Paul Pogba

fergiesarmy1 said:

I’d rather spend the Pogba money whatever that will be on a couple of midfielders who will regularly contribute rather than move into another year hoping he will come good.

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Do you actually think you'll find a couple of midfielders who will be able to contribute any more than Pogba has on this team? I don't.

I do think you can maybe find forwards that can contribute more than Lingard, Rashford, or Martial (although he gives me the most hope out of all three), or a midfielder better than McTominay (who I actually like) or Matic/Fred. Again, Pogba should be the last person to be sold, but I get your point that he would at least be the only player that could generate a big transfer fee, I just don't agree that you'll be able to find reinforcements that would contribute more than he has/can.

Do we have a bit of an investment fallacy with Pogba?

That we spent so much "bringing him home" and that we know on his day he can score a worldwide but is the penny now dropping that he just isn't that good?

Pow said:

As a neutral watching is it too harsh to say why the feck did he dominate that arsenal midfield who are far weaker slower and less talented than him. If he showed half the urgency guendozi did he could have dominated that game. There was one time in the game he flew through the midfield but that was the only time.

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Then he’d be critiqued for over doing it, not playing as a team player, losing the ball too much.

he’s playing as a 2 man midfield as the deepest playmaker, who else plays that position and runs through teams like a headless chicken?

yes he’s got the ability to do it when there’s space and he did it a few times especially first half. It’s just mindless complaining.

Murder on Zidane's Floor said:

Do we have a bit of an investment fallacy with Pogba?

That we spent so much "bringing him home" and that we know on his day he can score a worldwide but is the penny now dropping that he just isn't that good?

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Actually the investment has been used as a beating stick ever since he's come here, so that doesn't make sense.

Also, Juventus and Real Madrid would love for you to actually believe that and let him go.

Was the World cup 8-9 years ago? He seemed to do pretty well there as well, but I guess he's just older now and past it.

Sayros said:

Do you actually think you'll find a couple of midfielders who will be able to contribute any more than Pogba has on this team? I don't.

I do think you can maybe find forwards that can contribute more than Lingard, Rashford, or Martial (although he gives me the most hope out of all three), or a midfielder better than McTominay (who I actually like) or Matic/Fred. Again, Pogba should be the last person to be sold, but I get your point that he would at least be the only player that could generate a big transfer fee, I just don't agree that you'll be able to find reinforcements that would contribute more than he has/can.

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2 midfielders costing between £100m and the now unlikely fee of £150m that can contribute more than zero goals from open play since February and 2 assists this season? I’d like to think so!

My views on Lingard are about the same as Pogba so no arguments there from me, I still have hopes of Rashford and Martial but seems clear a new striker is a January priority, what we can get then is a different matter.

Adam-Utd said:

I just don’t really see why he always needs to be talked about? Fair enough if he has a stinker then criticise him. Last night he was playing fine.

yes he gives the ball away trying to force things sometimes, but you’ll never go forwards unless you try something ambitious.
our forwards make such poor runs and little movement it’s really hard to find them easily.

Only James when he plays wide left gives us an out ball, but they double marked him after chambers got a yellow.

I just find it odd that people criticised him first for not trying and caring, but he’s not shown any of that this season.

Playing as a midfielder in this team must be a nightmare, but I thought he and Scott did well considering.

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Why do you still waste your time on replying to that troll?

abdo99 said:

Why do you still waste your time on replying to that troll?

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Not sure why I post on redcafe at all anymore. It just seems a strange place full of hate and agendas these days.

Sayros said:

not to mention all the chances created only to be wasted by the forwards.

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If you look at his xA, he's been outperforming it in every season with us except his first one, that was the season Zlatan missed lots of 'big' chances.

https://understat.com/player/1740

I don't think that really supports the idea that the he's being undermined by his forwards in any great way.

Raw said:

Actually mad that McTominay was further forward than Pogba.

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This. Again, despite an average performance by his standards, he is one of our few players that plays incisive forward passes.

He had some nice passes and touches in the game, and quelle surprise, when he started playing well, we actually looked threatening. And of course, it's worth remembering he's coming back from injury and was a doubt for this game.

What's more revealing for me is that the way Pogba is being used underlines our abject failures in the summer. It's hugely frustrating we aren't copying our brief formula for success from last season when Pogba was playing more advanced.

The midfield dilemma that we're facing stems from not replacing Herrera. Ole clearly doesn't trust Fred or Matic to partner McTominay in the PL, and so we are playing Pogba there at a detriment to the team. Game by game it is becoming abundantly clear, if it wasn't already, that it was madness to go into this season without replacing Herrera.

fergiesarmy1 said:

2 midfielders costing between £100m and the now unlikely fee of £150m that can contribute more than zero goals from open play since February and 2 assists this season? I’d like to think so!

My views on Lingard are about the same as Pogba so no arguments there from me, I still have hopes of Rashford and Martial but seems clear a new striker is a January priority, what we can get then is a different matter.

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That's my point, I don't think you're gonna get much of anything if there is no Pogba on the team to sell the idea to a forward as someone who will be feeding them the ball. And what makes you so certain you'd get more than the stats you've listed, or anywhere close to what he was doing last season on this current team? United right now would do well to score more than a goal in a game, and you think two midfielders is going to change that? Who are they? How do they change the inefficiency of the forwards? Again, statistically, Pogba is in the elite of midfielders, the only one you got. Who will United attract that could replace or enhance what he can bring to this team? I would love to see it to be honest, because I'd like to see Pogba thrive somewhere else, and I'd like to see United succeed and get back to winning ways and get back to playing attacking, flowing football. I just don't think replacing him is the answer and I don't think United will attract the kind of players that could make this possible.

Classical Mechanic said:

If you look at his xA, he's been outperforming it in every season with us except his first one, that was the season Zlatan missed lots of 'big' chances.

https://understat.com/player/1740

I don't think that really supports the idea that the he's being undermined by his forwards in any great way.

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Well, first of all, isn't it a good thing that he's outperforming his xA or that's only about the forwards? Second, we all have eyes and we can see that a lot of his forward passes that could create danger don't even get to that point because of poor first touch or poor decisions once the ball is picked up. Does xA account for that as well? I'm genuinely asking because I don't really get into the expected stats, I'm not sure how reliable it is as a statistic. Not only that, but it's not just about assists, it's sometimes about the pass before the assists, which Pogba can potentially create a lot of and simply are gone to waste by the forwards. I don't think xA also accounts for those, or the hockey assist as some call it.

I'm just not convinced by this argument that his forwards are making him look better than he is, which is what I think you're trying to suggest by him outperforming his xA.

He was far from great last night, but had a decent game and was generally one of our better players.

I am not surprised to see the usual suspects out in full force, though.

This fergiearmy guy, in particular, is one of the biggest trolls I ever saw on any forum. 200 posts in this thread alone, every single one of them slating Pogba. Pathetic.

Sayros said:

Do you actually think you'll find a couple of midfielders who will be able to contribute any more than Pogba has on this team? I don't.

I do think you can maybe find forwards that can contribute more than Lingard, Rashford, or Martial (although he gives me the most hope out of all three), or a midfielder better than McTominay (who I actually like) or Matic/Fred. Again, Pogba should be the last person to be sold, but I get your point that he would at least be the only player that could generate a big transfer fee, I just don't agree that you'll be able to find reinforcements that would contribute more than he has/can.

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Maddison and McGinn would together provide more at both ends.

Thats from the top of my head, there's plenty more.

Pogba is like owning a Ferrari and parking it half on the curb outside your Oldham Terrace House, because you don't have a drive/garage. We need to get our priorities right.

Lynty said:

Maddison and McGinn would together provide more at both ends.

Thats from the top of my head, there's plenty more.

Pogba is like owning a Ferrari and parking it half on the curb outside your Oldham Terrace House, because you don't have a drive/garage. We need to get our priorities right.

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Again, what makes you think they would perform at United? When has one player come in recently and played remotely close to the level that got them a transfer here in the first place? James has done great so far, he's a huge exception to the massive rule that has been in place in recent years and let's see how he does as teams are starting to adjust to his game. It's a massive assumption at this point to think anyone can come in and play to their level and lift this team up. The problem is much bigger than that, and I don't think one or two players or even five is the answer. I'm not really sure what the answer is, and I don't think anyone at the club does either. It's easy to say it's the coaching, but so many coaching teams have come and gone and still the team always looks like they're playing their first few games together and just getting to know one another.

Neville and Scholes constantly laying into him. Now Schmeichel having a pop. Very seldom you see them comment on the underperforming players in front of him in this team. Why, in a team sport has the focus on this one player become so consuming?

I thought he was decent last night, two or three very good passes and made himself available to receive it at every opportunity. Felt our midfield two had the better of Arsenal's midfield three. He has four players in front of him. Playing in the nr.10 role is a player who has performed a disappearing act on a grand scale. There isn't a lot to work with here and we should judge him at the same vantage point as other players in this team. They are all starters for Manchester United. But Sky rated Lingard higher than Pogba last night. In what world was Lingard better than Pogba? He did absolutely nothing.

Pogba is playing as the fifth or sixth furthest forward on our team. He'll have moments where he can create, but based on his position on the field and the inexperience or even lack of quality in forward positions he hasn't got a whole lot to work with. Schmeichel said he should be making 15 or so passes to create chances, talk about how the creative weight is unfairly shouldered just by him.

The expectations are so high for one player, but so low for the rest of them. Weird and unhealthy, I can't imagine the club being an attractive spot for a creative player with a good reputation. Pogba is bound to leave next summer, I'm sure of that. But let's get behind those who actually try and create something in this team. The club and it's supporters are shooting themselves in the foot again. It reeks of the Nani situation. The right winger who in the end was booed off in a game at Old Trafford. Since then we've not seen a thing from the right wing. Now we are out with pitchforks, aimed at Pogba and come next season, we will not understand why we still aren't scoring, having replaced Pogba with Longstaff who has a terrific body language, the greatest trade there is.

ottosec said:

He was far from great last night, but had a decent game and was generally one of our better players.

I am not surprised to see the usual suspects out in full force, though.

This fergiearmy guy, in particular, is one of the biggest trolls I ever saw on any forum. 200 posts in this thread alone, every single one of them slating Pogba. Pathetic.

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Pretty low percentage if I am a troll, not sure how you find out how many posts but I’d like to see the figures of the likes of halal jalal who I’ve only ever seen post in a pogba thread.

I think I did one in his defence saying he played with better players at Juve not too long ago

@Sayros

What Pogba did last season? Take away the penalties and it wasn’t anything to write home about.

Sayros said:

Again, what makes you think they would perform at United? When has one player come in recently and played remotely close to the level that got them a transfer here in the first place? James has done great so far, he's a huge exception to the massive rule that has been in place in recent years and let's see how he does as teams are starting to adjust to his game. It's a massive assumption at this point to think anyone can come in and play to their level and lift this team up. The problem is much bigger than that, and I don't think one or two players or even five is the answer. I'm not really sure what the answer is, and I don't think anyone at the club does either. It's easy to say it's the coaching, but so many coaching teams have come and gone and still the team always looks like they're playing their first few games together and just getting to know one another.

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Maguire, Wan Bissaka and James have all started well. Martial has done OK (at the time the fee seemed excessive) but now, where are we getting a striker for £36m with his output and potential. Blind, Mata, Matic, Herrera, Fellani, Lindelof, Rojo, Dalot have performed as expected (due to age, ability etc. on purchase)

That leaves Fred, Schwein, Di Maria, Sanchez, Lukaku, Bailly, Schneiderlin who have genuinely failed to perform as expected.

So I don't agree with your exaggerated negative analysis of our transfer business.

fergiesarmy1 said:

@Sayros

What Pogba did last season? Take away the penalties and it wasn’t anything to write home about.

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Didn't he also get the highest number of assists and shots on target from midfield in the league in a team struggling to score? If that's a bad season then we need to be doing whatever we can to help him have a good one.

Looking at when he dropped Guendouzi like a small sherry, and set Rashford through.....got me thinking, imagine the reaction if that was the other way around, especially if arsenal had gone on to score. We'd be hearing about it for days, Gary Neville wading in, sky sports replaying it constantly...Ole being asked about it in the post match.

Posters on here would be lapping it up. Pogba was fine last night, he played the role asked of him, kept it simple and made things happen from deep. Did his defensive job too. Nothing wrong with last nights performance as has been the case for most of the season. He's done exactly the role he's been given.

You're not going to get outstanding games from Pogba in this united side when you ask him to give balance to the team from a deep lying role because it doesn't give him freedom to express himself as an individual and also because the team is poor, so him giving balance to a poor team isn't going to be outstanding.

That said had Rashford converted when through and had he's brilliant attempt in the second half been a couple of inches to the left his performance would be lauded. Small margins when your scrutinised like Pogba.

Turnip said:

Didn't he also get the highest number of assists and shots on target from midfield in the league in a team struggling to score? If that's a bad season then we need to be doing whatever we can to help him have a good one.

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Not sure about the shots (only 4 and a half went in though so guessing some weren’t great) but the assists was 9, for some players I’d class that as ok but for the worlds most expensive midfielder I’d want more. Think De Bruyne is already on 8 this season.

Jeppers7 said:

Looking at when he dropped Guendouzi like a small sherry, and set Rashford through.....got me thinking, imagine the reaction if that was the other way around, especially if arsenal had gone on to score. We'd be hearing about it for days, Gary Neville wading in, sky sports replaying it constantly...Ole being asked about it in the post match

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Didn’t he do exactly that In the last minute against Crystal Palace?

fergiesarmy1 said:

Didn’t he do exactly that In the last minute against Crystal Palace?

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Exactly...it happens, nobody makes an issue when it's not Pogba. Only Guendouzi was running accross the pitch into trouble in a very high risk situation he should have given the ball much earlier.

Sayros said:

Well, first of all, isn't it a good thing that he's outperforming his xA or that's only about the forwards? Second, we all have eyes and we can see that a lot of his forward passes that could create danger don't even get to that point because of poor first touch or poor decisions once the ball is picked up. Does xA account for that as well? I'm genuinely asking because I don't really get into the expected stats, I'm not sure how reliable it is as a statistic. Not only that, but it's not just about assists, it's sometimes about the pass before the assists, which Pogba can potentially create a lot of and simply are gone to waste by the forwards. I don't think xA also accounts for those, or the hockey assist as some call it.

I'm just not convinced by this argument that his forwards are making him look better than he is, which is what I think you're trying to suggest by him outperforming his xA.

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xA estimates the likelihood of goal being scored from the quality of the chance being created. It uses data from thousands of previous games to create an average of how many players scored from the same type of pass and situational play. Pogba's xA last year was 5.19 but he registered 9 assists so the goal scorers outperformed the quality of the chances created based on the average likelihood of scoring from those chances.


The grading doesn't depend on what the striker does or doesn't do as it highlights on the video.

For involvement in build up play there is xGChain. I'm not sure of a comprehensive site that offers those stats but I saw a tweet last night that had Radhford with the highest xGChain score for us in that game. Ashley Young had the highest xA at 0.49, the header McT missed from his corner would have gave him that. Pogba's xA was 0.19 from 2 key passes. If you look at the video below you can see why the 'big' chance some are claiming wasn't, Rashford receives the ball fairly far out from goal, one Arsenal defender is well positioned to put pressure on him, close the angle and/or make a challenge, by the time the move fizzles out there is one more defender near the goal line for Arsenal. To reiterate, the quality of chance is graded from a massive database of chances from the same types of passes and situational plays. That said, Rashford should have done better because he failed to even get a proper shot off.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

We will sell Pogba and bring in some new fancy toy who in 6 months will be labelled shite and all other manner of abuse while Pogba will be pulling assists out of his ring piece for Madrid....

There is something fundamentally wrong at the club which is affecting the footballing side of it.

abdo99 said:

Why do you still waste your time on replying to that troll?

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I've said it before, stop replying to trolls and encouraging them. People won't learn.

Jeppers7 said:

Looking at when he dropped Guendouzi like a small sherry, and set Rashford through.....got me thinking, imagine the reaction if that was the other way around, especially if arsenal had gone on to score. We'd be hearing about it for days, Gary Neville wading in, sky sports replaying it constantly...Ole being asked about it in the post match.

Posters on here would be lapping it up. Pogba was fine last night, he played the role asked of him, kept it simple and made things happen from deep. Did his defensive job too. Nothing wrong with last nights performance as has been the case for most of the season. He's done exactly the role he's been given.

You're not going to get outstanding games from Pogba in this united side when you ask him to give balance to the team from a deep lying role because it doesn't give him freedom to express himself as an individual and also because the team is poor, so him giving balance to a poor team isn't going to be outstanding.

That said had Rashford converted when through and had he's brilliant attempt in the second half been a couple of inches to the left his performance would be lauded. Small margins when your scrutinised like Pogba.

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He's scrutinized more heavily than other players because of the price tag and the expectations that come with being recognized as a world class footballer.

He needs to up the intensity. I was thinking last night he's too fecking nice and it was only when he got a little bit aggravated by Arsenal that he went up a level and really started to make things happen. Someone needs to harness that agression and teach him how to turn it on and off because it clearly doesn't fit with who he is but without it he looks uninspiring for us.

Lynty said:

Maguire, Wan Bissaka and James have all started well. Martial has done OK (at the time the fee seemed excessive) but now, where are we getting a striker for £36m with his output and potential. Blind, Mata, Matic, Herrera, Fellani, Lindelof, Rojo, Dalot have performed as expected (due to age, ability etc. on purchase)

That leaves Fred, Schwein, Di Maria, Sanchez, Lukaku, Bailly, Schneiderlin who have genuinely failed to perform as expected.

So I don't agree with your exaggerated negative analysis of our transfer business.

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Pogba has been better and more important than all the players you've listed here.

Jeppers7 said:

Pogba has been better and more important than all the players you've listed here.

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Not so far this season.

Average Redcafe rating of 4.5 this season... Which crazily is actually generous.

finneh said:

Average Redcafe rating of 4.5 this season... Which crazily is actually generous.

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And I haven’t even voted once

fergiesarmy1 said:

And I haven’t even voted once

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Me neither!

VP89 said:

Me neither!

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Balancing out the average are we?

Adam-Utd said:

Not sure why I post on redcafe at all anymore. It just seems a strange place full of hate and agendas these days.

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Yep. Pogba FC being one of the most idiotic agendas of all.

Hammondo said:

Not so far this season.

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Yes we’re halfway through now

Jeppers7 said:

Yes we’re halfway through now

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We can only judge after 19 games?

Adam-Utd said:

Not sure why I post on redcafe at all anymore. It just seems a strange place full of hate and agendas these days.

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Yeah, everyone should just praise Pogba for every thing he does like you and few others do.

Sayros said:

Actually the investment has been used as a beating stick ever since he's come here, so that doesn't make sense.

Also, Juventus and Real Madrid would love for you to actually believe that and let him go.

Was the World cup 8-9 years ago? He seemed to do pretty well there as well, but I guess he's just older now and past it.

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Look at the France squad. Our best striker or best attacking prodigy couldn't make that team. Perhaps it's a team and platform which elevated him rather than him elevating them?

I thought he was good last night. Its a pity we dont have a couple more players of his calibre in the team, it would take the pressure off him. Ive started to notice when he gets the ball he is instantly closed down by opposition, sometimes two at a time. The oppo managers obviously see what most of us dont. He can hurt teams if he has the time and space. We need more players to take the pressure of him.

Pogbas playing to deep for me. We need to get him much higher up the pitch as he will never be box to box type

The criticism seems harsh. He's being asked to play a deeper role because none of the other midfielders have his passing range. Every week it seems an ex-United player is having a go at him with every little thing he does under scrutiny. Gonna be a long season of this and arguing over his best position.