Time to abandon this 4-2-3-1

AndyMUFC · Oct 6, 2019

The 4-2-3-1 we’ve used since pre season has been an unmitigated disaster so far, even when everyone is fit.

I got the rationale behind it, Ole obviously thought that numbers are limited in midfield and neither Lingard and Mata are out and out wingers so would be better inside.

But neither of those two do enough to be a team’s main creative player, Pogba should be that and he’s too deep when he is in the side, whilst we still don’t have a natural right winger so go back to what was working before.

We’d still have problems if we switched back to 4-3-3 but we’d surely look a bit better going forward than we do now.

Raw · Oct 6, 2019

I find it strange that Ole practically got the job playing a 433, yet now he's deciding on a 4231? Surely we have the players for it, despite Herrera leaving? Why utilise a formation that needs a productive #10 when we literally have none of them?

Sir Scott McToMinay · Oct 6, 2019

It worked for him in his United save on FM, Lingard was tearing it up.

FootyGirl88 · Oct 6, 2019

I don't know why he keeps persisting with it, it's awful and leaves us with big gaps in midfield.

MrSingh2002 · Oct 6, 2019

Hate to break it to you. But the formations not the problem.

It's probably the 20th biggest reason why we're playing dogshit.

chris123 · Oct 6, 2019

It's a dreadful system, and I'm not sure why he insists on playing it. What's stranger is that he insists on playing a fourth central player on the right wing in Pereira at all times, which sacrifices any of the benefits of playing a 4-2-3-1.

We would be so much more balanced with a fluid 3-man midfield or even better, a diamond, with Rashford/Martial having freedom to interchange up front.

Gerald G · Oct 6, 2019

Sir Scott McToMinay said:
It worked for him in his United save on FM, Lingard was tearing it up.

That did make me chuckle

friendlytramp · Oct 6, 2019

No one to anchor the midfield in a 433. Matic in the team is a liability. if we can find a dm in jan we’re back to 433

TheReligion · Oct 6, 2019

chris123 said:
It's a dreadful system, and I'm not sure why he insists on playing it. What's stranger is that he insists on playing a fourth central player on the right wing in Pereira at all times, which sacrifices any of the benefits of playing a 4-2-3-1.

We would be so much more balanced with a fluid 3-man midfield or even better, a diamond, with Rashford/Martial having freedom to interchange up front.

I don't get why we keep going with it either. Any ideas? I'm banging my head thinking about it. So unbalanced.

Kostur · Oct 6, 2019

Doesn't matter if it's 4321, 433, 451, 442, 343 or some other shit.

Lee565 · Oct 6, 2019

It's almost one of the worst formations to choose for this team and yet it's the one he has chosen and persisted with?

Rozay · Oct 6, 2019

He’s mentioned in his post-match interviews for the first time that he may have to change the way we are set up at some point. I assume this is what he means. I hope so, because it was a moronic switch, putting Pogba deeper as he has done is akin to Sarri playing Kanté on the right.

That said, the real issue is the lack of recruitment in the midfield. Last season he played Matic, Herrera and Pogba - and Herrera has since left and Matic has since underlined the fact that he is finished.

Kag · Oct 6, 2019

This is one of our issues - apart from the fact that the majority of our forward players are terrible.

Van Gaal made this very same strange decision entering his second season, too. It didn’t serve him very well either.

Crashoutcassius · Oct 6, 2019

formations matter way less than people think. i guess if you are a fan that watches football 2 hours a week it is really one of the only tactical things that you can perceive. seems to me like the difference between having 1 player 10 yards further forward or back would be dwarfed by other tactics and the form of players like rashford and pogba

charlenefan · Oct 6, 2019

Has any team had success with 4231?

MyOnlySolskjaer · Oct 6, 2019

Kostur said:
Doesn't matter if it's 4321, 433, 451, 442, 343 or some other shit.

Exactly this, formations don't even matter. The squad overall is not good enough, the coaching isn't good enough.

Sir Scott McToMinay · Oct 6, 2019

charlenefan said:
Has any team had success with 4231?

Jose’s Real Madrid, Chelsea, Bayern, Dortmund, ...
I personally dislike it, but if you have a no.10 like Lampard, Muller/Kroos, Prime Ozil or the wonderkid Gotze when he was phenomenal it could work I guess.

Charlie Foley · Oct 6, 2019

Herrera is a big loss in midfield. Matic also is not producing the sort of form he did in Ole’s early period last season (Chelsea away he was brilliant for example)

R'hllor · Oct 6, 2019

Always hated that junk formation (hatred not based on football knowledge), if you wanna play 4-3-3 play it with one DM point back, i see so much more balance in it. Instead we going 4-2-3-1 with Lingard as number 10, Christ almighty

Ballache · Oct 6, 2019

I was ok with it when we were linked with #10's all summer. As soon as we failed to sign one, we should have reverted to a 433.

charlenefan · Oct 6, 2019

Sir Scott McToMinay said:
Jose’s Real Madrid, Chelsea, Bayern, Dortmund, ...
I personally dislike it, but if you have a no.10 like Lampard, Muller/Kroos, Prime Ozil or the wonderkid Gotze when he was phenomenal it could work I guess.

How much did any of those teams win though? All of those sides you've mentioned (Bayern aside) were one season and that's it

Point being it's not a good system, all of the most dominant sides over the past 10 years have played a 433

Sir Scott McToMinay · Oct 6, 2019

charlenefan said:
How much did any of those teams win though? All of those sides you've mentioned (Bayern aside) were one season and that's it

Point being it's not a good system, all of the most dominant sides over the past 10 years have played a 433

Sorry, can’t be arsed to check but from memory Dortmund won 2 titles with Klopp playing mainly 4-2-3-1, Madrid were breathtaking to watch at times and won the league against Barca, should’ve won the CL in 2012 too.
Chelsea won the CL playing 4231, and the league under Ancelotti and Jose in 2015.

4-3-3 isn’t some magic formation, forget it.

UNITED ACADEMY · Oct 7, 2019

What was Ole thinking about using 4231 without signing a top class no 10. Feckin Bruno Fernandes was available.

Florida Man · Oct 7, 2019

Formations really shouldn't matter as much if you have a good manager.

charlenefan · Oct 7, 2019

Sir Scott McToMinay said:
Sorry, can’t be arsed to check but from memory Dortmund won 2 titles with Klopp playing mainly 4-2-3-1, Madrid were breathtaking to watch at times and won the league against Barca, should’ve won the CL in 2012 too.
Chelsea won the CL playing 4231, and the league under Ancelotti and Jose in 2015.

4-3-3 isn’t some magic formation, forget it.

Should of's just proves my point and the league wins for Chelsea were one and done affairs

You can say 433 isn't a magic formation but it's the formation Barcelona have played for the past 10 years, it's the formation Klopp has gone with at Liverpool, Guardiola at City, Real Madrid when they won 3 back to back UCL's. Facts are facts and 4231 has not be a formation that has brought any team any real sustained success down the years. 433 has

Physiocrat · Oct 7, 2019

Brucie's 541 for the win

Nr.7 · Oct 7, 2019

Sir Scott McToMinay said:
It worked for him in his United save on FM, Lingard was tearing it up.

This is probably true. I’ve been saying he’s treating this as a FM save.
Too bad he can’t use the save/load cheat.

Superden · Oct 7, 2019

doesnt matter what formation is played, if players arent prepared to pass the ball properly (ie none of this look up take two touches and then recycle backwards) or make runs (a few crosses yesterday couldnve turned out much better if a player had made the expected run to the near post) then the shape of the team is of little consequence. Whether its just low confidence, fear, poor coaching, lack of abiity or all of them its now been going on for years, under different managements.

SirReginald · Oct 7, 2019

Sir Scott McToMinay said:
Sorry, can’t be arsed to check but from memory Dortmund won 2 titles with Klopp playing mainly 4-2-3-1, Madrid were breathtaking to watch at times and won the league against Barca, should’ve won the CL in 2012 too.
Chelsea won the CL playing 4231, and the league under Ancelotti and Jose in 2015.

4-3-3 isn’t some magic formation, forget it.

Ancelotti started with a diamond and once that wasn't quite working he switched to 4-3-2-1 actually. Malouda playing in LF and sometimes CM and Anelka was a RF. We destroyed the league that year.

Secondly, 4-2-3-1 4-3-3 4-1-4-1 4-5-1 and 4-3-2-1 are all variations of 4-3-3/4-5-1 depending on the mentality set up, whether it's on the front foot or sitting back or wide or narrow play.
There is no need to get so stuck up on any one formation, most managers opt for fluidity these days and not stick to rigid systems.

At the end of the day, Utd has a weak midfield after all those player sales, theres no denying it. Pogba in form would get into any side but I cant think of another player. I told my mate when we sold matic, when he is good he is great, when he is bad he is horrific. I never bought the media hype that we shouldn't have sold him.

The last couple of seasons you guys have been really solid in defence/goal and rarely conceded, that was your strength and bullied people with tall strong midfielders. Right now it's just not there and it doesnt matter what formation you use. Clearly you need a real striker, a real winger (rashford ain't a winger) and about 2 or 3 top midfielders.

If the planning is done right, the thread title is almost irrelevant.

Havak · Oct 7, 2019

I've been discussing this with a lot of people. We played 433 until Herrera got injured, this gave us probably our best run of form and performances since Fergie I'd argue. Herrera didn't come back into the side as a mainstay because it was clear he wasn't going to be signing a new deal. Ole obviously feels that Fred, Andreas, and Matic are not going to be able to allow us to replicate that system playing with Pogba & McTominay, so is trying to persist with something else. I think the only option is to perhaps try to persist with Fred in the Herrera/Matic role, or McTominay in either of those roles, allowing Pogba to break forward for deep instead of barely passing the half way line, but what we've seen so far from Fred, Andreas, and Matic after his first 6-8 months with the club and short spell under Ole leaves a lot to be desired.

Hopefully, once everyone we need is fit we can hopefully play this side in the League for a run of games. If it doesn't make us perform better and get some results though, then there really is no current solution until we can buy more players:

de Gea
Wan-Bissaka Tuanzebe Maguire Shaw
Fred McTominay Pogba
James Martial Rashford

TheGame · Oct 7, 2019

We should look at 4-4-2 with 2 strikers up top and more direct style of play or maybe a 3-5-2 with James up top with Martial or Rashford. We haven't got a decent number 10 so no point playing 4-2-3-1.

Mark Pawelek · Oct 7, 2019

Keep it against Liverpool, City and teams who'd otherwise thrash us. Do not play it against AZ Alkmaar, Newcastle and Rochdale, who we should be thrashing.

Konimey · Oct 7, 2019

Playing a lone striker up front is not getting United any goals, especailly when our most creative player is out injured. Maybe Ole needs to stick up 2 stikers to increase the chances. Playing 422 is not possible because we do not have the players to do it. Maybe the 352 can make a comeback. United have 3 cbs in Axel, Victor & Slabhead to play that formation. Our Midfield is always overrun by the opposition, so why not stick 5 in there & 2 striker up to create more chances with the players we have got now.

Tony Banta · Oct 7, 2019

Havak said:
I've been discussing this with a lot of people. We played 433 until Herrera got injured, this gave us probably our best run of form and performances since Fergie I'd argue.

This isn’t true, in Oles 2nd game v Huddersfield we played 4-2-3-1, 3rd game v Bournemouth we also played 4-2-3-1. There were other times as well. He didn’t exclusively play one formation, we played for example a 4-3-2-1 and a 4-1-2-1-2.

We had decent form but the performances were often poor.

romufc · Oct 7, 2019

He keeps playing the same players and same formation hoping for it to click one week?

Where is the tactical knowledge? Try something different?

SadlerMUFC · Oct 7, 2019

If we had a really good #10 then I would understand the persistance of a 4-2-3-1. Unfortunately we don't. We do however have two really good strikers in my opinion who or isolated. So rather than play some variation of a 3 man midfield I would rather we just went back to basics and played a 4-4-2. Sure, against the bigger teams we can switch to a 4-3-3 or some variation of it, but for most games, I would rather see us set up like so:

------------------------De Gea----------------------
AWB-------Tuanzebe/Lindeloff--Maguire------Shaw
Young--------McTominay---Pogba---------James
-------------Rashford--------Martial----------------

roonster09 · Oct 7, 2019

Amazing how Ole wanted to play with 4-2-3-1 but didn't sign a proper 10.

Swiss_Red89 · Oct 7, 2019

When Pogba and Martial are back I would try to play a 4-3-1-2.

---Mctominay---Fred---Pogba-----
--------------Martial---------------
---Rashford----------James------

With Martial acting a bit as a false 9 like Firmino is doing for Liverpool.
And Rashford James down the channels using their pace.

11101 · Oct 7, 2019

I have always hated 4-2-3-1. You need to have two absolutely top class midfielders to make it work. Almost all our players would fit a 433 better but Ole seems completely clueless.

GazTheLegend · Oct 7, 2019

Physiocrat said:
Brucie's 541 for the win

That cnuts woke up this morning thinking he’s a tactical genius

His sides shite and it makes it even worse somehow that it’s him and his brand of football that have seriously smashed our season to pieces once and for all

Time to abandon this 4-2-3-1

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