Perhaps, at the very least United would be a lot more competitive than they currently are as Solskjær is, evidently, a much inferior manager. Many people dislike his personality and antics but he would definitely leave a very competitive team for the next manager. When United refused to back him it was weird, because at that point there was no reason to maintain him as manager so it was self sabotage on the club's behalf. Other than that in reality United should have appointed him back when SAF retired instead of Moyes, then I'm pretty sure you guys would be a real strong team by now although not everything it's the fault of the managers but the lack of directionb and structure within the club.
If Mourinho's authority and ideology were given more backing, would we be challenging?
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He got backed to the hilt - broke the world transfer record and signed another player who ranked among the top ten most expensive in history as well. Again - I like Harry Maguire but he'd hardly have transformed us from upper mid-table to title winners. And winning the title had to be Mourinho's goal last year.
Fergie was able to win the CL for us with a squad partially hamstrung by financial constraints: Ronaldo, VDS, Evra and Vidic were all bargains considering what they offered the side. Yet somehow some people laud Mourinho for breaking the world transfer record and being in around 6th or 7th place in his third season here.
I do think we would’ve been successful if we gave him everything he wanted, however, I think his short term reputation kept the club from fully committing to his vision.
If you look at Mourinho players he prefers players 27 and up, real men, who’ll give everything for him. Players like Zlatan, Diarra, Pandev, Matic and Milito for example. While it works in the short term, what happens is the club gets saddled with 30+ year old players on big contracts with no resale value which ironically has happened quite a bit to us anyway.
Although I hold some resentment to some of our players for how they performed under Mourinho, a big part of me thinks that managers who are/were great like Mourinho and LvG should have the ability to get the players performing and not just players that fit their profile.
If you look at Mourinho players he prefers players 27 and up, real men, who’ll give everything for him. Players like Zlatan, Diarra, Pandev, Matic and Milito for example. While it works in the short term, what happens is the club gets saddled with 30+ year old players on big contracts with no resale value which ironically has happened quite a bit to us anyway.
Although I hold some resentment to some of our players for how they performed under Mourinho, a big part of me thinks that managers who are/were great like Mourinho and LvG should have the ability to get the players performing and not just players that fit their profile.
'Bad' is an exaggeration but upon reflection his third season has always been his weakest. It was his worst season in both Chelsea stints, his worst season at Real, and his worst season here. It's undoubtedly a bit of a pattern, is it not?
What does this mean? We let him break the world transfer record. Again - signing Maguire last year would've been nice but wouldn't have transferred us from 6th place to title winners.
Not just Maguire but getting him Perisic and Willian and whoever else. I think he would’ve won something or at least challenged but at what cost?
The team still needed reinforcement and even today I don't think this United team is good to challenge the likes of City and Liverpool. It lacks consistency, a good manager but more importantly it lacks direction.
No. I think we're just going through a down cycle, much like PL teams in UEFA competitions. And our rivals are currently enjoying the best form of their recent history. Our 2nd place finish with Mourinho really was as good as it gets. We just have to wait until Aguero, B Silva, D Silva, De bruyne, Sterling, Salah, Mane, VVD, Firmino, Pep and Klopp all get old or turn to shit or have a falling-out. Once the playing field is a bit more even we can be competitive again with the right signings and playing style and
I think his biggest mistake was to buy Lukaku and think he is a player like Drogba. The injury to Zlatan didn't help him either.
Nah everyone knows it. Chelsea, Real Madrid, Man Utd. Sacked in his 3rd year with very poor results.
I agree with your point but if that was their plan to not back him financially in that summer, why did they extend his contract ? The whole thing makes no sense
It's nothing but revisionist history. The guy was an abject failure. He spent 400m on 11 players and had United closer to relegation than 1st.
It doesn't even matter that he wasn't sacked earlier or any of that irrelevant nonsense. He was a negative manager on and off the pitch who won 2 Mickey Mouse cups, didn't even meet his own targets and never challenged for PL or UCL. Never.
Doesn't matter. He should have resigned rather than carry out a scorched earth policy that deflected all the blame away from himself.
And lose out on that great money once he got sacked ? He would have been mad to do that.
I don't think you're fully grasping what most people are actually saying when they talk about being Jose not being backed, at least in the context of discussions like this. When people like myself suggest he wasn't backed, we mean he wasn't fully trusted to implement his philosophy and shape his side as he saw fit which included being afforded the opportunity to make and correct his or the clubs own costly mistakes.
Pep for example came in and took over a far more capable squad under a well-established infrastructure that was largely tailored towards his own personal philosophy and still struggled with some of his recruitment but his club backed him and allowed him to keep going back to the market until he got it right.
Klopp also came into a club that was in the midst of establishing it's own footballing infrastructure after a few teething issues under their previous manager and he struggled somewhat initially but the club continued to back him despite some questionable performances and recruitment decisions. There was also a lot of unrest before and after his appointment with some of their better players wanting to out but again the club trusted the process. Just look how long it took him to win a trophy.
United on the other hand always appeared panicked and reactive with no clear vision of what they wanted. Under Ole that appears to have changed but there's a lot of people who believe we backed the wrong horse here and while it might work out in the end i.e. after another half-decade of mediocrity and pain, there's this feeling that Mourinho could have come good a lot quicker.
For all the shit he got about being toxic for example, I'd take his open calling out of our board and underperforming players over Ole sitting in a burning house every week trying to tell us "this is fine" but that's just me.
Then he shouldn't be given a pass for being a greedy, calculated bastard. This notion that he should be given the green light to continually make more poor signings just b/c he wasn't sacked is ridiculous. Before the 17/18 season, he literally said it was his team and they were equipped to win the title. Why on earth should he get a blank check based on his failed targets and his track record?
I suspect some guarantees were given during his contract negotiations. He just felt betrayed or something.
The bolded is absurd. No sane business allows an employee to continually make mistakes without repercussions. This "He should have been fully backed" nonsense needs to stop. I know I sound like a broken record but he failed his own targets. His own. Why should he be rewarded for failure?
Short and to the point.
We should have brought Jose in as soon as Fergie left. As it is, he was third choice and psychologically that could have distanced him from the club...I dont think he had the passion for it that he might have done earlier. He turned into Victor Meldrew and the style of play was just dull and boring.
There still seems to be a policy of play it sideways or back. WHY???
What's absurd here is you trying to convince yourself and others that football is an inherently sane business.
By your logic should Pep have faced "repercussions" for replacing club captain, England #1 and firm crowd favourite Joe Hart with Claudio Bravo, only to sign Ederson a year later because he realised he wasn't up to the job? What about his first signing Nolito too? I wonder what he's up to now.
There's also the £50m he pissed away on John Stones who joined a £42 odd million Mangala and £35 odd million Otamendi in defence, only to realise they weren't up to the job mid-way through his second season where he decided to drop £50 odd million on Laporte at the end of the January transfer window. Does he deserve some repercussions on that front?
Then there's the sheer feckton of money he's spent on fullbacks only to be left playing converted midfielders like Delph and now Zinchenko in those positions.
Sure everything seems to be working out for him now but imagine if the board stepped in and said "We don't want to sell Joe Hart because of his well established position at the club" or "Why do you want to sign Ederson when we got you Bravo last year? Repercussions Pep!"
Ultimately player recruitment will always a bit of a lottery simply due to the sheer volume of variables at play. All a club can do is try and mitigate said variables through scouting and what not. It's by no means the be all and end all of judging a manager, especially one as successful as Jose.
He spent 400m on his time here, I doubt there was a manager in the world more backed than him during that time. And he managed to fall out with every single player he bought.
This. We brought him in to win, he failed and ultimately he left the club and the squad in a much worse state than the one he took over. No doubt hes a fantastic coach, his trophy haul speaks for itself, but hes not one for the long term.
No doubt he had to contend with useless Ed and a mediocre squad, but if he had handled it like an adult instead of going into full meltdown, who knows what could have happened?
Totally agree. He was the right man but not at the time he was brought in. When Real beat us with that injustice of a sending off I always saw his antics with SAF on the touchline as a bit of an audition for it. I think he desperately wanted it at that time and it would have been the right time.
But it's not like Mourinho is a total failure, isn't it? He won the Europa League, won the League Cup and get to the final of the FA Cup, as well as finish 2nd in the league. In his 2 full seasons at United, he takes us to the CL every year. Now, how many years until we can get to the CL again?
His signing is not all bad, and the result did show that. And even after sacking him we end up with a defender pair of Maguire (while paying more than the initial asked value) - Lindeloff anyway.
I also don't understand how buying new players is a way of "rewarding" to Mourinho. He wanted new players like Maguire simply because they will improve Manchester United. If anything, not buying new players is a way of "rewarding" to the Glazer and Woodward who can take more money into their own pockets.
I never understand the argument about his spending. Sure he spent $999999999999 but 1/Guardiola spent a similar amount while having much stronger squad 2/He finished 2nd and want to aim for 1st, and for that, $$$ is needed 3/We are the richest club in the world and we can afford Maguire easily 4/I would like the money to be used on improving Manchester United instead of going into the Glazer's pocket.
Regarding the "No sane business allows an employee to continually make mistakes without repercussions" - please take a look at Manchester United and Ed Woodward.
Agreed. I am a big Mourinho fan but I have to admit that his sacking is justified. I wish he would still try hard in his third year but it just didn't happen...
I am still 100% Ole in but Mourinho will always remain a "what could have been" situation for me.
Mouthing was never the right fit dor us. End of story.
Ole's and the club's failures don't change that.
Ole's and the club's failures don't change that.
That's a little unfair. Jose didn't have Scholes, Giggs, Rooney, Rio et al. already at the club. All of those were either recording breaking at the time of purchase, or were developed by the club. If he inherited a group of players like that, including others such as Carrick, the conversation would be completely different.
Agreed but
.Also the club tried to sign Perisic, he rejected us. It's crazy how people don't even want to listen the players themselves and make up their own stories.
Had we backed him we'd be higher up the table today but I don't think it was sustainable from a business point of view.
Sanchez failing was the last straw, absolute debacle on insane wages. So many of his players we were linked with would need replacing in two years, they'd all be on mega wages and no resale value. Too many of his other signings failed. As big as United is, we don't have the money to keep supplying. City do, PSG do, we don't and it would only have us bouncing around 3rd to 6th place.
Sanchez failing was the last straw, absolute debacle on insane wages. So many of his players we were linked with would need replacing in two years, they'd all be on mega wages and no resale value. Too many of his other signings failed. As big as United is, we don't have the money to keep supplying. City do, PSG do, we don't and it would only have us bouncing around 3rd to 6th place.
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Mourinho played Lukaku up top 90 minutes every single game regardless of performance. Matic would be in the midfield with Willian and Perisic wide. He'd spontaneously combust once we didn't replace those with some more £60m signings two seasons later and we'd eventually end up the way it ended up. The fact that he threw his toys out and tanked at both Chelsea and United shows how selfish and unprofessional he is and there is no way we would find long term success under him. Ole is not the answer, but that doesn't make Mourinho the answer either.
I assume you're referring to the quotes he gave to FourFourTwo last year or so about staying for Spalletti? Because it's worth noting he's changed his tune since then and gave an updated version of events to The Athletic the other day:Agreed but
Also the club tried to sign Perisic, he rejected us. It's crazy how people don't even want to listen the players themselves and make up their own stories.
Have you not read quotes from his interview this week? It seems clear that he was desperate to join us and play under Mourinho.Agreed but
Also the club tried to sign Perisic, he rejected us. It's crazy how people don't even want to listen the players themselves and make up their own stories.
“How close was I going there? Very close,” he told The Athletic.
“It was an amazing thing for me when Jose called me.
“It was difficult to say no to him.
“In fact, I really, really wanted to join him and play for United.
“It was a dream of mine to play in all the big leagues. But it didn’t happen.
“It was painful for me. But I don’t want to go into the details.
“I only found out myself the real reasons two years later.”
Are you going to be decent enough to admit that you have been wrong about this on the (very) many occasions you have written about it in the last couple of years?
Decent? He changed his tune, I didn't make him give both interviews. And by the way, he still says that he was very close to join United which still confirms that United tried to sign him. Unless he changes his story again.
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Most managers would have been more successful had they gotten everything they wanted. Regardless, his play style and short termism were always going to cause unrest. He was the wrong appointment and we are in the process of getting rid of some of the players he bought. He set the club backwards imo, left no foundation that could be build upon.
He's been proven right about a lot of things to be fair unfortunately his doubters were right about him being a mouthy git and bringing down the dressing room.
If we'd have signed Maguire last summer we'd have avoided the worst and got top 4 with him i reckon. We may have even been in the mix this season with City under performing.
If we'd have signed Maguire last summer we'd have avoided the worst and got top 4 with him i reckon. We may have even been in the mix this season with City under performing.
No, but you refused to believe that there could be anything to the situation other than the few words that he'd uttered about it before. When people suggested that players often give the impression that it was their decision when a deal falls through in order to save face you would not even accept that that was a possibility. Even in your post above you talk about people being 'crazy' for essentially being able to pick through the evidence and make an informed decision based on everything that we knew about the situation, rather than choosing to just alight on a few words from Perisic at the time which helped support a pro Glazer spending, anti-Mourinho agenda. So yeah, given how many times you have told people they were crazy - when in fact they were right - a bit of humble pie wouldn't go amiss.
What are you on about? People claimed that United vetoed a transfer of Perisic, he said twice now that he was close to join, so unless he is lying the club tried to sign him and didn't veto the move. The only difference is that the first time he said that he was the one who rejected it and now he says that he won't give details on why it didn't happen, it doesn't change anything to the claim that United didn't try to sign him.
I think if we’d signed Maguire last summer and everything panned out the same way with Jose getting sacked and Ole coming in with that unreal run we went on then we’d probably have got a top 4 place, think if Maguire is playing in that team after the PSG win then he’d have been the difference in stopping the defensive shambles that came.
As far as would we have been better backing Jose and him still being here I’d say no because he’d lost the dressing room and we’d have lost Pogba, De Gea, Martial and Rashford would be going into his final year of contract. It didn’t matter how much we’d have backed Jose as anyone coming in was coming into a toxic atmosphere and a revolving door of players.
Remember that Jose signed Bailly and Lindelof in consecutive summers then demanded a centre back because he said the ones he signed weren’t good enough and was constantly throwing players under the bus but nothing ever being his fault, the only players that wanted to come to us by last summer were players only wanting to come for the money so we’d have been left with more overpaid yet underperforming players than we did have.
Jose is one of the most successful managers in history and tactically/coaching wise is way ahead of Ole but his methods and ideology were only going to be successful at United if he’d been the person who took over straight after Sir Alex, at that time we were league champions and still the most attractive club in the country and Jose was heavily motivated after leaving Real.
As far as would we have been better backing Jose and him still being here I’d say no because he’d lost the dressing room and we’d have lost Pogba, De Gea, Martial and Rashford would be going into his final year of contract. It didn’t matter how much we’d have backed Jose as anyone coming in was coming into a toxic atmosphere and a revolving door of players.
Remember that Jose signed Bailly and Lindelof in consecutive summers then demanded a centre back because he said the ones he signed weren’t good enough and was constantly throwing players under the bus but nothing ever being his fault, the only players that wanted to come to us by last summer were players only wanting to come for the money so we’d have been left with more overpaid yet underperforming players than we did have.
Jose is one of the most successful managers in history and tactically/coaching wise is way ahead of Ole but his methods and ideology were only going to be successful at United if he’d been the person who took over straight after Sir Alex, at that time we were league champions and still the most attractive club in the country and Jose was heavily motivated after leaving Real.
You mean like when we came second?
Nope, people said (and pretty much all the press reported at the time) that United wouldn't meet Inter Milan's valuation for Perisic - and therefore didn't really try very hard to get him onboard. You said United tried but Perisic turned us down - the subtext being that he didn't want to play for us and/or Mourinho. That has been completely blown out of the water with his recent interview.
Lets be clear, Jose engineered his own demise at United, as he had done virtually everywhere he's been.
A combination of disagreeing with Woodward over who/how/ and what price for transfers, and realising that with such a mixed bag of players (squad wise) left over from SAF/Moyes/LvG he was ploughing through treacle. Mourinho's philosophy (if that s what it was?) was simple "Attack when you have the ball, defend when you don't" It would never be very pretty football but if carried out as requested by Jose, by players who could fulfil the roles he wanted, success would follow. However it was always short termism because the level of consistency required was too high to be maintained for long and unlike SAF, Mourinho was incapable of rebuilding without destroying what was already there, hence his orchestrated departure after 3 to 4 years.
A combination of disagreeing with Woodward over who/how/ and what price for transfers, and realising that with such a mixed bag of players (squad wise) left over from SAF/Moyes/LvG he was ploughing through treacle. Mourinho's philosophy (if that s what it was?) was simple "Attack when you have the ball, defend when you don't" It would never be very pretty football but if carried out as requested by Jose, by players who could fulfil the roles he wanted, success would follow. However it was always short termism because the level of consistency required was too high to be maintained for long and unlike SAF, Mourinho was incapable of rebuilding without destroying what was already there, hence his orchestrated departure after 3 to 4 years.