midfield cannot provide through balls quickly or incisively enough it's not a weapon we tend to use.

I'd probably say at this stage Rashford probably needs a loan, maybe to Everton or somewhere like that. Bite?
 

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To me this is an issue. When he broke through he was pacey, clinical, instinctive striker and I thought "wow, we have our very own Michael Owen, Andy Cole, Ian Wright Defoe, Torres - proper fast striker number 9 goal poacher" He looked ice cool and I was delighted to have a player like that come through our academy. Through a combination of being deployed out wide and his own belief in his future role, he Seems to be leaning towards a wide forward like Ronaldo but I don't think he has those tools. His ability is far more simple than people (and maybe himself) actually believe. He should play as a limited fast striker who runs onto balls and finishes as opposed to a complete forward. Thats what I thought he was when he broke through. Playing him out wide and trying to mould him into a complete forward may have temporarily stunted his development as a poacher/striker due to the role change (jack of all trades). Imagine if he played 200 games as a CF, he would probably be more refined. It's like if Spurs pushed Defoe out wide it may have hindered him. It would of been better to focus on the one position and not a wide forward and I think Ian Wright said something similar. He may not even have been a natural striker to begin with but he certainly looked it when he broke through. He may of kicked on if we kept him up there.
Good post and thoroughly agreed. He needs to accept his limitations on the ball, chiefly in ball manipulation, control and dribbling in tight spaces.

When he broke through he seemed very much in the Owen mould. If he can come to terms with his skillset and regain his movement, and build some on finishing etc, he can still be a squad player, maybe even a starter striker for a team aspiring to the top.

A loan to a lower mid table team may do him good, but we lack cover at the moment, and few teams would be willing to pay his wages.
 
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CLK_FPC

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Explain to us why you think that so?
Rashford isn't an 'amazing' striker or even a very good one, there was a 'lethalness' to his game when he first broke through (the Man City goal) that comes and goes now. For as long as I've watched Abraham he's been a goal scorer, looks like scoring goals comes a bit more natural to him, especially his play inside the box. May be he's on a high and it doesn't last but even in this spell here, he's looking like a proper striker
 

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You can't be serious with the Pythagoras perspective subtitle.
 

The_Midfielder

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Rashford is the bigger talent .. But sadly he is at out club.. If he was at City/Pool, he would be banging in
 

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Tammy scored more goals so far because he’s playing under Lampard. They are playing better football & attacking. Even Rashford constantly scored goals in Ole’s first few games in charge. I don’t see Tammy to be a top striker, he lacks strength to bully defenders & he’s not very good at holding the ball as well. May be he has a unique style that I fail to see but I don’t see any potential in him to make it to the top.
 

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Rashford is the bigger talent .. But sadly he is at out club.. If he was at City/Pool, he would be banging in
He is lucky to be at our club. He wouldn't have got a chance as sub in any other top clubs.

He can be very useful for a team like crystal palace though where opposition doesn't always pack their defenses. He will get more open games and more goals.
 

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He is lucky to be at our club. He wouldn't have got a chance as sub in any other top clubs.

He can be very useful for a team like crystal palace though where opposition doesn't always pack their defenses. He will get more open games and more goals.
I agree,we as fans are very good at overrate younger players!
 

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Abraham is a better striker obviously, his scoring record says so. I'm not convinced rashford is a striker at all though. I think he's more a Bale type of player.
 

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Abraham will never score a freekick like that in his entire career :drool:
 

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I see this is only brought up when Abraham is doing well?
Still think Abraham is a better striker but Rashford is a much better player. I think it’s because this place is hyperbole, when we beat Norwich we were back but it’s our first away win in the league since March and when we lose we are getting relegated.

Fans like building up players just to tear them down but Rashford has the mentality and talent to succeed here and is a better player than Tammy
 

Inigo Montoya

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Still think Abraham is a better striker but Rashford is a much better player. I think it’s because this place is hyperbole, when we beat Norwich we were back but it’s our first away win in the league since March and when we lose we are getting relegated.

Fans like building up players just to tear them down but Rashford has the mentality and talent to succeed here and is a better player than Tammy
That's the caf for you. It's become pathetic.

If Greewood goes 6 games without scoring,he'll be consigned to the rubbish bin.

Yet you can bet the same posters will be singing the praises of footballers they've never seen live in Germany, France etc but are convinced are what we need