If Mourinho's authority and ideology were given more backing, would we be challenging?

UncleBob

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feck me, this is the kind of guy you want in a forum for debate!
Are all opinions equal, is that it ? :lol:

Are you genuinely trying to argue that the managers make all the decisions on playing staff at Chelsea?!
The debate was about Mourinho, wasn't it ? The theme of the thread is that if Mourinho's authority and ideology was backed, like it was at Chelsea, would we be challenging. You're arguing that based on his period at Chelsea he was well versed in getting players he didn't specifically name. So what is it ? Which players ?
 

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No but we finished 2nd. The higher up the table you finish, the more prize money you get, the more sponsorship money it unlocks, the more revenue the following season you get.

Therefore, the board would and owners would prefer a 2nd place finish than a 6th.
You would think so, and that if they put in the proper structure and copied the template used by the most successful and profitable clubs around they would make even more money but here we are with the current sh*tshow.
 

JPRouve

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What was, and is, fact is that what players might say after a transfer has fallen through is not a reliable indicator of exactly what has taken place. And that has been borne out by Perisic's most recent interview. It's clear from that that at the time he didn't even know exactly why the transfer had not taken place, which just adds more fuel to the notion that he was just giving a generic 'I love Inter, I never wanted to leave' type interview in the immediate aftermath.
Which has little to do with our conversation at the time.
 

Rusholme Ruffian

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So he said no Jose and found the reason 2 seasons later. While we didn't make acceptable offer somehow with great difficulty he said no to Jose.
There are loads of reasons why that may have been the case, but what is clear from his interview was that he really wanted to join United and Mourinho, that it was painful that it didn't happen, and that he only really found out exactly why it didn't happen 2 years later. All of that does kind of lead one to conclude that he was coerced into saying - after the deal didn't go through - that he never wanted to join, when actually he did.
 

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The team still needed reinforcement and even today I don't think this United team is good to challenge the likes of City and Liverpool. It lacks consistency, a good manager but more importantly it lacks direction.
But that was his fault - he'd been here for three years! Klopp built a far better Liverpool team with similar resources.
 

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There are loads of reasons why that may have been the case, but what is clear from his interview was that he really wanted to join United and Mourinho, that it was painful that it didn't happen, and that he only really found out exactly why it didn't happen 2 years later. All of that does kind of lead one to conclude that he was coerced into saying - after the deal didn't go through - that he never wanted to join, when actually he did.
All is fine, why did he say no to Jose. If the deal wasnt agreed between clubs then player don't have to make decision.

So when he was at Inter he said Spaletti convinced him to remain at the club so he rejected manutd offer. When he went to Bayern he said with great difficulty he said no to Jose.

Looks like his version is consistent. If he was made false promise which he came to know later its something that doesn't change what he said and the actual argument.
 

Cheesy

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I don't think you're fully grasping what most people are actually saying when they talk about being Jose not being backed, at least in the context of discussions like this. When people like myself suggest he wasn't backed, we mean he wasn't fully trusted to implement his philosophy and shape his side as he saw fit which included being afforded the opportunity to make and correct his or the clubs own costly mistakes.

Pep for example came in and took over a far more capable squad under a well-established infrastructure that was largely tailored towards his own personal philosophy and still struggled with some of his recruitment but his club backed him and allowed him to keep going back to the market until he got it right.

Klopp also came into a club that was in the midst of establishing it's own footballing infrastructure after a few teething issues under their previous manager and he struggled somewhat initially but the club continued to back him despite some questionable performances and recruitment decisions. There was also a lot of unrest before and after his appointment with some of their better players wanting to out but again the club trusted the process. Just look how long it took him to win a trophy.

United on the other hand always appeared panicked and reactive with no clear vision of what they wanted. Under Ole that appears to have changed but there's a lot of people who believe we backed the wrong horse here and while it might work out in the end i.e. after another half-decade of mediocrity and pain, there's this feeling that Mourinho could have come good a lot quicker.

For all the shit he got about being toxic for example, I'd take his open calling out of our board and underperforming players over Ole sitting in a burning house every week trying to tell us "this is fine" but that's just me.
He'd have come good quicker...if what? There are problems behind the scenes, yes, but it doesn't change the fact that Mourinho was very firmly backed to the hilt and was allowed to literally break our world transfer record and make another top 10 world record signing, and yet still found himself essentially getting us into mid-table halfway through his third season here, after his first two seasons had been demonstrably worse than anything he produced as a manager from 2002-2012.

There are wider discussions to be had surrounding the board, but it doesn't change the fact that Mourinho's failings were his own.

There were periods here where Fergie arguably wasn't backed extensively enough...and yet he still built a CL winning side and won 5 out of 7 titles between 06-13.
 

Rusholme Ruffian

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Some folks don't want to admit it. They'd rather just take the easy route and blame the guy that's gone. It's telling in his interviews, he's genuinely sad at what's happening to United, and there's so much dirt on Woodward that's just hidden
Exactly. Plenty of people made being anti-Mourinho their Modus Operandi and are now feeling a bit stupid now they see that things are even worse.

Are all opinions equal, is that it ? :lol:
Well look, we all think our own opinion is right, obviously. But saying that other people's opinions are 'shit' just make you look like a green smilie waving tit.

The debate was about Mourinho, wasn't it ? The theme of the thread is that if Mourinho's authority and ideology was backed, like it was at Chelsea, would we be challenging. You're arguing that based on his period at Chelsea he was well versed in getting players he didn't specifically name. So what is it ? Which players ?
What I'm saying is that Mourinho is/was used to working within a structure where he doesn't have sole say-so on every player signed. It's well known that Chelsea has a transfer board/committee and Roman's right-hand woman plays a massive part also. Who do you think signs all the millions of players that are sent out on loan?

Which has little to do with our conversation at the time.
It's at the very core of the conversation that we had at the time.
 

JPRouve

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It's at the very core of the conversation that we had at the time
No it's not, my very first post told you what the core of the conversation was and when you went with "there is something fishy" I didn't respond and it was the end of it.
 

Rusholme Ruffian

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All is fine, why did he say no to Jose. If the deal wasnt agreed between clubs then player don't have to make decision.

So when he was at Inter he said Spaletti convinced him to remain at the club so he rejected manutd offer. When he went to Bayern he said with great difficulty he said no to Jose.

Looks like his version is consistent. If he was made false promise which he came to know later its something that doesn't change what he said and the actual argument.
Literally the only evidence of an agreement between Inter and United for his transfer exists in those confusing words from Perisic. No newspaper ever reported it - and given how much it would have helped United's PR with their own fans - you would have thought that that is the kind of detail that would have leaked out at the time. The fact that Perisic clearly states how painful it was that the deal didn't go through and that he 'only found out the real reasons two years later' shows that it wasn't a simple case of him turning the deal down. Which is what I (and plenty of others) have always argued about this.
 

Rusholme Ruffian

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No it's not, my very first post told you what the core of the conversation was and when you went with "there is something fishy" I didn't respond and it was the end of it.
I've seen you post about it multiple times - literally this morning (before you were aware of Perisic's recent interview) you said that people were 'crazy' to not believe the version of events that Perisic gave in the immediate aftermath of the deal falling through.
 

roonster09

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Literally the only evidence of an agreement between Inter and United for his transfer exists in those confusing words from Perisic. No newspaper ever reported it - and given how much it would have helped United's PR with their own fans - you would have thought that that is the kind of detail that would have leaked out at the time. The fact that Perisic clearly states how painful it was that the deal didn't go through and that he 'only found out the real reasons two years later' shows that it wasn't a simple case of him turning the deal down. Which is what I (and plenty of others) have always argued about this.

Again what does "it was difficult to say No to Jose" mean? He said in 2 seperate interviews and at 2 different clubs.

He wanted to join but he rejected the chance. For what reason? Only he knows it.
 

KristianMackle

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Yes in short. He wanted hard workers all over the pitch and we may have lost Martial and Pogba but I think this was worth it. He wasn't in over his head, he's managed at some of the biggest clubs; we needed to trust him.

Player power is too strong
 

Rusholme Ruffian

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Again what does "it was difficult to say No to Jose" mean? He said in 2 seperate interviews and at 2 different clubs.

He wanted to join but he rejected the chance. For what reason? Only he knows it.
It's certainly confusing, but it has to be read along with the rest of the quote. On its own it looks like it was all his decision, in the context of the full quote it is obvious that there is a lot more to it than that. Maybe he was told that whatever United offered he wouldn't be sold? I don't know the answer, but I do know that it's clear that it's not the "Perisic didn't want to play for United/Mourinho" situation that it was represented as by certain people on this forum.
 

roonster09

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It's certainly confusing, but it has to be read along with the rest of the quote. On its own it looks like it was all his decision, in the context of the full quote it is obvious that there is a lot more to it than that. Maybe he was told that whatever United offered he wouldn't be sold? I don't know the answer, but I do know that it's clear that it's not the "Perisic didn't want to play for United/Mourinho" situation that it was represented as by certain people on this forum.
I don't know how it's clear when the player himself said he rejected ManUtd/Jose in 2 different interviews. Only thing we don't know is what was the reason to reject ManUtd/Jose. Guess we have to wait for his book then.
 

UncleBob

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Well look, we all think our own opinion is right, obviously. But saying that other people's opinions are 'shit' just make you look like a green smilie waving tit.
Hey, if that's your opinion.
The value of the opinion depends on what it's based on. Your opinion is based on your own imagination because it fits a larger picture that you so badly want to believe. It holds no value.

What I'm saying is that Mourinho is/was used to working within a structure where he doesn't have sole say-so on every player signed. It's well known that Chelsea has a transfer board/committee and Roman's right-hand woman plays a massive part also. Who do you think signs all the millions of players that are sent out on loan?
Which part of being specific didn't you grasp ?

Your opinion is that Fred and Mkhi aren't typical Mourinho signings, but you've failed to explain why, i've pointed out several times why both signings made sense under Mourinho and that there's no piece of credible information that even hints in the direction that he didn't want them at the club. Your only angle is ignoring all other available information out there and focusing on that both Mkhi and Fred had extensive periods where they were out of the team, which is hardly uncommon in the world of football. None of the other two earlier managers made a single hint either about the club pursuing players that they didn't specifically ask for either...You then go on about how he's, from his days at Chelsea and Real Madrid well versed with players brought in that he didn't specifically choose himself, but you can't name a single one in a thread that specifically talks about how he should've been backed like he was at Chelsea. You're also ignoring everything that actually unfolded at Real Madrid and the power Mourinho was given by Perez...

I mean, an obvious question would also be, IF he's well versed then why are the signings of Mkhi and Fred even worth mentioning ?
 

Rusholme Ruffian

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I don't know how it's clear when the player himself said he rejected ManUtd/Jose in 2 different interviews. Only thing we don't know is what was the reason to reject ManUtd/Jose. Guess we have to wait for his book then.
It's clear because he has clearly stated that he only discovered the reasons why the deal fell through 2 years after it happened! If it had just been about him turning United/Jose down then he would know the reasons wouldn't he? He wouldn't have to 'find them out' after 2 years!
 

roonster09

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It's clear because he has clearly stated that he only discovered the reasons why the deal fell through 2 years after it happened! If it had just been about him turning United/Jose down then he would know the reasons wouldn't he? He wouldn't have to 'find them out' after 2 years!
So if he didn't know the reason, why did he say no to Jose with great difficulty? Can we at least agree that he said No to Jose/ManUtd?
 

Rusholme Ruffian

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Hey, if that's your opinion.
The value of the opinion depends on what it's based on. Your opinion is based on your own imagination because it fits a larger picture that you so badly want to believe. It holds no value.
well unless you have access to the inner workings of Mourinho's head then so is yours mate!

Which part of being specific didn't you grasp ?

Your opinion is that Fred and Mkhi aren't typical Mourinho signings, but you've failed to explain why, i've pointed out several times why both signings made sense under Mourinho and that there's no piece of credible information that even hints in the direction that he didn't want them at the club. Your only angle is ignoring all other available information out there and focusing on that both Mkhi and Fred had extensive periods where they were out of the team, which is hardly uncommon in the world of football. None of the other two earlier managers made a single hint either about the club pursuing players that they didn't specifically ask for either...You then go on about how he's, from his days at Chelsea and Real Madrid well versed with players brought in that he didn't specifically choose himself, but you can't name a single one in a thread that specifically talks about how he should've been backed like he was at Chelsea. You're also ignoring everything that actually unfolded at Real Madrid and the power Mourinho was given by Perez...

I mean, an obvious question would also be, IF he's well versed then why are the signings of Mkhi and Fred even worth mentioning ?
My point was that Mourinho is used to working in clubs where there are multiple people involved in transfers, so it wouldn't necessarily be something that he'd go apeshit about - as you implied he would. I think his way is much more to sideline the player, use them sparingly and then ship them out at the first opportunity (which is what happened with Mkhi and had started to happen with Fred). We disagree, that's fine - deal with it!
 

Rusholme Ruffian

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So if he didn't know the reason, why did he say no to Jose with great difficulty? Can we at least agree that he said No to Jose/ManUtd?
Look, his words have always been there on the record. He has said that he said no to United/Mourinho. He has also made it very clear that doing so was very painful and, most importantly, that he didn't fully understand why the transfer fell through until 2 years later. There is a clear disparity between what he said at the time, and what was going on in the background. I've already given you an example of why that might have been: Maybe he was told that whatever United offered he wouldn't be sold and therefore said no to Utd - maybe this was a negotiating strategy by Inter to make United increase their bid, and maybe United called their bluff thinking that Inter would drop their demands nearer to the deadline. maybe neither side blinked and therefore the transfer didn't happen? Hey, I'm just freestyling here as you seem intent on pushing me to come up with an explanation. As I've already said though it's clear that there is much more to this than meets the eye.
 

Gehrman

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Yes in short. He wanted hard workers all over the pitch and we may have lost Martial and Pogba but I think this was worth it. He wasn't in over his head, he's managed at some of the biggest clubs; we needed to trust him.

Player power is too strong
And he took his champions at Chelsea to relegation form in his 3rd season. What was his excuse there?
 

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It's certainly confusing, but it has to be read along with the rest of the quote. On its own it looks like it was all his decision, in the context of the full quote it is obvious that there is a lot more to it than that. Maybe he was told that whatever United offered he wouldn't be sold? I don't know the answer, but I do know that it's clear that it's not the "Perisic didn't want to play for United/Mourinho" situation that it was represented as by certain people on this forum.
From his following statement it sounds like he really did want to come to United but his mind was changed by Spalletti. What he found out 2 years later I have no idea.


In the summer of 2017, José Mourinho was in need of an ambidextrous winger to cross the ball to Lukaku, and was thus very keen on bringing Perišić to Old Trafford.

United made an offer, but Perišić stayed put. In a recent interview with FourFourTwo magaizne, he explained the Luciano Spalletti was a key factor in his decision to remain with Inter.




“It’s true that an offer from Manchester United was on the table – I was really close to leaving Inter,” Perišić said.

“When Luciano Spalletti arrived [in June 2017], he showed tremendous desire to keep me in the team and made it clear he didn’t want to lose me. That was very encouraging, and I haven’t regretted my decision to stay at Inter. In football, small details in these situations are key.

“Admiration from a coach like Mourinho is definitely something that flattered me. It’s confirmation of hard work and good performances.

“When you’re praised by a guy like Mourinho – the manager of a huge club like Man United – it’s difficult not to think about such an offer. I’m glad he has a high opinion of me. These things motivate me to work and train hard, to achieve the best performances.”
 

432JuanMata

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And he took his champions at Chelsea to relegation form in his 3rd season. What was his excuse there?
Ole is doing that for us now, he might of got sacked and had Chelsea down there but he won the league the season before
 

Gehrman

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Ole is doing that for us now, he might of got sacked and had Chelsea down there but he won the league the season before
For sure. No one can argue that he isn't one of the most successful managers of all time. But he still royally fecked up in his 3rd season there.

Only being able to be a good manager for 2 seasons at a club is not quality.
 

UncleBob

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well unless you have access to the inner workings of Mourinho's head then so is yours mate!
Cool story bro.
I've written what it's based on.

My point was that Mourinho is used to working in clubs where there are multiple people involved in transfers, so it wouldn't necessarily be something that he'd go apeshit about - as you implied he would. I think his way is much more to sideline the player, use them sparingly and then ship them out at the first opportunity (which is what happened with Mkhi and had started to happen with Fred). We disagree, that's fine - deal with it!
It's not a point, it's a claim, a claim you've failed to back up. It's well known that Mourinho needs to be in charge of which players the club goes after, his power struggle with Valdano, which Mourinho won, was all about having autonomy at the club. Mkhi arrived in 2016, was involved in 41 apperances in his first season, 21 in his second season before being shipped out to Arsenal. 62 apperances in 1,5 season, total of 3385 mins, sure as hell sound like someone that was sidelined.

:wenger::wenger:
 

Rusholme Ruffian

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Cool story bro.
I've written what it's based on.



It's not a point, it's a claim, a claim you've failed to back up. It's well known that Mourinho needs to be in charge of which players the club goes after, his power struggle with Valdano, which Mourinho won, was all about having autonomy at the club. Mkhi arrived in 2016, was involved in 41 apperances in his first season, 21 in his second season before being shipped out to Arsenal. 62 apperances in 1,5 season, total of 3385 mins, sure as hell sound like someone that was sidelined.

:wenger::wenger:
Do you not think that some of the reasons why Mourinho got so disillusioned with United was because he wasn't being given the autonomy that he wanted? Just a thought...:wenger::wenger::wenger:
 

Jibbs

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Had we signed Perisic in 2017 and Alderwiereld / Maguire in 2018, as Mourinho wished, we would have done a lot better and may as well be playing in Champions League right now.
 

Champagne Football

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Mourinho is the type of manager who panic buys with astronomical amounts of cash to try to save his reputation, instead of waiting 1 year for a super talented kid to develop, like Fergie always did or Ole is doing. Jose will always put No. 1 before long term health of a club. And he'll always blame everyone but himself when things don't work out.

Jose miraculously managed to clear most of the garbage left by Van Gaal - Schweinsteiger, Memphis, Schneiderlin... . Mata and Fellaini somehow survived but should have gone too.

But Jose proved he's yesterday's man with terrible signings himself. The 250 million spent on Fred, Matic, Mkhitaryan, Sanchez, Bailly, Pogba was a terrible waste of money. Reckless short-termism from a guy who wants to win a trophy today whatever the cost, without any regard for tomorrow.

Let's always remember that Jose was desperate for another 300 million to sign a few more players with only 1 good year left in them - William, Peresic, Jerome Boateng, Nainngolan etc
 

432JuanMata

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For sure. No one can argue that he isn't one of the most successful managers of all time. But he still royally fecked up in his 3rd season there.

Only being able to be a good manager for 2 seasons at a club is not quality.
I agree but the sad thing is he got us season 2nd had his 3rd season wobble so we sacked him yet we are still going backwards :(
 

Buster15

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But that was his fault - he'd been here for three years! Klopp built a far better Liverpool team with similar resources.
Klopp inherited a far better squad from Brendan Rodgers. They had almost won the PL.
Jose inherited a mess of a squad.
However, it didn't work out so we will never know.
 

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No attacking football & no developing of young players. Moving on from Mourinho is the right choice. His authority & ideology won’t suit us.
 

Son

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Had we signed Perisic in 2017 and Alderwiereld / Maguire in 2018, as Mourinho wished, we would have done a lot better and may as well be playing in Champions League right now.
This.
No attacking football & no developing of young players. Moving on from Mourinho is the right choice. His authority & ideology won’t suit us.
Mourinho gave young players minutes though. Rashford was best under his tutoring. McTomminay came through and he gave Gomez his debut etc...

Of all the things u can throw at Mourinho you can’t say he stifled youth with us. They weren’t ready at the time so he couldn’t click his fingers and magically put them in the first 11.

Mourinho understands football and how to win far more than anyone still at our club hence why there was less of a shot in the dark every game.

Periera at RW, Pogba at DM and Lingard playing every game is worse than anything Mourinho ever did at our club. Our current tactics and team selections are absolutely diabolical at times.
 

ABTEK

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For short term, we might be. But then again his antics will kick in cycles every other year.
 

sammsky1

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Imagine if we'd given him Pep style money.

We'd have Perisic and Willian on the wings, and probably 2x50m 30-32 year old full backs.

His style of footy had run out of gas.
Who are both doing very well playing and influencing high level Champions League matches and have years ahead of them.

All while we can choose between Mata, Lingard, James, Greenwood and Chong in the Europa League, playing rubbish football to boot.

What’s your point?
 

roonster09

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Klopp inherited a far better squad from Brendan Rodgers. They had almost won the PL.
Jose inherited a mess of a squad.
However, it didn't work out so we will never know.
So Klopp inherited far better sqaud but still he replaced almost everyone, not just in first 11 but from the sqaud itself.

IIRC only Milner, Henderson, Origi and Firmino are from Rodgers time. Their squad was a mess, Klopp did superb job in changing it without spending much.
 

Mark Pawelek

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Who are both doing very well playing Champions League football and have years ahead of them.

All while we can choose between Mata, Lingard, James, Greenwood and Chong in the Europa League, playing rubbish football to boot.

What’s your point?
With Mourinho, United would still be playing rubbish football, winning nothing, but having no future.

My issue with Mourinho is his signings; and the price he paid for players he hardly ever played! This year, the performance of Mourinho signings for United is noticeably worse than LVG, Fergie, or Ole signings. [performance measured as average match rating given by MEN]. Yet the Mourinho signings were much more expensive.
 

Mark Pawelek

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Pure conjecture based on zero evidence so not even worth the words you typed.
Evidence:

Exhibit 1. My issue with Mourinho is his signings; and the price he paid for players he hardly ever played!

Exhibit 2. This year, the performance of Mourinho signings for United is noticeably worse than LVG, Fergie, or Ole signings. [performance measured as average match rating given by MEN]. Yet the Mourinho signings were much more expensive.
 

Mark Pawelek

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Pure conjecture based on zero evidence so not even worth the words you typed.
Exhibit 2 (This year, the performance of Mourinho signings for United is noticeably worse than LVG, Fergie, or Ole signings. [performance measured as average match rating given by MEN]. Yet the Mourinho signings were much more expensive) in detail:

Manager: MEN rating (average this season)
SAF ...... 5.7
Moyes ... 5.0
LvG ....... 5.9
Mourinho 5.0
Ole ........ 6.2
Home grown 5.2


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