LGBT Relationship Lessons in UK Schools

Tarrou

Full Member
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
25,540
Location
Sydney
This discussion reminds of the new law here in portugal where transgender teens (in process of changing sex and followed by doctors, etc.) can pick which bathroom to use at high school.

Conservatives went nuts and some parents too, but when reporters went on to talk to the actual high school kids they couldn't find one that was against it. They tried for hours in dozens of schools and the kids either couldn't care less or were in favor of it. A couple of stories actually surfaced that in a couple of schools kids actually organized themselves to let it happen without the school knowing, which was pretty inspiring.

Adults need to stop treating kids like they're babies, they know what's going on and they don't have an entire life of listening to religious and conservative bs, so they're fine with these things and they're not going to change their sex preference or gender because of it. They will learn new stuff, realize it's normal and move on. Unless they're then brainwashed at home or church but that's something we unfortunately can't control.

People are trying to protect kids and teens from something that is simply not there.
That's great, but not that surprising really. I don't see why kids would be against this unless they've learned that from their parents.
 

Jippy

Sleeps with tramps, bangs jacuzzis, dirty shoes
Staff
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
57,233
Location
Jet fuel doesn't melt steel beams
@Synco I think that if you live in a country where being gay is illegal its not homophobic to want your kid to be straight because your natural instinct is to want to protect them from that culture. Do you disagree? By all means explain why and I'm happy to listen. I don't think you've managed to articulate why exactly thus far, but by all means quote yourself if you think you have. I'm sure I could be wrong about this.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about though. Apologies for quoting you @Jippy but I think it's a very strong and valid point.



Does that not seem a logical stance of a parent to you?

And yes, using race as an example puts a new perspective on it which is good, but ultimately you can't compare the situations like-for-like due to their enormous complexities. Surely you don't disagree? You are quite correct I should not have used the word meaningless, that was wrong. In any case, I'll respond to your question.



If you don't want your kid to have a black partner purely because they are black - it's racist. If you don't want your kid to not have a black partner because you fear for their safety - it's not.

I am not 100% sure of that opinion either, but for me if it is racist it's borderline. And in the interests of not shutting down a discussion before it gets going, I'd lean towards not labelling someone as racist or homophobic, if I consider that reasonable, because continuing the discussion is much more productive.
Just seen how many typos are in my quote! It's been a long week with our company's conference etc...:wenger:
 

Smores

Full Member
Joined
May 18, 2011
Messages
25,496
I really can't fathom how having a preference for your child to be straight or gay is homosexual beyond some very strict ideological stance? Not unless you're trying to enforce that on them.

Surely when people say they don't care they mean they'll love them either way not that they don't care because it'll make no difference to the kids life because we all know that isn't true irrespective of what we hope the world to be. You're far more likely to be depressed or commit suicide as a gay man and whilst you'd obviously try and do everything to protect your child from that if they were gay they still have to face society alone and no one especially these days is going to trust in the advancement of society.
 

Wibble

In Gadus Speramus
Staff
Joined
Jun 15, 2000
Messages
88,608
Location
Centreback
"extreme left echo chamber" :lol:
Bizarre to think that simply thinking informing young kids that LGBTI is a thing can be viewed as being extreme left.

It also seems weird that people can't accept many views involve bias even if it is buried quite deep. We all have biases and influences and how we examine and deal with them is the important thing.
 
Last edited:

Don't Kill Bill

Full Member
Joined
May 14, 2006
Messages
5,652
If you choose to ignore the accumulated insight of experts and go all on instinct you're gonna feck up a helluva lot more than people who read Piaget and Erickson while also raising kids.

I know because my kids are all adults now.
Firstly, I never said that.

I responded to a post which said that raising children doesn't give you insight into raising children. Clearly that is wrong. I think anyone who really thinks that is mistaken.

If your take on reading all the books is that being a parent can be learnt from a book then you are reading the wrong books and I will happily leave it there and let everyone who reads your posts decide who they think is right.
 

Spoony

The People's President
Joined
Oct 27, 2001
Messages
63,107
Location
eerF Palestine.
I loved primary school btw. Secondary was a bit well....shit. Not that this has anything to do with this debate. But heh..
 

Zlatattack

New Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2017
Messages
7,374
Their own. Sometimes from previous relationships and sometimes using donor eggs or sperm. Others do of course adopt. I know gay couples in all three situations.
I dont know any gay people personally. I worked with someone who was gay and I had no idea until he mentioned his boyfriend was ill.

So the bit in bold is confusing. I know it happens, I just don't know how/why. I suspect sexual preference is not binary.
 

Wibble

In Gadus Speramus
Staff
Joined
Jun 15, 2000
Messages
88,608
Location
Centreback
Primary school seems far too early for any type of sexual education, to be honest.
It isn't sex ed which is only taught in high school. Relationships ed is quite different and will be age appropriate.
 

Tarrou

Full Member
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
25,540
Location
Sydney
I dont know any gay people personally. I worked with someone who was gay and I had no idea until he mentioned his boyfriend was ill.

So the bit in bold is confusing. I know it happens, I just don't know how/why. I suspect sexual preference is not binary.
Lots of reasons probably. Gay relationships are still criminalised in dozens of countries though, so that is one reason why someone might end up in a hetero relationship with kids despite being gay.

But I think you are right sexuality is a scale, with some on the far extremes, but most lying somewhere in the middle
 
Last edited:

oneniltothearsenal

Caf's Milton Friedman and Arse Aficionado
Scout
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
11,082
Supports
Brazil, Arsenal,LA Aztecs
Firstly, I never said that.

I responded to a post which said that raising children doesn't give you insight into raising children. Clearly that is wrong. I think anyone who really thinks that is mistaken.

If your take on reading all the books is that being a parent can be learnt from a book then you are reading the wrong books and I will happily leave it there and let everyone who reads your posts decide who they think is right.
You didnt understand my post.
 

Sky1981

Fending off the urge
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
30,003
Location
Under the bright neon lights of sincity
Should be optional. You really cant force these kinds of things on a 10 years old. Even with the best intentions it can go exteremely wrong in practice.

I think they should educate the parents before they educate a 10 years old. Teach them how to deal with lgbt kids, or how to detect them, what's genuine lgbt and what's just a normal children behavior.

i really dont like how any sensible debate be clustered into full liberal or homophobic. There's always gray area and each culture and upbringing will have their own sets of red lines. Maybe it's lgbt for some, maybe it's religion, maybe for some it's political believes.

It's impossible as a parent not to have to actively stir your kids towards something you yourself see as the right things to do. What if they start giving how to safely smoke marijuana, because nowdays it's legal and kids will bound to use them anyway. You wouldnt like your kids to be taught to be religious if you're atheist, the christians wont like their kids to be taught to be atheist. Where do you draw the line?
 

Wibble

In Gadus Speramus
Staff
Joined
Jun 15, 2000
Messages
88,608
Location
Centreback
I dont know any gay people personally. I worked with someone who was gay and I had no idea until he mentioned his boyfriend was ill.

So the bit in bold is confusing. I know it happens, I just don't know how/why. I suspect sexual preference is not binary.
Many gay people have heterosexual relationships before they realise or accept thst they are gay. Probably less so these days I'd guess.
 

Wibble

In Gadus Speramus
Staff
Joined
Jun 15, 2000
Messages
88,608
Location
Centreback
Should be optional. You really cant force these kinds of things on a 10 years old. Even with the best intentions it can go exteremely wrong in practice.
How is telling primary kids that gay and trans people exist and they have relationships just like everyone else going to go extremely wrong?

I think they should educate the parents before they educate a 10 years old. Teach them how to deal with lgbt kids, or how to detect them, what's genuine lgbt and what's just a normal children behavior.
How is this going to happen?

i really dont like how any sensible debate be clustered into full liberal or homophobic. There's always gray area and each culture and upbringing will have their own sets of red lines. Maybe it's lgbt for some, maybe it's religion, maybe for some it's political believes.
It heads this way because if you live in a western democracy then underlying most peoples objections to such kessons about relationships has a relugious and/homophobic origin, even if the bias isn't concious or deliberate. The very sort of societal bias such lessons are aimed to at least partly address.

It's impossible as a parent not to have to actively stir your kids towards something you yourself see as the right things to do. What if they start giving how to safely smoke marijuana, because nowdays it's legal and kids will bound to use them anyway.
Why would drug awareness information be harmful? It wouldn't be promoting use?

You wouldnt like your kids to be taught to be religious if you're atheist, the christians wont like their kids to be taught to be atheist. Where do you draw the line?
These lessons aren't teaching kids how to be gay. As an athiest I'd have had no problem with my son being taught about the major religions as an academic information based subject. In fact I wish it had been an option.
 
Last edited:

Sky1981

Fending off the urge
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
30,003
Location
Under the bright neon lights of sincity
How is telling primary kids that gay and trans people exist and they have relationships just like everyone else going to go extremely wrong?



How is this going to happen?



It heads this way because if you live in a western democracy then underlying most peoples objections to such kessons about relationships has a relugious and/homophobic origin, even if the bias isn't concious or deliberate. The very sort of societal bias such lessons are aimed to at least partly address.



Why would drug awareness information be harmful? It wouldn't be promoting use?



These lessons aren't teaching kids how to be gay. As an athiest I'd have had no problem with my son being taught about the major religions as an academic information based subject. In fact I wish it had been an option.
Well. It's your opinion. If you think it's good for your kids then it's your prerogative. I just dont think 10 years old is the right time for this.
 

Wibble

In Gadus Speramus
Staff
Joined
Jun 15, 2000
Messages
88,608
Location
Centreback
Well. It's your opinion. If you think it's good for your kids then it's your prerogative. I just dont think 10 years old is the right time for this.
I got that but why?

And why not answer my questions? The vibe isn't a valid reason to hold an opinion.
 

esmufc07

Brad
Scout
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
49,858
Location
Lake Jonathan Creek
Well. It's your opinion. If you think it's good for your kids then it's your prerogative. I just dont think 10 years old is the right time for this.
Yes but can you give a reason why? What harm can be caused by telling a 10 year old child that two people of the same sex can be in a relationship?
 

Sky1981

Fending off the urge
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
30,003
Location
Under the bright neon lights of sincity
I got that but why?

And why not answer? The vibe isn't a valid reason to hold an opinion.
I simply don't think they're mature and developed and having enough understanding of these kinds of things.

If it's 18 plus compulsory lesson on lgbt tolerance, education on why they exist and all that I'm up for it.

I got my sex ed when i was 13, and it's mainly talking about why we have hairs down there, and mestruation for girls. 10 is too young for lgbt education.
 

Wibble

In Gadus Speramus
Staff
Joined
Jun 15, 2000
Messages
88,608
Location
Centreback
I simply don't think they're mature and developed and having enough understanding of these kinds of things.
How are they going to.gain an understanding if we pretend such things don't exist?

If it's 18 plus compulsory lesson on lgbt tolerance, education on why they exist and all that I'm up for it.
Way to late. The damage is already mostly done by then.

I got my sex ed when i was 13, and it's mainly talking about why we have hairs down there, and mestruation for girls. 10 is too young for lgbt education.
13 is way too late for basic sex ed as many will already be in puberty.
 

Sky1981

Fending off the urge
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
30,003
Location
Under the bright neon lights of sincity
How are they going to.gain an understanding if we pretend such things don't exist?



Way to late. The damage is already mostly done by then.



13 is way too late for basic sex ed as many will already be in puberty.
I still believe tolerance and acceptance is a value we learn from our parents (at least earlier on, until adolences) predominantly.

I still think it's better to educate the parents of a 10 years old, comparing to actually educating a 10 yo.

But if you disageee. Let's just agree to disagree. I dont want to dwelve in this subject.
 

Wibble

In Gadus Speramus
Staff
Joined
Jun 15, 2000
Messages
88,608
Location
Centreback
I still believe tolerance and acceptance is a value we learn from our parents (at least earlier on, until adolences) predominantly.

I still think it's better to educate the parents of a 10 years old, comparing to actually educating a 10 yo.

But if you disageee. Let's just agree to disagree. I dont want to dwelve in this subject.
Not wanting to delve into difficult subjects just means nothing changes.

And you learn intolerance from your parents just as much as you learn tolerance.

Educating parents is a great idea but almost impossible to achieve. With no guarantee they would talk about it to their kids even if they were educated. People naturally avoid difficult or embarrasing conversations which is why schools should do it.
 

Synco

Lucio's #1 Fan
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
6,438
I don't think you've managed to articulate why exactly thus far, but by all means quote yourself if you think you have.
Because it was impossible so far to fixate any point of contention and go from there. As soon as I tried to challenge something specific, the goalposts were moved, albeit probably not on purpose. I feel with your latest post & your commitment to a stance on the "Alabama" example, there's a basis for further discussion for the first time. But I won't have enough time today, because there's quite a bit to disentangle - both regarding our discussion and the subject as such.
 

Kag

Full Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Messages
18,875
Location
United Kingdom
Primary school seems far too early for any type of sexual education, to be honest.
It isn’t. Feel free to read my posts throughout this thread regarding this.

Pupils as young as Year 4 can begin their period. Pupils develop a sense of attraction before they leave primary school. Pupils are increasingly image-conscious, too. Just last week I had to sit with upset Year 6 children on ‘school photo day’, unwilling to get their photo taken because they had spots on their forehead. Body image is a part of this element of the curriculum.

Primary school sex education isn’t about sex. It’s about identifying similarities and differences, being aware of changes in the body, referring to parts of the body by their proper name and, by the time they leave Year 6, understanding how babies are made. As I said previously, the delivery of Protected Characteristics teaching in schools informs pupils about what they are and that it is illegal to discriminate against them. It’s not teaching children what to be, it’s teaching them to be aware, understanding and tolerant of others.

There is, generally, an almost delusional, misinformed perception of what teaching actually is. For example...

You wouldn't like your kids to be taught to be religious if you're atheist, the christians wont like their kids to be taught to be atheist. Where do you draw the line?
Outside of faith schools, and I’ve never worked in one, I’m yet to encounter a school in which pupils are taught to be religious. RE teaching is an exploration of world faiths. It allows pupils to extend their cultural capital and be aware of the differences in the world around them. Pupils aren’t taught that these tales, scriptures, beliefs and customs are right or wrong. They’re merely made aware of them. So that when the next time a man walks down the street wearing his turban, pupils will understand why that is, instead of thinking he’s a little... ‘weird’.
 

Tarrou

Full Member
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
25,540
Location
Sydney
@Synco actually let's not derail the thread any further. It's going no where.

Apologies if I didn't make my point clearly.
 
Last edited:

esmufc07

Brad
Scout
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
49,858
Location
Lake Jonathan Creek
Good post @Kags. I agree a lot of the issues seem to stem around ignorance of what is actually being taught. On that point perhaps the Govt/DfE/Schools need to be better at communicating.
 

Rado_N

Yaaas Broncos!
Joined
Apr 6, 2009
Messages
110,908
Location
Manchester
I simply don't think they're mature and developed and having enough understanding of these kinds of things.

If it's 18 plus compulsory lesson on lgbt tolerance, education on why they exist and all that I'm up for it.

I got my sex ed when i was 13, and it's mainly talking about why we have hairs down there, and mestruation for girls. 10 is too young for lgbt education.
What exactly is it you think they're going to be teaching?
 

Neil_Buchanan

Cock'd
Joined
Nov 18, 2006
Messages
3,534
Location
Bolton
Seems unnecessary, didn't have anything like this when I was in school (I am 30) and there is not a homophobia problem in society today.
Attitudes of people in my generation are massively liberal on the subject and that only grows by the generation so again I don't know what this is trying to achieve.
I'm not saying all homophobia is gone but that we have issues in society that take many many years to fix, as generations die out the ideas get passed down less and less. That is why we are a better society today with regards to how we treat different people. Racism, sexism, mistreating of disabled and transsexual have all improved massively.
A child born today may one day hear people use racist or homophobic words but they will be part of the overwhelming minority that still use them as these words are not accepted by society. They learn how to be through observing their surroundings which are inclusive and accepting across the board.
 

esmufc07

Brad
Scout
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
49,858
Location
Lake Jonathan Creek
Seems unnecessary, didn't have anything like this when I was in school (I am 30) and there is not a homophobia problem in society today.
Attitudes of people in my generation are massively liberal on the subject and that only grows by the generation so again I don't know what this is trying to achieve.
I'm not saying all homophobia is gone but that we have issues in society that take many many years to fix, as generations die out the ideas get passed down less and less. That is why we are a better society today with regards to how we treat different people. Racism, sexism, mistreating of disabled and transsexual have all improved massively.
A child born today may one day hear people use racist or homophobic words but they will be part of the overwhelming minority that still use them as these words are not accepted by society. They learn how to be through observing their surroundings which are inclusive and accepting across the board.
Two women were beaten up on a London bus a few months ago for holding hands. The very idea there isn’t homophobia in society today is ludicrous.
 

Cascarino

Magnum Poopus
Joined
Jul 17, 2014
Messages
7,615
Location
Wales
Supports
Swansea
Seems unnecessary, didn't have anything like this when I was in school (I am 30) and there is not a homophobia problem in society today.
Attitudes of people in my generation are massively liberal on the subject and that only grows by the generation so again I don't know what this is trying to achieve.
I'm not saying all homophobia is gone but that we have issues in society that take many many years to fix, as generations die out the ideas get passed down less and less. That is why we are a better society today with regards to how we treat different people. Racism, sexism, mistreating of disabled and transsexual have all improved massively.
A child born today may one day hear people use racist or homophobic words but they will be part of the overwhelming minority that still use them as these words are not accepted by society. They learn how to be through observing their surroundings which are inclusive and accepting across the board.
There’s still a massive problem with homophobia in society. If you’re gay or have gay friends and family you should know this. Even if you’ve never met a gay person you should still know this.
 

oates

No one is a match for his two masters degrees
Scout
Joined
May 7, 2012
Messages
27,450
Supports
Arsenal
Homophobic and transphobic hate crimes, including stalking, harassment and violent assault, have more than doubled in England and Wales over five years

The rate of LGBT hate crime per capita rose by 144% between 2013-14 and 2017-18. In the most recent year of data, police recorded 11,600 crimes, more than doubling from 4,600 during this period.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...phobic-hate-crimes-surge-in-england-and-wales
 

Rado_N

Yaaas Broncos!
Joined
Apr 6, 2009
Messages
110,908
Location
Manchester
Homophobic and transphobic hate crimes, including stalking, harassment and violent assault, have more than doubled in England and Wales over five years

The rate of LGBT hate crime per capita rose by 144% between 2013-14 and 2017-18. In the most recent year of data, police recorded 11,600 crimes, more than doubling from 4,600 during this period.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...phobic-hate-crimes-surge-in-england-and-wales
But but

there is not a homophobia problem in society today
 

Tarrou

Full Member
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
25,540
Location
Sydney
Homophobic and transphobic hate crimes, including stalking, harassment and violent assault, have more than doubled in England and Wales over five years

The rate of LGBT hate crime per capita rose by 144% between 2013-14 and 2017-18. In the most recent year of data, police recorded 11,600 crimes, more than doubling from 4,600 during this period.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...phobic-hate-crimes-surge-in-england-and-wales
How on earth is it increasing so much?

That’s quite terrifying
 

SteveJ

all-round nice guy, aka Uncle Joe Kardashian
Scout
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
62,851
'Everything's solved now.'