The Oasis Draft - R1: Pat_Mustard vs Himannvictus

With players at their career peak, who would win?


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Physiocrat

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Pat_Mustard



Himannvictus



Pat_Mustard

Formation: Zona Mista
Tactical Summary: Moderately deep defensive line with a predominantly counter-attacking style.

I'm fecking knackered so I'm just going to spew out a few bullet points...

- An all-time great ball-playing CB (with 2 assists in a World Cup final to his name) Bobby Moore in the sweeper role, flanked by two quick and physically powerful foils to mitigate against his relative weaknesses.

- Thuram, Facchetti and Bruno Conti are all arguably the historical gold standards in those niche RB/RCB, LWB and one-man flank RW roles in the Zona Mista.

- Hierro starts at DM and Souness plays as our B2B midfielder, but they'll interchange at times to take advantage of Hierro's stupendous goal threat from midfield (21 league goals in 1991-92, and 55 goals in 143 games overall during his three-year goalscoring peak).

- Baggio will be in his element as our creative fulcrum, and has played some of his best football in similar setups for Juve.

- Keegan and Charles are both perennially underrated in draft circles but they should form a complementary and dangerous partnership. Keegan's career-best form came playing off big, powerhouse CFs like Toshack and Hrubesch, with Charles sharing their strengths but belonging to an altogether higher tier. Not that Baresi and Forster were in any way feeble either physically or in the air, but Charles does enjoy a substantial size advantage over them that should cause problems from crosses in particular.

Himannvictus

Basic Layout: 4-2-3-1 with mostly hard-working players and an emphasis on quick-tempo style in offense.

In goal the team features Jürgen Croy, who is something of an unsung hero in the world of goalkeepers. Chances are that most casual football watcher have probably never heard of him, but had he born on the other side of the Wall he could have very well been playing in the 1974 World Cup Final instead of Sepp Maier — he was that good. For East Germany, Croy was elected East German Footballer of the Year three times, in 1972, '76 and '78, despite playing in the goalkeeper position. An outstanding shot-stopper capable of amazing reflexes on his line, he had an excellent command of his penalty area, first-rate ball-handling skills, and above-average consistency, this quality made Croy one of the best goalkeepers of his time and arguably one of the best ever. East and West German media alike often placed him on an equal footing with his contemporaries Sepp Maier and Dino Zoff, two of the game's all-time legends.

Starting out in defense, the combination of Franco Baresi and Karlheinz Förster is arguably the most robust in this draft.
What more can be said about a man who made defending an absolute joy to watch. Such a reader of the game, brilliant technique, his decision making was absolutely brilliant, he knew when to slow the game down and play it out from the back or when he just needed to hit it into Row Z, you could argue Franco was no nonsense but a defender with flair at the same time, as I've said he based every decision on it's own merits and knew what was best to do in every scenario. Brave as anything as well, would stick his head where most would struggle to put their boot. Despite the '94 World Cup Final being an absolute dire affair in the attacking third, any fan of the true art of defending would say that Franco's remarkable MOM performance at the ripe old age of 34, snuffing out Romario and every other Brazilian attacker that day was sheer genius. Also as well as being a brilliant defender he was also fantastic at bringing the ball out from the back and often finished off his own moves he started from defence, with his amazing bursts of acceleration, technique and brilliant positioning at both ends of the field.
And the latter is considered to be one of the greatest stoppers of all time, as well as a brilliant man-marker, and performed at practically every stage, winning German Defender of the Year for 5 consecutive seasons (a record for central defenders over the last 40 years)...



As well as excelling for Die Mannschaft!
UEFA European Championship Team of the Tournament: 1980, 1984

For Anatoliy Demyanenko at the leftback position, and what he brings to the team, we will quote Valeriy Lobanovskyi, the great USSR and Dynamo Kiev manager:
Demyanenko impressed everyone with his attitude in training. To maximise his impressive athleticism we needed to give him as much space as possible, so we’ve put him at left back, where he began to play with freedom that was unseen before in Soviet football. He was an instant upgrade on Matvienko, who played there before him — he matched him defensively but, at the same time, he significantly improved our attack. He covered a 60-70 meters long zone on the left and after the game he looked like this hellish work actually makes him happy
And at rightback, we have the ever-dependable Phil Neal, who is still one of the most decorated players in English football history and will be remembered as the most consistent rightback Liverpool has ever had on its books. He served the club for over ten years and won an incredible four European Cup titles. At the peak of his powers, Neal boasted great positional sense and drew errors from the opposition player, forcing them wider before dispossessing them cleanly.

Next on the agenda is one of the best central midfielders in any pool, particularly in terms of proven historical stature, József Bozsik — widely considered to be among the greatest central midfielders in history, he was the central heartbeat and midfield general of the legendary Mighty Magyars. As the best half-back in the world at his pomp, Bozsik was a visionary whose legacy was carried on by the likes of Masopust and Falcão in subsequent years — and renowned for his flawless technique, positioning, flair, tactical nous, passing accuracy and creativity — as well as his calm demeanor and organisational skills as a leader.
“Kocsis often received passes from László ‘Pupos’ Budai, who was very fast. Nándor Hidegkuti created what was called a middle style, hanging back with the defenders to receive passes from József ‘Cucu’ Bozsik, who was the team’s chief, its intellectual leader. Whoever understood football could understand Bozsik’s importance. Like Puskás, he made impossible situations possible.
And along side is the devilish Billy Bremner, the fiery midfield dynamo whose tireless energy spurred on Leeds United during their most successful years, under the management of Don Revie. His priceless precision passing, stamina and skill led him to become a Leeds United legend and one of the game's greatest midfielders.
No manager could wish for a greater leader or a greater player. If I was in the trenches at the front line, the man I would want on my right side is Billy Bremner — Don Revie
At the central attacking-midfielder/forward position is the legendary László Kubala, who was often reckoned in the company of Ferenc Puskás or Di Stéfano in his playing days, but sadly never got the chance to evidence his considerable talent for Hungary. Before Lionel Messi, Ronaldinho and Johan Cruyff, there was Kubala. The Hungarian's time at Barcelona came well before the days of even color television, but his genius at the club persists strongly to this day, marked most clearly by the towering bronze statue of him that stands in the grounds of the Camp Nou.
When he [Kubala] was on the pitch we had the feeling that we couldn’t lose. He dominated the game and dominated the ball, created an atmosphere of optimism, a winner’s mentality… he transformed football — Gustau Biosca
At the left attacker position is Rob Rensenbrink (aka Slangenmens, Dutch for Snake Man), who had a bit of everything in his game. An intelligent player with a fantastic touch and flexibility of a seasoned contorsionist, he was tall enough to be used as a traditional center-forward yet possessed a great dribbling technique that meant he could also play out wide, where he was more than capable of leaving 2 or 3 defenders bamboozled in his wake. To add, his movement off the ball was excellent, often baffling the opposition with some of his runs and ability to find space.

On the opposite flank is Luís Figo, probably the greatest winger in the world during the last three decades. He was a playmaking right-winger with remarkable dribbling and the ability to make pinpoint passing and imagination to create assists. Gifted with an extraordinary technical ability, aided to his good physical shape and strong charisma, enormous ambition and total dedication to his job, led him to become one of his generation's leading lights, with a fantastic career full of conquests.

And up front is the peerless Gerd Müller, the most lethal and decisive striker in football history. As well as a wonderful footballer.



Quoted from Cruyff's autobiography My Turn: A Life of Total Football

Key talking points
  • Quality all over the pitch with no real weak links.
  • Hard workers along the spine and on the flanks as well.
  • Attacking trio of Rensenbrink, Kubala and Müller scored a total of ~1350 goals.
  • At first glance, we will concede that the opposition has better fullbacks but in our opinion our offense is more potent and the central defensive duo more astute.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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On team Pat, 3 things I'd probably like to hear from the manager.

1. Would it be better if Baggio and Keegan are swapped?
2. I'd personally have taken Van Hanegem ahead of Souness. Great cover for Facchetti too.
3. Moore as the RCB hurts my eyes a little although in the defensive phase it's perfectly fine.. Most of his playmaking came from the left side of the pitch. Quite wide out sometimes from what I have seen

The opposition has fairly obvious fits, so not many questions for them.

I know which side I'll probably vote for. But will wait for some arguments to see if that changes anything.
 

Physiocrat

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This is tight, again. Muller will have more joy than Charles here but I can't help thing that Bozsik vs Baggio is not ideal for Himannvictus. From what I have seen Bozsik was not the most mobile player so being up against Baggio could cause quite a few problems. You could say the same for Kubala vs Hierro but I haven't seen too much of the former and the latter is better defensively than Bozsik.
 

Invictus

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This is tight, again. Muller will have more joy than Charles here but I can't help thing that Bozsik vs Baggio is not ideal for Himannvictus. From what I have seen Bozsik was not the most mobile player so being up against Baggio could cause quite a few problems. You could say the same for Kubala vs Hierro but I haven't seen too much of the former and the latter is better defensively than Bozsik.
To be fair, you could say that about most non-grafters in midfielders. Reckon a lot of really good central midfielders who weren't über-athletes but excelled in 2 man-setups (like Bozsik, or perhaps Falcão/Suárez) are short-changed in drafts from that standpoint. Baggio will definitely be able to influence the game because of his evasiveness, but the combination of Bremner (a superlative terrier) and Bozsik (who was frequently a one-man pivot for Hungary as Zakariás dropped alongside Lantos and had sharply-tuned positional foresight) should be able to spoil a fair chunk of Baggio's plans by constantly trying to out-think him and limiting space. Plus, Kubala was an all-round footballer noted for his work rate, energy and tenacity — and while he won't individually mark Baggio, the overall structure between the three of them should be fairly secure.

Anyway, time to shine the light on one of the best creators on the pitch — Facchetti was obviously fantastic but his runs (some of them will be risky if he has to fulfill his wingback remit here) might leave spatial lapses for Figo to exploit (can't ask for anyone better to lay it on a platter from crosses and general play). The stat is a bit dated but only Messi leads him in La Liga for assists:
 

Physiocrat

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To be fair, you could say that about most non-grafters in midfielders. Reckon a lot of really good central midfielders who weren't über-athletes but excelled in 2 man-setups (like Bozsik, or perhaps Falcão/Suárez) are short-changed in drafts from that standpoint. Baggio will definitely be able to influence the game, but the combination of Bremner (a superlative terrier) and Bozsik (who was frequently a one-man pivot for Hungary as Zakariás dropped alongside Lantos and had sharply-tuned positional foresight) should be able to spoil some of Baggio's plans. Plus, Kubala was an all-round footballer noted for his work rate, energy and tenacity — and while he won't individually mark Baggio, the overall structure between the three of them should be fairly secure.
From what I have seen Suarez and Falcao were much more mobile than Bozsik (I will say though the only full game was the one against England). Bremner helps of course, but with Pat playing on the counter Bremner could well be that bit far forward as will Kubala.

Anyway, time to shine the light on one of the best creators on the pitch — Facchetti was obviously fantastic but his runs (some of them will be risky if he has to fulfill his wingback remit here) might leave some lapses for Figo to exploit (can't ask for anyone better to lay it on a platter from crosses and general play). The stat is a bit dated but only Messi leads him in La Liga for assists:
I didn't know Figo had that many assists. Messi's numbers by now must astronomical
 

Invictus

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From what I have seen Suarez and Falcao were much more mobile than Bozsik (I will say though the only full game was the one against England). Bremner helps of course, but with Pat playing on the counter Bremner could well be that bit far forward as will Kubala.
Disagree, mate. Marginally, maybe so. But much more is an overstatement, IMO, because it's not exactly speed-racer vs. a sitting duck between Suárez or Bozsik (who, to re-emphasize, a vast spatial remit at half-back and was known for being positionally astute).

Though now that Suárez has been mentioned...
Luis Suárez, the playmaker in Helenio Herrera’s famous Internazionale side from the early to mid-1950s, and later a player for Barcelona, said that “no one had seen anyone curl a ball over a wall before … he was an extraordinary player who brought to Spain a series of innovative improvements and perfections. He united physical power and exceptional technique.” He supposedly only ever missed one penalty, too.

Spectators came in their thousands to watch the dynamic playmaker, for his game was quite so diverse and inspiring. Physically he was bullish, aggressive and muscular. He had trained as a boxer in his younger years and his body reflected that. Sid Lowe, in his book Fear and Loathing in La Liga describes him as “Hulk-like” with “rippling muscles”.

In one instance, Lowe describes how his shirt was ripped from his body by defenders from Brazilian side Botafogo physically unable to stop him. He played on, and scored, bare-chested. Real Madrid legend Alfredo Di Stéfano described him as a “strong man” and that you “couldn’t knock him over with a cannonball”. But he was also agile, able to beat most defenders for speed, and could strike the ball fiercely with his thick, strong thighs. He was not a complete bully, however; he had a care for aesthetics and the beautiful side of the game.

Perhaps most importantly, Kuksi was a team-player. He was not selfish or egotistical. He was a leader and generated such confidence in his team-mates that they felt they could not lose when he played. He knew he was the best and he was treated, and paid, as such.
https://thesefootballtimes.co/2017/...-how-laszlo-kubala-became-a-barcelona-legend/

Another cool thread from Barcelona's Reddit sub: https://www.reddit.com/r/Barca/comments/7bded4/barça_legends_thread_lászló_kubala/
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Cheers for setting it up @Physiocrat .

On team Pat, 3 things I'd probably like to hear from the manager.

1. Would it be better if Baggio and Keegan are swapped?
2. I'd personally have taken Van Hanegem ahead of Souness. Great cover for Facchetti too.
3. Moore as the RCB hurts my eyes a little although in the defensive phase it's perfectly fine.. Most of his playmaking came from the left side of the pitch. Quite wide out sometimes from what I have seen

The opposition has fairly obvious fits, so not many questions for them.

I know which side I'll probably vote for. But will wait for some arguments to see if that changes anything.
Bear with me mate as this is likely to be long and meandering as feck, but:

1) I wanted Baggio behind the strikers as soon as I committed to building the Zona Mista. Much of his career-best form at club level came in that role. Here he is producing a creative masterclass for Juve against a strong Parma team (finished third in Serie A that year, and boasted the likes of Zola and Asprilla), playing behind Ravanelli and Vialli:


Even when he played with Andreas Moller (generally seen as a pure AM) behind Vialli, Baggio was the deeper of the two as often as not, often dropping really deep to support the teams defensive shape and launch attacks. I made this video of him a few days ago:


Baggio was comfortable in both the playmaker or second striker roles, but IMO Keegan was a pure second striker and I'd be reluctant to play him in the No. 10 role here where playmaking ability is so important. Some good posts on Keegan from previous drafts:

Yeah, but there's a reason for it.

And, no, I don't mean the Liverpool connection. That plays its part - similar to how T-shirt (a player many would rate higher than Keegan, in spite of his conspicuous lack of Ballons) is likely to be received - but it's not the main reason.

You can't sell him as anything but what he was, i.e. a second striker. Same with T-shirt, same with another unpicked Ballon winner from your own neck of the woods *, same with - dare I say it - Cantona (although he is obviously scan voter sexy as few others, so there's that).

Second strikers simply haven't been popular in drafts for as long as I've played 'em on here. At most you could field someone like Mazzola or [UNPICKED - I think], i.e. what you could sell as "direct" No 10s or AMs (players who were, historically, inside forwards) - but specialist second strikers (not playmakers as such) with a more "primary" striker as an actual partner? Not so much. Certainly not in a "final worthy" sense.

But I predict a change. The 4-2-3-1 is old news. People will now go for some kind of feckin' wingbackery - or, actually, for the ol' 4-4-2.

I'll do it myself. And if there's acceptance for 4-4-2 variations - well, there you are. The specialist second strikers will be in demand again.

* Roughly, very roughly.
Plus Keegan (a pure SS at his finest) adds lots of physicality and pressure up front that is usually associated with more target-man-ish strikers a-la Drogba
Too bad that I never finished all those compilations about Keegan (and Kaltz when they played together), my opinion of him changed quite a lot. Looks way less impressive in the goal/skills highlights than in actual games, endless stamina and leadership qualities, the way he drives the whole team forward! Good thing that he had a successful spell at Hamburg and I wasn't forced to watch too much of Liverpool :lol:
The Zona Mista seems like one of the rare formations that naturally favours a second striker in the Keegan mould, with his sheer energy, willingness to run the channels and compete for every ball, over more technical types who might be prone to flitting in and out of games. As Harms said, he's one of those players where you really need to watch the full 90 minutes to grasp quite how much he influenced the match, but as you're one of the few who I think actually watches these videos here's an all-touches video I made of him from the 1974 FA Cup final:

 

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Loved the video of Keegan @Pat_Mustard. So influential on the team as a whole with his relentless hustle and bustle and ballsy directness on the ball. Guys like him are invaluable in unsettling and disrupting otherwise organised defences.
 

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Baggio and Keegan are spot on in that setup. More curious about how Charles fits with two but the duo is a cracking one for this setup.

On the other side, not really sold on Kubala being an ideal candidate for the #10 role in that team. No question on his stature or ability but he's usually seen more of an inside forward who'd be better suited for a wing forward role who can bring in his great dribbling, close control, acceleration and shooting into the picture. I know some of the players of that generation get remembered as superbeings so I am sure there would be some anecdote citing his passing skills but especially with a striker like Muller you'd prefer someone uber-creative first and foremost putting it on a plate for the German, and that's something that team very much needs in my opinion.

Leaning towards Pat as his defense is absolutely top class, high amount of energy and steel in midfield with Baggio in a role that would make him truly shine and probably the decider in this match up.
 

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Wow, this is a fantastic match-up. I'm surprised that Baresi was not in your top-2 choices for a captaincy though.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
On team Pat, 3 things I'd probably like to hear from the manager.

1. Would it be better if Baggio and Keegan are swapped?
2. I'd personally have taken Van Hanegem ahead of Souness. Great cover for Facchetti too.
3. Moore as the RCB hurts my eyes a little although in the defensive phase it's perfectly fine.. Most of his playmaking came from the left side of the pitch. Quite wide out sometimes from what I have seen

The opposition has fairly obvious fits, so not many questions for them.

I know which side I'll probably vote for. But will wait for some arguments to see if that changes anything.
Got distracted as a friend called around and I'm drunk now but Part 2:

2) The van Hanegem pick was a massive pain in the arse tbh. Too good to miss out on the draft entirely and I rate him exceptionally highly, but I'd already settled on the starting XI (and started that fecking Keegan video), so I was reluctant to change things. I could have played van Hanegem as No. 10 and Baggio as SS, but I'd reserved that as the nuclear option if I'd drawn @Moby 's half-decent Rijkaard/Matthaus midfield. Straight swap for Souness was also completely viable as you say, but it impinged just slightly more on Baggio as the creative fulcrum, and alongside the relatively one-paced Hierro, I preferred Souness. Van Hanegem was a proper B2B player IMO, albeit no speed demon, but he's got slated before in my teams for a bullshit perceived lack of ground coverage, so I went for the classical B2B option instead.

3) I understand the jarring aspect on the team sheet but bear in mind he's a sweeper here - he'll be covering both sides equally behind Thuram and Campbell. He's not really on a specific side in that regard.
 

Synco

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On the other side, not really sold on Kubala being an ideal candidate for the #10 role in that team. No question on his stature or ability but he's usually seen more of an inside forward who'd be better suited for a wing forward role who can bring in his great dribbling, close control, acceleration and shooting into the picture.I know some of the players of that generation get remembered as superbeings so I am sure there would be some anecdote citing his passing skills but especially with a striker like Muller you'd prefer someone uber-creative first and foremost putting it on a plate for the German, and that's something that team very much needs in my opinion.
I think a good route to involve Müller in this team are attacks over the wings. From what I've seen from Kubala*, I think he can play that AM part (feeding the wingers, linking up with Müller, getting a few shots off himself), but not as naturally and consistently as Baggio on the other side.

* an instance of him playing centrally is a game against HSV, where he had some curious midfield playmaking role, but deeper than here iirc. He looked surprisingly at home there in many ways, and his passing was ambitious, but often missing that last bit of precision.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
This is tight, again. Muller will have more joy than Charles here but I can't help thing that Bozsik vs Baggio is not ideal for Himannvictus. From what I have seen Bozsik was not the most mobile player so being up against Baggio could cause quite a few problems. You could say the same for Kubala vs Hierro but I haven't seen too much of the former and the latter is better defensively than Bozsik.
I'd agree with Bozsik struggling with Baggio, not least for selfish reasons, but I quite like Hierro against Kubala. From the little footage we have Kubala seems more a bulldozing Tevez type than a swift-footed Aimar, and Hierro will relish that sort of physical confrontation.
 

Synco

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I think Bobby Moore would absolutely thrive in that setup as a deep playmaker and mobile defensive sweeper.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Loved the video of Keegan @Pat_Mustard. So influential on the team as a whole with his relentless hustle and bustle and ballsy directness on the ball. Guys like him are invaluable in unsettling and disrupting otherwise organised defences.
Fecking hell @Pat_Mustard

Brilliant answer. I stand corrected. Cheers.
Thanks lads! I think that last post serves to demonstrate his style of play, but here's some quotes from our arch-nemesis' to deomonstrate his sheer influence:

RAWK said:
He never gets the credit he deserves.
Keegan in his first season was unplayable.
He came into a promising but inexperienced side and was the catalyst that made it great. He got the team to second place in his first year. First championship in seven years the year after that. First European trophy. First European Cup.
His contribution is overlooked because so few games were on TV then. If his goal in a 5-0 win over Newcastle had been televised we'd still be drooling over it on youtube now
RAWK said:
this club wouldnt be the club it is today without kevin keegan, when we had success under shankly in the 60`s we were just one of a number of clubs from that era who had won titles / f.a cups etc (everton, man city, leeds and man united even won a european cup)
we were just one of a pack of clubs but because we`d not long come out of the second division where we`d been for a good few years our fans really appreciated the success.
in the late 60`s we began to tail off and we were struggling to find another good side.
then keegan arrived, from the moment he started his first game against forest at anfield we suddenly looked a great side again, he was everywhere, he was a mixture of suarez, a quick dirk kuyt (in terms of his graft and energy levels) and tim cahill in the air.
on top of all that he was brave as f##k, diving headers where the boots were flying, clashing heads in aerial battles with big hard case center halves, coming to blows with the likes of john giles and billy bremner when they tried to intimidate him.
keegan was like owen in the sense that he scored in big games, he scored against the likes of leeds and united, he scored in f.a cup semi finals (which were huge games back then), f.a cup finals, he scored the winning goals in uefa cup finals and what about his goal away at wolves with minutes left on the clock and the title on the line, imagine some player did that these days, scoring in the last few minutes of the last game of the season when it looked like the league title had been blown.
it would be one of sky`s top 3 moments and all that malarky, every time you`d have one of those `20 years of sky` adverts they`d show that goal.
when kevin keegan signed for us we were just another club who had had a bit of success, when he left we were the best side in england, the best side in europe and a jammy goal away from doing the treble back in the days when doubles happened twice a century, the season before that we won the league and uefa cup.
when kenny dalglish signed for us that red number 7 shirt was already the most iconic football shirt in english football, he also signed for the english champions and the european champions.
when keegan left the fans werent just upset they were devastated, for a side who`s resurgence had been built on shankly`s brand of loyalty for the king of the kop to want to leave at the height of his powers was an act of betrayal that to this day still rankles with some fans.
imo some of the hero worship of kenny was from a fanbase on the rebound from kevin keegan.
at the end of the day kevin keegan imo is the most influential player this club has ever had, he belongs right up at the top table of legends that have played for us like liddell, dalglish, souness, gerrard etc and bill shankly himself said keegan was the best player he ever signed, i think that says it all
RAWK said:
what people often forget though is that we signed another absolute colossus of a player a couple of months after kenny in souness, in effect we replaced keegan with two of the best players that ever played for the club and before that season was over alan hansen got into the side as well.
people often say kenny replaced keegan and was better but the whole side got better which must have helped kenny.
after keegan left us the way he did people werent interested in over analysing the situation though, everyone was just made up we had someone...anyone, who could fill keegans boots.
steve nicol was a great player and i mean great but the likes of keegan was a class above him, keegan was getting rave reviews from the moment he broke into the team and by the mid 70`s keegan was regarded as the best player in the country, keegan was a bit like suarez in the sense that everything seems to happen around him, the game revolved around keegan
RAWK said:
Actually a bot of truth in that. Had we not replaced him so well his loss would of been felt much more deeply. He really was a terrific player. Luis reminds me of him with his industry. KK was always so vigorous just like Luis. He made so many runs and worked so hard that opposition sides just got broken down from his relentlessness. He might be a bit of a knob but he was a terrific player.
RAWK said:
what a great player he was, you forget he was only 20 when he transformed that side, on 40 quid a week and he led a side that had finished 5th the two previous seasons, both times finishing 15 points behind the eventual champions everton and arsenal (and 15 points in the 2 points for a win days was miles), he led them to finish 1 point behind the champions and in fact if emlyns goal at highbury would have stood on the last day of the season we would have won the title.
that was his first season.
he was 20 and leading from the front, first game no one had heard of him by his 5th game everyone had heard of him and by the time he left here he was one of the best footballers in the world and he had transformed the club.
RAWK said:
i think your missing the point, keegan was a major factor in this club becoming the force it did in european and english football.
before keegan we were just one of a number of clubs who had achieved a bit of success, in the decade before he arrived we had won the title twice (also finished runners up once) plus an F.A cup win, man united had won the title twice (runners up twice) plus a european cup and a F.A. cup, everton had won the title twice plus an F.A. cup win, leeds had won the title once (runners up four times, five if you include keegans first season) and lost three F.A cup finals, man city had won the title once plus an F.A cup win and arsenal had the same as city.
until keegan arrived there was nothing remarkable about us, we were just one of a host of clubs and infact when he arrived we were at the back of that bunch finishing 5th the two previous years and both times 15 points away from the champions (in those 2 points for a win days 15 points would be more like 25 points these days)
in the six years he spent here we won 3 titles, finished runner up twice and the other season we finished third, but ironically the season we finished third we ended up on the same points as second place leeds just 1 point behind the champions and we had a good goal ruled out away at arsenal on the last day of the season that would have made us champions.
in other words all the while keegan was here we either won the title or went very close
on top of that in those six years we won two uefa cups (in an era when some people said it was harder to win than the actual european cup) we appeared in two F.A cup finals winning one and we won the european cup.
in the six years keegan spent at liverpool we went from one of the pack to the best side in england and europe, no other club in the history of the game had had such a run of success and consistency
it depends what you call a legend i suppose, you could get someone from roy evans era going on telly saying this club means the world to him getting called a legend for his words.
personally my legends did their talking on the pitch, not in the tv studio.
none bigger than keegan in my book, he`s up there with the liddell`s and dalglish`s etc
RAWK said:
you obviously werent there, shankly was struggling to find a side, we spent big money on the likes of tony hately and alun evans and even toshack didnt look that great
we were actually gradually sliding away from the other clubs, keegan wasnt the last piece of the jigsaw, we never finished 4th then 3rd then 2nd then we signed keegan and he was the missing piece that took us that step to the top.
keegan was signed as a relatively cheap long term replacement for cally who had had knee trouble and had lost his pace, keegan was signed as a wide player and he was destined for the reserves
keegan just impressed so much in training that the coaching staff just thought f##k it lets throw him upfront with toshack and see what happens, the rest is history
the difference in the team when he got in it, from the first minute he got in it was immense, suddenly we had energy and purpose
keegan was 20 when he first got in the side and inspired by him we missed out on the title by a point and but for a refs decision we would have won it.
keegan inspired everyone around him, suddenly toshack didnt look so lumbering, cally didnt look finished, the weight of carrying the team lifted off tommy smiths shoulders (smith doesnt get enough credit for his leadership in those 6 barren years) the pressure was off heighway to create something.......i could go right through the side.
the fortunes of this club changed the day kevin keegan walked through the door
the only other time i`ve seen such a dramatic improvement in a liverpool side was when we signed barnes, beardsley, aldo and houghton......thats how dramatic the inclusion of 1 player was to that side.
 

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3) I understand the jarring aspect on the team sheet but bear in mind he's a sweeper here - he'll be covering both sides equally behind Thuram and Campbell. He's not really on a specific side in that regard.
I meant in the build up phase of course, not defensive.

Moore as the RCB hurts my eyes a little although in the defensive phase it's perfectly fine.. Most of his playmaking came from the left side of the pitch. Quite wide out sometimes from what I have seen
 

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Just fantastic from Mustard. And coming from someone who doesn't like zona mista. Keegan is definitely underrated and I was part of that group until gio corrected me in one match and then saw one of his games for both Liverpool and HSV. A type of player where stats don't tell half the truth. Absolute force of nature and one of those forwards who are so tough, almost nightmare to play against.

Anyway, really close. Btw. for some weird reason (and that's probably me being me, so don't pay attention) the use of those jerseys in some way brought less attention that Himannvictus have Baresi, Figo and Muller in their team.
Himannvictus is a cool name though.
 
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There seems to be some criticism of Kubala's ability to influence the game in a position that should give him the flexibility to do just that.



The above is impressive considering the competition he had to face.

Di Stéfano heralded Kubala as “one of the best there has ever been”. Di Stéfano also said about the Hungarian superstar: “His game was pure, crystalline, a real joy for the fans. He was potent, technical, fast, and a great goal-scorer”, a quote from Jimmy Burns’ book La Roja.
FC Barcelona’s official history describes Kubala as “the most charismatic Barça player of all time”.
Kubala’s genius transcended a glorious spell in Barça’s early history. The man was “our Messi”, according to Josep Seguer, a former teammate of the Hungarian.
Gustau Biosca, offered the most illustrative evaluation of Kubala’s impact. Biosca claimed: “When he [Kubala] was on the pitch we had the feeling that we couldn’t lose. He dominated the game and dominated the ball, created an atmosphere of optimism, a winner’s mentality… he transformed football”.
The following season, Barça won the Spanish double, Kubala’s most mesmerising performance being a seven-goal haul in a 9-1 victory over Sporting Gijón.
All taken from the following article by Charlie Pritchard, which is an engrossing read in itself if you're into that:

https://thelinesman.org/2018/11/14/laszlo-kubala-fc-barcelonas-original-spellbinding-icon/


Regarding his positioning, if you look through this video, there's plenty of nice footage of him playing more centrally and influencing the game from the middle of the park. While there's no doubt he'd be ok as a wide forward, there's also no doubt he'd be fantastic through the middle behind the main striker. He's well suited to being the star of the team in that role as the above quotes and the footage clearly indicate.

 

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Baggio and Keegan are spot on in that setup. More curious about how Charles fits with two but the duo is a cracking one for this setup.

On the other side, not really sold on Kubala being an ideal candidate for the #10 role in that team. No question on his stature or ability but he's usually seen more of an inside forward who'd be better suited for a wing forward role who can bring in his great dribbling, close control, acceleration and shooting into the picture. I know some of the players of that generation get remembered as superbeings so I am sure there would be some anecdote citing his passing skills but especially with a striker like Muller you'd prefer someone uber-creative first and foremost putting it on a plate for the German, and that's something that team very much needs in my opinion.

Leaning towards Pat as his defense is absolutely top class, high amount of energy and steel in midfield with Baggio in a role that would make him truly shine and probably the decider in this match up.
In addition to the above post on Kubala, I'd also like to address this point regarding Muller. Bomber's overall game is very underrated, especially his link-up play and defensive workrate. He's often portrayed as an opportunistic poacher but he led the Bundesliga twice for assists (including the 1971/72 season where he scored 40 and made 17 assists in 34 games). Also has 100+ league assists overall, which is higher than playmakers like Overath, Robben, Häßler, Scholl.

Short snippet of his skill around the box...


And compilation of his movement towards midfield...


Credit to @Invictus for the points and videos. He posted this to me when we were debating on whether to make him our main man in Round 1. Also see the note about him from Cruyff's autobiography in the OP.
 

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Called it a draw. Must say one thing though that this thing that is going on in drafts with midfielders who are among greatest playmakers in history, but not so "mobile" like Bozsik, Pirlo, etc is a bit crazy.
 

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Called it a draw. Must say one thing though that this thing that is going on in drafts with midfielders who are among greatest playmakers in history, but not so "mobile" like Bozsik, Pirlo, etc is a bit crazy.
Agreed. I don't get why Bozsik seems to getting so much stick here. Of course, he's not some uber athlete like Davids or something like that. For me he's the creative midfielder in a midfield duo. He plays as a DLP for most part and he can most certainly tackle from the albeit limited footage I've seen of him. He's also quite good in the air. As is the case with most DLPs, his skills lie in positioning and reading of the game more than energetic movement. This is in no way less efficient IMO. The below all touch video is obviously the most common video available and most people have watched it, but it does show the positioning aspect, as well as how he creatively controls the game when in possession. He's not lightening quick or anything like that, but his skill and intelligence makes up for that, as does his passing and creativity. Pair him up with someone more dynamic like Bremner and it should work fine as a midfield duo in any real game.

 

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Called it a draw. Must say one thing though that this thing that is going on in drafts with midfielders who are among greatest playmakers in history, but not so "mobile" like Bozsik, Pirlo, etc is a bit crazy.
In this case I think it's justified since he's against a highly mobile 10. If he were not against that type of 10 it wouldn't be a problem
 

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In this case I think it's justified since he's against a highly mobile 10. If he were not against that type of 10 it wouldn't be a problem
Bremner is there. And Baresi, Forster behind.

"Problem" I have is that people look at it one-sided (liability and neglect his playmaking) and on top of that see it at the pitch as 1 vs 1 in isolation with the rest of the team.
 

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Bremner is there. And Baresi, Forster behind.

"Problem" I have is that people look at it one-sided (liability and neglect his playmaking) and on top of that see it at the pitch as 1 vs 1 in isolation with the rest of the team.
When in the defensive phase but when Himannvictus lose the ball he could be isolated and that's where I see the problem
 

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When in the defensive phase but when Himannvictus lose the ball he could be isolated and that's where I see the problem
Are you saying he'd be a liability if a counter is on and he’d rely on a foot race with Baggio to stop it? And that Baresi, Forster, and Bremner wouldn’t adjust for this and sort it out? As a DLP he’d rely on his positioning and reading of the game primarily right?
 

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Are you saying he'd be a liability if a counter is on and he’d rely on a foot race with Baggio to stop it? And that Baresi, Forster, and Bremner wouldn’t adjust for this and sort it out? As a DLP he’d rely on his positioning and reading of the game primarily right?
I'm not saying he's an entire liability but if Bremner is further forward in the attacking phase it could be a problem - I assumed Bremner was playing his classic B2B role and if so Bozsik could be isolated. His positioning could mitigate it but it can only get you say far.

Forster and Baresi can't exclusively focus on Baggio as they have Keegan and Charles to worry about.
 

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I can understand the pain of picking Bozsik/Pirlo/Ocwirk etc but I think in GOAT laden midfields, they will be seen as liabilities unless you have a packed midfield with multiple players contributing in the defensive phase.

I don't think their offensive contribution is overlooked per se.

If I was to build a team with them, I'd probably choose a draft with a block list.

Just rechecked and didn't see any posts on Figo's off the ball workrate in helping out Bozsik. That definitely would have been a plus point.
 

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The day started well for Bozsik when he was surprisingly given the armband over the far more obvious candidate in Baresi but things quickly turned south when he was nutmegged 3 times in a row by Baggio before he skipped over his sorry ass laying on the ground to score a 25 yard screamer.
 

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Must say one thing though that this thing that is going on in drafts with midfielders who are among greatest playmakers in history, but not so "mobile" like Bozsik, Pirlo, etc is a bit crazy.
I think this may only get better if it becomes the norm to post one's defensive formation & a rough plan for defensive transition. The way it is now, we are mostly measuring offensive formation against offensive formation, and as a result defense is often imagined in terms of 1:1 duels of players in the same spot. ("Maradona vs Pirlo")
 

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In addition to the above post on Kubala, I'd also like to address this point regarding Muller. Bomber's overall game is very underrated, especially his link-up play and defensive workrate. He's often portrayed as an opportunistic poacher but he led the Bundesliga twice for assists (including the 1971/72 season where he scored 40 and made 17 assists in 34 games). Also has 100+ league assists overall, which is higher than playmakers like Overath, Robben, Häßler, Scholl.

Short snippet of his skill around the box...


And compilation of his movement towards midfield...


Credit to @Invictus for the points and videos. He posted this to me when we were debating on whether to make him our main man in Round 1. Also see the note about him from Cruyff's autobiography in the OP.
You are definitely right in your general points about Müller, so this is just an addition for those who are interested.

I find it very hard to nail down Müller's playing style conclusively - there are basic traits & habits he displayed in almost every game, but he was also extremely flexible in how he applied them to match situations. I tried to sum up my impressions in this post a while ago.

That Madrid game you posted game is a prime example of his expansive "box to box" incarnation. But, funnily, I remember the first leg in Madrid as a quite good example for "poacher Müller". (Which is a bit unusual, as Bayern and Müller normally played much deeper in away games, and more "regular" at home.)

So imo it's important not to replace the narrow poacher cliché with a too enthusiastic embrace of the "false 9 Müller" narrative, but to see how versatile and unique he was as a player.

I tried to figure out the patterns behind Müller's different incarnations, in which situations he tended to play a certain way, and this is what I came up with: I suppose key is that Müller was a team player through and through, and a hugely intelligent one at that. So he always looked to adjust his role to his environment and the tactical needs of the team. (Coaching and match fitness probably played a role as well.)

For the national team, where Müller played with world class midfield generals and good to very good wingers, I never saw him play quite like in this video. But he partly did at Bayern in the 70s, where there was no elite midfield playmaker, and often role player level wingers (Hoeneß and young Rummenigge being the exceptions, but they weren't available all the time). Bayern also sported a quite cynical & defensive style in tough/big games during that period. So Müller adapted and contributed lots of midfield stuff, taking up considerable responsibility in defense & offensive transition. Faster players often took up more advanced positions.

My speculation is that in the setup of this draft match he would have played more like NT Müller (box striker with some false 9 elements), and not as expansive as in that Madrid game.

(I'd love to see more full match footage of everyday league/cup/qualification games to watch him in less high profile situations, but almost none is available.)
 
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