You know how a black person knows when you are being racist? A Muslim person can pick up on Islamophobic tendencies, which I'm seeing a lot of in this thread, also someone like @Carolina Red who I have a lot of respect for, is coming across as condescending and dismissive and I know that's never good in a debate, I actually feel sad about that.
LGBT Relationship Lessons in UK Schools
- Thread starter esmufc07
- Start date
Put it this way mate, if they are struggling to even hold a polite debate with the likes of me, you and @Zlatattack and I'd consider us super liberal from a muslim perspective and totally in support of LGBT teaching in schools, feck knows how these morons are going to be able to build relations with your average muslim and build a school curriculum where parents of all faiths and creeds feel comfortable.
We laugh at Brexiteers as being pig-headed and bigoted, but the left militant atheist faction is just as fascist in its approach and dismissive of other peoples cultures, values.
Instead of thinking, okay I disagree, but lets find a way to compromise.. it is my way or the highway bullshit. Society is broken as hell.
Getting really bored of your name-calling, strawmen, fake outrage and victimhood.
Just because I think something is made up it doesn't mean I don't think it can affect things. The Abrahamic religions designated homosexuality a sin and look at the effect that had. Not believing in the underlying doctrine wouldn't have made life much better while they were jailed or killed.
Could you point these out? I haven't really noticed any but as you said you have a keener eye and could probably explain it to me.
Just returning the favour after being called a 'raging homephobe'.
I'm specifically talking the UK as it is now as a secular state.
I don't really see it as an big deal, it's a sin in the exact same way sex outside of marriage is a sin. That doesn't really seem to bother anyone that it's viewed as a sin, and from a religious perspective there's no difference. I accept culturally people do tend to bash on the homosexuality sin more.
I'm not into calling names but I got bored from this thread and stopped replying as well due to the amount of people who are not even willing to have a proper discussion. Someone on the previous page even denied that it's a grey area. It's basically black and white and not up for discussion.
If it's not up for discussion and everyone with differing views is a dumbass why bother? I understand his frustration.
On this very page for example @Eyepopper assumed my position on the matter even without me expressing any opinions on the matter just because I'm Muslim, I'm not calling him an Islamophobe but I know now his opinions are set on me just because I'm Muslim even though I haven't said anything, @Smores said that he can see why some people are uncomfortable and it might be too early, but it's okay he is not a Muslim and is entitled to his opinions but when a Muslim guy basically said the same thing he got attacked endlessly and his words were changed to make him look like a homophobe.
The Western world hasn't been kind to us Muslims lately, we get mistreated and dismissed a lot of opportunities because people have their minds set on us and think they can dictate the way we live and how we think, and if we disagree on anything we are given labels and called names and they say we are extremists because they think this so called "modern Islam" is the way we have to live and believe in, if we try to conserve our faith and our way of life we are called extremists.
I would like to add that when it comes to discussing Islamophobia everybody turn to the word "tolerance", why is that? are my believes really that hurtful to you that the most you can do is "tolerate" me? I would also like to see material in schools that teach kids how to be sensitive to people of faith and different races, we ignored this issue for so long and now we have the likes of Trump and Boris Johnson.
@Raees I understand it's a complex subject, but I'm still not clear on the part where you said:
It's hard for me to imagine that a kid to whom cross-dressing was just fun could be sent through such a wild trajectory by being taught about the subject. I can't open your second link, but I did find this, which closely corresponds to the scenario you painted, except she's 14, did not transition, and later on reflects on the situation:
I'd expect any case like this to be very rare, not to progress into a stage where it requires detransitioning (which from what I'm reading is usually due to a multitude of other factors); and from what I understand, majority of any mistaken beliefs we hold about our ourselves/identities, however briefly, are usually due to, like the above, some views we have internalised rather than exposure to external information (i.e. being taught). But it's indeed a complex topic and this is indeed my opinion again.
Last edited:
Yes, the far left is just as bigoted as Brexiters. Bit of a false equivalency though don't you think?
The far left are an extreme minority. Brexiters are a small majority (at the time of the vote). A better comparison would be to use the far right, who want to kill people for their beliefs.
It isn't Islamaphobic or Christianophobic (or antisemetic or anti-scientologist) to not want religion involved in the making of public policy, except in the sense of ensuring freedom to practice religion.
Religion and the state should be totally separate especially in education.
It was the part where he argued that it was because some kids might get tricked in becoming transgender when they weren't that he's getting pulled up on.
Even better, he's cited some examples to support this being not quite astute enough to recognize that they don't teach this subject in school today and thus consider that these children were confused because they grew up without a place to talk about these things that was supportive and inclusive and answered their questions without prejudice, ignorance or hate so they could learn and make rational, informed decisions.
Still doesn't mean he's a homophobe.
Yes.
I am totally againt religious lessons in school but a civics type course that includes the way government and law works and including overviews of the major religions of the world and their beliefs should be compulsory. Msybe the bullshit being oeddeled and believed about the EU would have fallen at the first hurdle if we had such lessons.
Ignorance has a great deal to answer for.
Just as you don't have to wear a bed sheet and burn crosses to have an opinion that is informed by racism, even if the individual holding the opinion rationalises it or doesn't realise what informs the opinion, you don't have to be a hate spouting homophobe to have an opinion that is, deep down, informed by homophobic ideas.
Most people who feel any discomfort about gay or trans (or other sexuality/gender identity) people will feel that way due to being, conciously and unconciously, told since birth that straight is the only normal.
Everyone has these influences and the important thing is to not rationalise and reinforce them. Work on understanding them and pushing away the irrational makes the world a better place.
We're not just told that. I think it's pretty obvious straight human beings are naturally more common than homosexuals. It is therefore very natural for it to be seen as a "special" case. I don't see it as being homophobic if you hope your kid doesn't turn out gay. It's one of the many things I hope my kid doesn't become -- ton of which are normal things. Doesn't mean I'm gonna abuse them or be against them but everyone has a vision for their child.
EDIT: also, having an outlook that is racist vs an opinion that might have formed from racist ideas (as a by product) are two totally different things. You can't equate them.
You should probably take a minute to think about your posts before you make them, rather than typing words that clearly read as A and then say they meant B. 'I didn't mean that, I just wrote that, but meant something different' is on you for typing out something that you didn't mean.
That's not what the discussion has been about for the last 10 pages or so, it was about Raees and others saying that a person can grow up to be gay in spite of their natural preferences because of something they were taught in school, that sexuality can be a choice, and that straight girls become lesbians because they see celebrities doing it. This is not a grey area in 2019. This is just archaic dinosaur views that express a gross misunderstanding of sexuality, something that is not a grey area anymore and is very well known in society. Even if people do then come out and say 'the words I typed didn't mean what they say, I actually meant something different'. Also I've read the thread from start to finish.
I agree, but I think that no one should interfere with relegion schools and call for them to be closed, and I'd never say in a school with such diverse groups should have relegion teachings, but I read here in this thread many posts mocking a making fun, why? What do they gain by bringing that into a debate?
I’m sorry, I just have a very low patience level for things like the belief that people can be brainwashed into being or not being homosexual.
I grew up in, live in, and teach in a society that largely still thinks that way and I have seen the effect that kind of thought process writ large has on the mental state of students I’ve taught who are homosexual.
I actually had no idea these things still happen in America, Houston is excellent in this aspect.
The rural South / deep South might as well be a time machine with regards to issues like homosexuality.
No one is stating otherwise in this thread. What they are saying is parents should have a say or choice on what they want their kids taught at the age 4. Clearly there is grey area where this a private and public issue.
I honestly thought homophobia is dead in the west, with how much candidates are pushing for LGBTQ+ rights, and how much every forum I visit pushes for equality and gay rights, I thought that can only mean that homophobia is mostly dead.
To tell the truth I think I had some uncomfortable moments moving to the west interacting with gay people at the start, I've never had any exposure to openly gay people and had a lot of awkward moments trying not to act in a way that would make them feel uncomfortable to the point of making it unintentionally uncomfortable, so I see it as a huge problem in the east
It is still a massive problem in the US and it is helped along by the teachings of the Evangelical churches. I’ve literally had students tell classmates that they’re an abomination to God and defend it by saying “well that’s what the preacher said”.
This is such a disgusting statement, someone saying it to another human being is disgraceful, let alone a kid wow.
I don't see the problem. They've been telling us how Jesus got nailed for ages.
I applaud this approach. You’re spot on but too limited in scope. I think you should extend this further. Don’t teach her about religion or god. What if she becomes religious and starts believing in misogynistic fiction just because she’s brainwashed into it?
I think messing with kids and telling them you can worship, you can have “personal relationships” with fictitious beings etc before they have had the chance to naturally develop their logical preference and orientation is wrong.
Cheers!
Last edited:
My son was repeatedly taunted at primary school with "you will burn in hell" comments for opting out of the weekly indoctrination sessions allowed in Australian schools.
He just said things like "you're nice" until one day he got pissed off and told the bull "yiu do know that god is just a made up story". Tears ensued from the bully.
I then got called with the suggestion that my son was the bully and might get suspended. A visit to the school later I had a written apology after expressing myself rather vigorously to the head. Schools like societies are still hugely influenced by religion in a way that should have been banished forever.
Evangelical Christianity promotes this stuff. Australia has an evangelical PM who belongs to a church that protected the paedo behaviour of the founder and also tell believers thst god wants them to be wealth at the expense of others.
I think we may be heading off track a tad.
After skimming through this rather bizarre thread, I think you've chosen the wrong place to take a stand against white, militant liberalism. As a brown guy, I know what you mean but I don't think that's what's happening here. Your initial point about the age-appropriateness of sex education is legitimate but the rest of the stuff doesn't make much sense. It almost seems you're being deliberately provocative and using the resulting backlash to prove that the left are being contemptuous.
Regarding the topic title, I think its a good step forward. I don't see why it shouldn't be taught.
The people who do hold irrational beliefs about sexuality should just get with the times. It really is as simple as that.
The people who do hold irrational beliefs about sexuality should just get with the times. It really is as simple as that.
How is it a grey area, though?
Children in EYFS are taught about forming relationships and recognising similarities and differences. There are some incredibly worldly four year olds, make no mistake.
Informing these children about the Protected Characteristics and explaining that it is illegal to discriminate against them is a very simple thing to do. Some children will understand it, some will not. But all you’re doing is telling them that “some men love other men and some women love other women and that’s ok”.
There is nothing grey about that.
What!?
I couldnt give a shit what religion you follow.
I haven't assumed anything about you, much less 'because you're a Muslim.'
Hoping your kid doesn’t turn out gay is homophobic though, because the only reason you would hope he/she doesn’t is if you feel there is something wrong with it and that it is not a normal way of life.
There is far too much homophobia in society, and I find it encouraging that such backward and archaic views (which have no place in a modern society) are challenged strongly on this forum.
But this whole thing has been misunderstood from the very start. Relationship Education is about teaching children the different sorts of relationships that exist in a modern Britain. It is not teaching children about gay sex. And schools have the ability to set when it will be taught, just so long as that it is taught in early years education, so it isn’t even set in stone that it will be taught ages 4.
The protests in Birmingham are rooted in homophobia. That homophobia stems from a religious text that they follow. Same for the Christians who are against it. As @Wibble said, religion and education should be kept apart.
I think thats a little harsh to be honest. There are plenty of reasons why a parent might want their kid to turn out a certain way, from sporty and smart to, funny and handsome. Theres nothing wrong with not being into sport, but is it really wrong for a parent to hope that the opposite is true? In my opinion thats a view that is liberal for the sake of being liberal just to push the 'i'm a progressive person' narrative. Theres a big difference between hoping for one outcome and then shunning the opposite. If my child was gay I would do everything in my power to support them but I can still hope they are straight for a multitude of other reasons.
I haven’t been following this thread closely, so apologies if I am out of line but surely the “grey area” being discussed here is valid - i.e. I though what is being debated is “when or how old” the kids should be when the topic is ideally introduced and not “should or shouldn’t the topic be introduced?”. On the latter, there’s obviously zero grey area.Spot on.
"Grey area discussion"
Even in a Western country, being straight is far, far easier and less painful than being gay - I don't think it's homophobic to hope that your child won't be gay in a world where reactionary politics and persecution in the name of religion are still depressingly common.
Don't be surprised. It's what society is and always has been. What do you think integration is? Align all your values with ours and then you'll be integrated, otherwise you won't. As a minority group we have to accept we could be in Europe for 1000 years and still not be fully integrated. Look at the Roma for example. That's why I still have a Pakistani passport and land back home. One day a day will come where we'll have to choose between our values or our homes.
It'll never be the man on the street that's the problem, rather the opinion makers, the influencers - they'll never be happy whilst we are who we are.
---------------
The other thing is, I don't know why Muslim parents today are getting so worked up. Our parents who were from foreign lands were never fazed by any of this.
When you were at school, how did you know not to eat the pork or the meat, despite everyone else having it? You were told it was haram and not suitable for you.
How did you know to check the ingredients on packets of sweets/snacks to see if they were suitable for vegetarians? You were taught it, so you did.
If people were innapropriately dressed on telly or kissing etc you knew to change the channel - why because you were told this was unacceptable for you as a muslim to watch.
School can tell them what they like - we tell them who they are, and what they should do and how they should behave. Yeah it'll be awkward, but feck it, educating our children to keep away from bad and go towards good is our duty, not schools.
Last edited: