Why cant we play 4-4-2?

Cassidy

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Seriously is it that bad that we can't play a 442 anymore? Pros and cons of this please.
With out current set of players. The formation isn't the issue.

Also we don’t really have enough real wingers or strikers for that matter to play a 442
 

Bubz27

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We don't have 2 strikers currently. And even when they're all fit, we'd only have one reserve.
 

Skills

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We essentially do with Lingard as the SS.

Formation nomenclature means squat really.
 

Samid

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  • Don't have two strikers
  • Don't have a RW
  • Don't have players disciplined enough for a two man midfield

Apart from that it could work.
 

Walters_19_MuFc

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In our current situation, we've just about got enough forwards to play one up top, nevermind two. However, if we did have enough strikers, its certainly something that we could play.

Obviously the old school 442, in that you have two wingers, two box to box midfielders and two out and out forwards is long gone, but there's different variations to the 442 in the modern game.

Ole did try this against PSG and Arsenal which worked pretty well.

Going forward, i'm sure Ole will want to continue with a 4231, which isnt too dissimilar to the 442, but he obviously needs players of a better quality.

Between now and January/summer, we need to be coming up with a strategy in which to create more chances. If that means a change of formation to a 442, then so be it. Something needs to change!
 

Walters_19_MuFc

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We essentially do with Lingard as the SS.

Formation nomenclature means squat really.
Lingards been awful, but I wonder if him staying high up is a tactic from Ole. It almost seems like more of a 4411 from Ole, which is kind of what he played in, with one of the strikers dropping off.

I say this because I watched Angel Gomes do the same thing against Astana. He played very high between the lines and got into good positions. Unfortunately, we didnt have the creativity from deep to find him.

I think if that is the case, players like Dybala, Zaha, King, Alberto are the type of players we should be targeting, as opposed to playmakers like Maddison, Eriksen, Fernandes, etc.
 

Schmeichel=God

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Glad someone else is asking the question.

I feel we need the two striker formation but not with a two man midfield.

Just posted this in another thread.


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There is no synergy between any of our players and what does this lead to? Safe side and back passes. There is zero guile around the box and this has been the case for years now. Each manager has failed in some way shape or form. But it only requires one or two key relationships to form to give a fighting chance. As sad as it may seem the best one we had was the teams' understanding with Fellaini's strengths and positioning.

The current squad is just not good enough to play whichever variant of 4231/433 we've played in the last 5 years. Playing with one striker has borne no fruit, whether that striker is Romelu 'can't control the ball' Lukaku, or Marcus 'slap it ahead of me or I'll slap it from a mile out' Rashford.

In my opinion we need to define our attacking transitions better, because we simply cannot leave it up to the players to create dynamically in game. Therefore I truly feel we need to revert to a two striker formation, Yorke/Cole esq. Allow the front two to actually build a relationship based on movement and creativity. How can one striker build a relationship with a hit and run winger/wing forward who more often than not gets crowded out and forced to turn back whilst the opposition regroups? One striker to receive the perfect cross from a wide player running at break neck pace.

The two striker setup allows us two options when needing to play through the lines if it's tight playing out from the back or in midfield. Once at their feet we can spread play to either side of the pitch, or to the strike partner. Chances for a through ball that create a shooting opportunity will be increased due to the structure. It is a simpler structure that requires less movement and transition overall, which at the moment suits our less than intelligent team.

The only question for me that remains is whether that formation is best facilitated by a 4 or 3/5 man defence. Given our uselessness in midfield and lack of natural wingers I would say the following would be our best approach.





Security at the back and possibilities for both counter attack and possession across the pitch.

Presence in the attacking third with Shaw on the ball looking like this, mirrored for an attack on the right side:

 

Ramshock

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Glad someone else is asking the question.

I feel we need the two striker formation but not with a two man midfield.

Just posted this in another thread.


-----------------------


There is no synergy between any of our players and what does this lead to? Safe side and back passes. There is zero guile around the box and this has been the case for years now. Each manager has failed in some way shape or form. But it only requires one or two key relationships to form to give a fighting chance. As sad as it may seem the best one we had was the teams' understanding with Fellaini's strengths and positioning.

The current squad is just not good enough to play whichever variant of 4231/433 we've played in the last 5 years. Playing with one striker has borne no fruit, whether that striker is Romelu 'can't control the ball' Lukaku, or Marcus 'slap it ahead of me or I'll slap it from a mile out' Rashford.

In my opinion we need to define our attacking transitions better, because we simply cannot leave it up to the players to create dynamically in game. Therefore I truly feel we need to revert to a two striker formation, Yorke/Cole esq. Allow the front two to actually build a relationship based on movement and creativity. How can one striker build a relationship with a hit and run winger/wing forward who more often than not gets crowded out and forced to turn back whilst the opposition regroups? One striker to receive the perfect cross from a wide player running at break neck pace.

The two striker setup allows us two options when needing to play through the lines if it's tight playing out from the back or in midfield. Once at their feet we can spread play to either side of the pitch, or to the strike partner. Chances for a through ball that create a shooting opportunity will be increased due to the structure. It is a simpler structure that requires less movement and transition overall, which at the moment suits our less than intelligent team.

The only question for me that remains is whether that formation is best facilitated by a 4 or 3/5 man defence. Given our uselessness in midfield and lack of natural wingers I would say the following would be our best approach.





Security at the back and possibilities for both counter attack and possession across the pitch.

Presence in the attacking third with Shaw on the ball looking like this, mirrored for an attack on the right side:

Great post, Ive brought up 532 or 352 before with this current team but its not a popular thought on here.
 

momo83

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Seriously is it that bad that we can't play a 442 anymore? Pros and cons of this please.
SAF didn’t win more CL because of the 442. Hence why he signed Veron to try playing a 433, and why we won out next CL playing a 433, albeit without Veron. But if you look at our best controlled performances against big teams in Europe they came when we had Veron. Eg beating Juventus 0-3 in Italy.

Playing 442 With Scholes and Keane, two of the best, we’d get outplayed by Real Madrid who had 3 in CM. Now imagine with our current midfielders in the EPL where every team more or less has 3 cm’s. We see it now with our 4231 formation. We have no control in midfield.
 

Classical Mechanic

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I think 3-5-2 is the best formation for Pogba. With Ax you have the recovery pace to play a higher line. Problem is that we don’t really have wing backs.
 

gajender

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Great post, Ive brought up 532 or 352 before with this current team but its not a popular thought on here.
Because our fullbacks are use less in final third of the pitch we already struggle badly when it comes to creating chances imagine adding another defender to the team it won't change much for us might even make things worse.
 

Ramshock

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SAF didn’t win more CL because of the 442. Hence why he signed Veron to try playing a 433, and why we won out next CL playing a 433, albeit without Veron. But if you look at our best controlled performances against big teams in Europe they came when we had Veron. Eg beating Juventus 0-3 in Italy.

With Scholes and Keane we’d get outplayed by Real Madrid who had 3 in CM. Now imagine with our current midfielders in the EPL where every team more or less has 3 cm’s. We see it now with our 4231 formation. We have no control in midfield.
Im not saying exclusively. SAF still played 442 in some games after that. It was the Ronaldo being applauded off the park at OT game that forced him to rethink european games but we still employed 442 as well
 

fps

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Great post, Ive brought up 532 or 352 before with this current team but its not a popular thought on here.
While I see the rationale, I don't see 3 at the back working, especially with Shaw and Wan Bissaka as the wing-backs. It looks like extra defensive coverage and being light up top.

However, 4-4-2 with McTominay and Pogba centre mid, James left, Pereira right (for now, but will at least run inside to provide extra midfield cover), then Rashford and Martial, I reckon there's pace and mobility. It's also closer to how the team felt when Ole began, because he could push those full-backs wide and get Pereira to tuck in and get James turning and running at people from inside left (is that the right term?) positions. OK, he's not Pogba up the pitch in an all-too-rare purple patch, but he's direct, carries goal-scoring threat, and couldn't be ignored by defences.
 

Ramshock

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Because our fullbacks are use less in final third of the pitch we already struggle badly when it comes to creating chances imagine adding another defender to the team it won't change much for us might even make things worse.
Williams/Dalot/Shaw/AWB will be in a naturally further position and all are capable of getting forward. They would just have to improve their end products
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Bissaka----------Lindelof----------Maguire----------SHAW

Pereira-------------McTomminay-----------Pogba-----------James

Rashford/Greenwood - Martial
Doubt Ole will play 442 this season unless if we get a new manager like Howe.
 

gajender

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Williams/Dalot/Shaw/AWB will be in a naturally further position and all are capable of getting forward. They would just have to improve their end products
Just because they would be playing further doesn't mean they would suddenly improve their attacking and link up play it's just not about their end product Evra hardly had any end product but was fantastic attacking fullback .

For all the plaudits AWB is getting right now for he looks quite poor on the ball and Shaw doesn't contribute much in attacking third either other two are hardly tested at this level so for its just not worth it for me atleast but considering we are hardly pulling up any trees even now so what the heck.
 

Ramshock

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Just because they would be playing further doesn't mean they would suddenly improve their attacking and link up play it's just not about their end product Evra hardly had any end product but was fantastic attacking fullback .

For all the plaudits AWB is getting right now for he looks quite poor on the ball and Shaw doesn't contribute much in attacking third either other two are hardly tested at this level so for its just not worth it for me atleast but considering we are hardly pulling up any trees even now so what the heck.
Jesus Christ what I just say at the end of my post ?
 

90 + 5min

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I don't like talking football in strict numbers. I realy don't think it is about how you set up. One thing that I learned taking my UEFA coaching licence is that it is up to what players you have, can they do that job and how balanced the team is. Whatever tactic you use, there is players out there who can fit into it to make it succsessful. it is just matter of finding them and getting them. And it starts with a manager with his ideas if the club don't have some "play book" how every manager should coach that team. Even with same manager things can change over time. We just need to look to ourselfs and Sir Alex Ferguson. He went from 4-4-2 to more a 4-3-3 style (I don't like saying that). On paper. In reality he didn't change to much. It was still well balanced team with more attacking qualities then defensive.

Here comes problem. Sir Alex Ferguson left. Aging squad but still well balanced. You could say that the team could play every system. First it was Moyes (Made misstake changing staff and by that taking out one leg of everything Ferguson did) then Louis van Gaal (totally different football) and then Mourinho (totally different football). You got a team now that lost its compass and with so many changes lost Everything that a team should have. That is why I would give Ole more time even if it is going a Little bit rough at the moment because of the squad.

With that said. Can we play 4-4-2? Whit players we have I don't think so. Maybe someone thinks that but I don't. I don't see how we could get right balance in midfield. I definitly think that we also lack real forward for this.