If Mourinho's authority and ideology were given more backing, would we be challenging?

AllezLesDiables · Oct 10, 2019

The black and white thinking in this thread is staggering.

Mourinho was a toxic mess of a manager and he wasn’t backed.

I posted here that it would end in tears because his success comes at the cost of his narcissism. He refuses to take responsibility for anything.

It’s like people are willingly ignoring his Sevilla rant or that Conte came in and won the league for Chelsea after his his meltdown there.

Oh but the players downed tools too much player power yadda yadda.

He is insufferable and his toxicity permeates through the club.

He can certainly manage but it comes at massive cost.

roonster09 · Oct 10, 2019

RedSky said:
Jose fans are hilarious

I think they'd forgive him for taking a dump on the half way line and setting fire to Stretford End. Bizarre.

He did that because he wasn't backed.

MackRobinson · Oct 10, 2019

Lentwood said:
2nd and two trophies with this mob suggests the bloke still knows something about management

- 2nd place closer to 5th than 1st
- Poor performance in CL
- 2 mickey mouse trophies you would be making fun of rivals for bragging about

You're welcome for the context.

I know I sound like a broken record but I'm not going to let you guys rewrite history :lol:

Sir Scott McToMinay · Oct 10, 2019

MackRobinson said:
- 2nd place closer to 5th than 1st
- Poor performance in CL
- 2 mickey mouse trophies you would be making fun of rivals for bragging about

You're welcome for the context.

I know I sound like a broken record but I'm not going to let you guys rewrite history

Talk about rewriting history.
I bet you were making fun of Liverpool for losing their EL final, it’s a European trophy we haven’t won before, it’s not as prestigious as the CL or the PL, but it’s still a European trophy that was worth winning for two reasons.

Globule · Oct 10, 2019

Results wise, his record was good considering what came before and after. But with Mourinho it wasn't just results that got him sacked, it was the baggage that we knew would arrive at some point but were willing to ignore initially because of the mess we'd found ourselves in. In the end it became too much and I don't think we should pine after him just because we're now in a worse position.
Solksjaer doesn't look to be the answer, but that doesn't mean the man who came before him is simply because he failed to a lesser degree.

MackRobinson · Oct 10, 2019

Sir Scott McToMinay said:
Talk about rewriting history.
I bet you were making fun of Liverpool for losing their EL final, it’s a European trophy we haven’t won before, it’s not as prestigious as the CL or the PL, but it’s still a European trophy that was worth winning for two reasons.

That's essentially my point. Besides automatic CL qualification, it's a meaningless trophy. It would have meant even less if the squad finished in the top 4 instead of 6th. If both trophies actually mattered they would be named. We both know ambiguously stating "he won 2 trophies" sounds a lot better than "he won the Europa League and League Cup."

Skills · Oct 10, 2019

AllezLesDiables said:
The black and white thinking in this thread is staggering.

Mourinho was a toxic mess of a manager and he wasn’t backed.

I posted here that it would end in tears because his success comes at the cost of his narcissism. He refuses to take responsibility for anything.

It’s like people are willingly ignoring his Sevilla rant or that Conte came in and won the league for Chelsea after his his meltdown there.

Oh but the players downed tools too much player power yadda yadda.

He is insufferable and his toxicity permeates through the club.

He can certainly manage but it comes at massive cost.

This sums it up and why nobody is going near him.

Sir Scott McToMinay · Oct 10, 2019

MackRobinson said:
That's essentially my point. Besides automatic CL qualification, it's a meaningless trophy. It would have meant even less if the squad finished in the top 4 instead of 6th. If both trophies actually mattered they would be named. We both know ambiguously stating "he won 2 trophies" sounds a lot better than "he won the Europa League and League Cup."

Going by that logic all trophies are meaningless essentially, football is meaningless.

We’re not in the Fergie era anymore, forget it.
Nothing should be taken for granted.
"he won the Europa League and League Cup.”,honestly looks like a pretty damn good season to me, look where the feck we are now.
That was the best we’ve had in the last six years, whether Mourinho was a failure in your eyes or not, these achievements shouldn’t be laughed at as if we’re some great team, we’re years away from it.

Apokalips · Oct 10, 2019

AllezLesDiables said:
The black and white thinking in this thread is staggering.

Mourinho was a toxic mess of a manager and he wasn’t backed.

I posted here that it would end in tears because his success comes at the cost of his narcissism. He refuses to take responsibility for anything.

It’s like people are willingly ignoring his Sevilla rant or that Conte came in and won the league for Chelsea after his his meltdown there.

Oh but the players downed tools too much player power yadda yadda.

He is insufferable and his toxicity permeates through the club.

He can certainly manage but it comes at massive cost.

Fully agreed. Jose was never going to work. In life you have to be adaptable and Jose quite simply isn't adaptable enough, instead he goes to war at all junctions. His management style is tiring enough for the fans, imagine how it is for his players. He even says, often enough, that he feels you have to sacrifice entertainment for results and vice versa, which is a limiting belief and against the values any top club should have.

We have seen his story play out so many times and this is the reason that the only big clubs that would go near him are ones that are incredibly desperate. He may end up having to go the Rafa route ironically.

Greck · Oct 10, 2019

roonster09 said:
He did that because he wasn't backed.

Sometimes it's like they forget they are talking about a grown adult. "If he was backed he wouldn't have gone toxic". Really???

MackRobinson · Oct 10, 2019

Sir Scott McToMinay said:
Going by that logic all trophies are meaningless essentially, football is meaningless.

We’re not in the Fergie era anymore, forget it.
Nothing should be taken for granted.
"he won the Europa League and League Cup.”,honestly looks like a pretty damn good season to me, look where the feck we are now.
That was the best we’ve had in the last six years, whether Mourinho was a failure in your eyes or not, these achievements shouldn’t be laughed at as if we’re some great team, we’re years off of it.

I have no idea how you reached the conclusion in the bolded, but that's not even remotely what I said. I'm talking about two specific trophies he won, Europa League and League Cup, compared to the other trophies he could have won, Champions League, Premier League, and FA Cup. It's really simple and no amount of mental gymnastics changes that.

Van Gaal won the FA Cup and got 5th place. Was that a great achievement as well?

MackRobinson · Oct 10, 2019

Greck said:
Sometimes it's like they forget they are talking about a grown adult. "If he was backed he wouldn't have gone toxic". Really???

It's a personality cult

Sir Scott McToMinay · Oct 10, 2019

MackRobinson said:
I have no idea how you reached the conclusion in the bolded, but that's not even remotely what I said. I'm talking about two specific trophies he won, Europa League and League Cup, compared to the other trophies he could have won, Champions League, Premier League, and FA Cup. It's really simple and no amount of mental gymnastics changes that.

Van Gaal won the FA Cup and got 5th place. Was that a great achievement as well?

Huh? What makes the FA cup more valuable than the Europa League?
When Arsenal won 3 Fa Cups in like 4 years, no one really cared or took them seriously, they were still crap.

MackRobinson · Oct 10, 2019

Sir Scott McToMinay said:
Huh? What makes the FA cup more valuable than the Europa League?
When Arsenal won 3 Fa Cups in like 4 years, no one really cared or took them seriously, they were still crap.

Neither is very valuable. I'm illustrating the point that saying "Manager ABC won X trophies", especially when they aren't the PL or CL, doesn't mean much.

RedDevilUnited369 · Oct 10, 2019

AllezLesDiables said:
The black and white thinking in this thread is staggering.

Mourinho was a toxic mess of a manager and he wasn’t backed.

I posted here that it would end in tears because his success comes at the cost of his narcissism. He refuses to take responsibility for anything.

It’s like people are willingly ignoring his Sevilla rant or that Conte came in and won the league for Chelsea after his his meltdown there.

Oh but the players downed tools too much player power yadda yadda.

He is insufferable and his toxicity permeates through the club.

He can certainly manage but it comes at massive cost.

I thought I was the only one that could see it this clearly.

If you own a football club, Jose is one the biggest risks you can take.

Even if you try to get in the players he wants, due to the current state of the market you might not be able to...and if that happens Jose will embarrass the club in the media so badly.

Bebestation · Oct 10, 2019

If he hasn't had a history of lasting longer than a 3 year spell at a single club on his CV even at his 'own clubs' like Chelsea - it just wouldn't happen at United.

We would have got useful but older players like Perisic or Matic in an emergency 3rd season and watch it all unsurprisingly fail because it wouldn't be good enough.

As much as I dislike Jose - he is one of the best managers ever for a quick fix playing under one plan - however he doesn't have a single ability to adapt his methods, tactics nor plans of the whole team and this usually needs to be done at any club in a third season onwards - be that after success or after failure.

Lentwood · Oct 11, 2019

MackRobinson said:
- 2nd place closer to 5th than 1st
- Poor performance in CL
- 2 mickey mouse trophies you would be making fun of rivals for bragging about

You're welcome for the context.

I know I sound like a broken record but I'm not going to let you guys rewrite history

What do you mean “re-write History”?

Can you point out which part of what I said was factually incorrect or even potentially misleading?

Withnail · Oct 11, 2019

Lentwood said:
Let me just remind everyone at this point that roughly a year ago, the majority of this forum were complicit in hounding out one of the most successful and greatest football managers of all time

Thanks

Ohhhh, It's the Caf's fault a failing manager who had clearly thrown in the towel and had lost the dressing room was sacked. :houllier:

Withnail · Oct 11, 2019

MackRobinson said:
- 2nd place closer to 5th than 1st
- Poor performance in CL
- 2 mickey mouse trophies you would be making fun of rivals for bragging about

You're welcome for the context.

I know I sound like a broken record but I'm not going to let you guys rewrite history

It was three trophies if you believe Mourinho. He should have got the sack for that hold-up-3-fingers cringefest in Stockholm.

Enigma_87 · Oct 11, 2019

MackRobinson said:
What do his past achievements have to do with his then-current performance over 3 years? Nothing.

Generally he was a good appointment for the first two years. All things considered he did well. The best we had since Fergie. The issue was after that Sevilla game where something broke and there was no coming back.

He wasn't backed that was true, maybe if he was we would have been around 3/4 for another season or two.

Problem is that he should've been appointed before LvG, or even Moyes for the matter. We were late going for him. If we took a champions side and with the resources we would have we'd be challenging every season. Then after 3-4 years get someone with long term vision until we have a proper structure.

Fredo · Oct 11, 2019

Enigma_87 said:
Generally he was a good appointment for the first two years. All things considered he did well. The best we had since Fergie. The issue was after that Sevilla game where something broke and there was no coming back.

He wasn't backed that was true, maybe if he was we would have been around 3/4 for another season or two.

Problem is that he should've been appointed before LvG, or even Moyes for the matter. We were late going for him. If we took a champions side and with the resources we would have we'd be challenging every season. Then after 3-4 years get someone with long term vision until we have a proper structure.

After the sevilla game, Jose disrespected the club that employed him in the first place. His tactics were cowardly in most games, spent most of his time fighting with top players instead of gaining their trust. If I am a coach and I identify Martial and Pogba as my top talents in the squad, I would look to build my team around those players, Jose broke every possible relationship with the players and it's not just those two players. Good riddance for our club as we played our best football since Fergie retired after we axed Jose, he just did not deserve any more time.

Enigma_87 · Oct 11, 2019

Fredo said:
After the sevilla game, Jose disrespected the club that employed him in the first place. His tactics were cowardly in most games, spent most of his time fighting with top players instead of gaining their trust. If I am a coach and I identify Martial and Pogba as my top talents in the squad, I would look to build my team around those players, Jose broke every possible relationship with the players and it's not just those two players. Good riddance for our club as we played our best football since Fergie retired after we axed Jose, he just did not deserve any more time.

I won't defend him for what happened after that. He also knows it that the sacking was deserved.

There was better ways to act when he's not on the same opinion as the board.

Falling out with the players was his peril, but also some deliberate actions to prove something to outsiders and the board which wasn't in Uniteds best interest.

Sir Scott McToMinay · Oct 11, 2019

Fredo said:
After the sevilla game, Jose disrespected the club that employed him in the first place. His tactics were cowardly in most games, spent most of his time fighting with top players instead of gaining their trust. If I am a coach and I identify Martial and Pogba as my top talents in the squad, I would look to build my team around those players, Jose broke every possible relationship with the players and it's not just those two players. Good riddance for our club as we played our best football since Fergie retired after we axed Jose, he just did not deserve any more time.

The football heritage part was correct, you don’t get to the upper stages of the CL without being in the competition for several years, consistently, clubs don’t win this competition from nowhere, that usually never happens.
We haven’t been a serious competitor in this competition since 2011, what he did wrong was pointing out he was managing some of the teams that knocked us out, that was a mistake, bad one.

So you think we should build the team for the future around a player who doesn’t want to be here (Pogba), and a player who is never fit whenever we need him and is utterly inconsistent (Martial)?

I personally hope we don’t do that.

roonster09 · Oct 11, 2019

Sir Scott McToMinay said:
The football heritage part was correct, you don’t get to the upper stages of the CL without being in the competition for several years, consistently, clubs don’t win this competition from nowhere, that usually never happens.
We haven’t been a serious competitor in this competition since 2011, what he did wrong was pointing out he was managing some of the teams that knocked us out, that was a mistake, bad one.

So you think we should build the team for the future around a player who doesn’t want to be here (Pogba), and a player who is never fit whenever we need him and is utterly inconsistent (Martial)?

I personally hope we don’t do that.

Football heritage thing was nonsense, Liverpool played once in CL before Klopp took over (in 6-7 years) and they were knocked out in group stages. Under Klopp they went to finals in 1 season and won the finals in next season. So there goes the heritage nonsense.

It's just one more excuse for best salesman ever.

Sir Scott McToMinay · Oct 11, 2019

roonster09 said:
Football heritage thing was nonsense, Liverpool played once in CL before Klopp took over (in 6-7 years) and they were knocked out in group stages. Under Klopp they went to finals in 1 season and won the finals in next season. So there goes the heritage nonsense.

It's just one more excuse for best salesman ever.

Klopp built a very special team in Liverpool, that by itself goes beyond experience.

Many other teams struggled in this competition, Arsenal in the late 90s/early 00s, City in their first couple of seasons, PSG, Juventus under Conte, even Klopp’s mighty Dortmund were a non factor in 11-12.

roonster09 · Oct 11, 2019

Sir Scott McToMinay said:
Klopp built a very special team in Liverpool, that by itself goes beyond experience.

Many other teams struggled in this competition, Arsenal in the late 90s/early 00s, City in their first couple of seasons, PSG, Juventus under Conte, even Klopp’s mighty Dortmund were a non factor in 11-12.

It's not about teams struggling, it's about his heritage nonsense. You are good enough, you will qualify, if opponents are good on that day they will qualify. We played poorly in both legs and went out. I don't think anyone will have problem with that, it's his heritage nonsense. You don't need history of good performance in CL and Europa league before to play well. History won't be helping the team. Sevilla were good in Europa league, not CL. He just twisted everything and came up with loads of nonsense.

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate · Oct 11, 2019

Sir Scott McToMinay said:
The football heritage part was correct, you don’t get to the upper stages of the CL without being in the competition for several years, consistently, clubs don’t win this competition from nowhere, that usually never happens.
We haven’t been a serious competitor in this competition since 2011, what he did wrong was pointing out he was managing some of the teams that knocked us out, that was a mistake, bad one.

So you think we should build the team for the future around a player who doesn’t want to be here (Pogba), and a player who is never fit whenever we need him and is utterly inconsistent (Martial)?

I personally hope we don’t do that.

Yet, Mourinho did it at both Porto and Inter, didn't he?

MackRobinson · Oct 11, 2019

Lentwood said:
What do you mean “re-write History”?

Can you point out which part of what I said was factually incorrect or even potentially misleading?

Sugarcoat, tell half-truths, rewrite, or whatever you want to call it.

I went over this already. His 2nd place finish wasn't that impressive when you consider he didn't challenge for a title (closer to 5th than 1st) and the results in CL were very poor. Not only that but these 2 trophies he won are the Europa League and League Cup, minor trophies (an important fact that is conveniently ignored).

HowYouDoin · Oct 11, 2019

The more we continue our downward spiral the more Mourinho gets redeemed in the eyes of the soccer world.

As it turns out, his vision of what he wanted to implement is proving spot on. He wanted to sign Maguire, a no brainer. He wanted to sell Pogba, I have no idea why we didnt do it in the summer if we had a choice, such a no brainer. Plus he branded the likes of Shaw, Martial and Rashford as inadequate players for a world class team. He wasn't wrong.

They're decent players but likely not the caliber for a team that wants to challenge for Champions League.

Now I realize his detractors might point out to Mourinho signing Baily and Lindeloff already. Well fair enough, they didnt pan out as he expected but they didnt turn to be horrible players either. Sometimes you swing and you miss, teams like Madrid and Barcelona make bad purchases too but for the level they want to attain, you gotta keep spending.

We just didnt have the same ambition that Mourinho had. In a way we deserved Solskjaer. We deserved to have a manager that would let 'Rashy' take free kicks from mid field .

Lesson learned. Mourinho fell out with the board when they decided not to back him after he felt he did miraculously well by finishing 2nd.
I still think all things considered Mourinho should have been sacked after Sevilla but lesson learned for sure. We have got to be ambitious like he was. Get a less toxic, younger version but someone as ambitious and someone that understands what world class is....and what Luke Shaw is on the other hand.

steffyr2 · Oct 11, 2019

HowYouDoin said:
The more we continue our downward spiral the more Mourinho gets redeemed in the eyes of the soccer world.

As it turns out, his vision of what he wanted to implement is proving spot on. He wanted to sign Maguire, a no brainer. He wanted to sell Pogba, I have no idea why we didnt do it in the summer if we had a choice, such a no brainer. Plus he branded the likes of Shaw, Martial and Rashford as inadequate players for a world class team. He wasn't wrong.

They're decent players but likely not the caliber for a team that wants to challenge for Champions League.

Now I realize his detractors might point out to Mourinho signing Baily and Lindeloff already. Well fair enough, they didnt pan out as he expected but they didnt turn to be horrible players either. Sometimes you swing and you miss, teams like Madrid and Barcelona make bad purchases too but for the level they want to attain, you gotta keep spending.

We just didnt have the same ambition that Mourinho had. In a way we deserved Solskjaer. We deserved to have a manager that would let 'Rashy' take free kicks from mid field .

Lesson learned. Mourinho fell out with the board when they decided not to back him after he felt he did miraculously well by finishing 2nd.
I still think all things considered Mourinho should have been sacked after Sevilla but lesson learned for sure. We have got to be ambitious like he was. Get a less toxic, younger version but someone as ambitious and someone that understands what world class is....and what Luke Shaw is on the other hand.

Just to check.... do you think every manager who loses a cl knockout game should be fired, or should we review their post- game press conference before deciding?

Kostov · Oct 11, 2019

I read on Twitter that Mourinho only accepted the Fred signing because it was him or no midfielder last summer. It was from The Athletic not sure which journalist.

ThierryHenry14 · Oct 11, 2019

HowYouDoin said:
The more we continue our downward spiral the more Mourinho gets redeemed in the eyes of the soccer world.

As it turns out, his vision of what he wanted to implement is proving spot on. He wanted to sign Maguire, a no brainer. He wanted to sell Pogba, I have no idea why we didnt do it in the summer if we had a choice, such a no brainer. Plus he branded the likes of Shaw, Martial and Rashford as inadequate players for a world class team. He wasn't wrong.

They're decent players but likely not the caliber for a team that wants to challenge for Champions League.

Now I realize his detractors might point out to Mourinho signing Baily and Lindeloff already. Well fair enough, they didnt pan out as he expected but they didnt turn to be horrible players either. Sometimes you swing and you miss, teams like Madrid and Barcelona make bad purchases too but for the level they want to attain, you gotta keep spending.

We just didnt have the same ambition that Mourinho had. In a way we deserved Solskjaer. We deserved to have a manager that would let 'Rashy' take free kicks from mid field .

Lesson learned. Mourinho fell out with the board when they decided not to back him after he felt he did miraculously well by finishing 2nd.
I still think all things considered Mourinho should have been sacked after Sevilla but lesson learned for sure. We have got to be ambitious like he was. Get a less toxic, younger version but someone as ambitious and someone that understands what world class is....and what Luke Shaw is on the other hand.

Just back the manager for 3 seasons for once. If it doesn't work out in the end at least it will make the life of next manager easier.

Skills · Oct 11, 2019

ThierryHenry14 said:
Just back the manager for 3 seasons for once. If it doesn't work out in the end at least it will make the life of next manager easier.

How do more Matics, Sanchez's and Fred's make life easier for the next manager?

ThierryHenry14 · Oct 11, 2019

Skills said:
How do more Matics, Sanchez's and Fred's make life easier for the next manager?

I am refering to OGS.

Siorac · Oct 11, 2019

ThierryHenry14 said:
Just back the manager for 3 seasons for once. If it doesn't work out in the end at least it will make the life of next manager easier.

How?

Having Sanchez or Matic or Fred on the payroll certainly didn't make the current manager's life easier.

EDIT: @Skills I swear I didn't see your post before posting!

Siorac · Oct 11, 2019

HowYouDoin said:
The more we continue our downward spiral the more Mourinho gets redeemed in the eyes of the soccer world.

As it turns out, his vision of what he wanted to implement is proving spot on. He wanted to sign Maguire, a no brainer. He wanted to sell Pogba, I have no idea why we didnt do it in the summer if we had a choice, such a no brainer.

Which summer? In 2018? Because he had been signed only two years before, for a club record, he was still young and clearly one of our best players. And knowing Mourinho he probably would have replaced him with Thiago Motta.

Or do you mean this summer? When we already lost a first-team midfielder in Herrera, and signed no one? It would have been stupid to sell him - we're light in midfield as it is.

R'hllor · Oct 11, 2019

Bloody hell its like trying to shake off followers of some ex dictator.

Hisha · Oct 11, 2019

https://www.goal.com/en/news/man-ut...llaini-slams-short/18r52xfbslp401f5ybh7dlkpcf

'Man Utd were too quick to sack Mourinho' - Fellaini slams short-term vision at Old Trafford

roonster09 · Oct 11, 2019

Kostov said:
I read on Twitter that Mourinho only accepted the Fred signing because it was him or no midfielder last summer. It was from The Athletic not sure which journalist.

No. He signed Fred as he assumed/thought its Fred or no midfielder.

Kostov · Oct 11, 2019

roonster09 said:
No. He signed Fred as he assumed/thought its Fred or no midfielder.

Ok, he assumed, someone probably gave him such an indication, if the report is true.

If Mourinho's authority and ideology were given more backing, would we be challenging?

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