If Mourinho's authority and ideology were given more backing, would we be challenging?

Siorac · Oct 14, 2019

el3mel said:
I'm talking about pinions being said here. When he was the manager the opinion here was the squad was good enough and 2nd is unacceptable so we needed a manager to free them. Now he is the reason for the current mess we have because he built a crap squad. People need to make their mind.

No, 2nd wasn't unacceptable, that's rewriting history. The issue was that we were playing terrible football and most metrics showed that we're not actually the second best team. It's just the Mourinho fans always dismissed concerns that we actually create fewer chances than anyone in the top 6 and concede more chances than anyone in the top 6.

Our squad was capable of better football than what we played under Mourinho. It's probably still capable of better football than what we're doing now, though contrary to some parrots in this thread, it's actually not the same squad that Mourinho finished second with: Herrera's gone, Matic's legs are completely gone, Young declined even further, Lukaku's gone (though I'll admit, he wasn't going to make us play better football).

Mourinho didn't coach the team well, his signings were mostly failures, his football was dire, and he was getting unhinged long before he "wasn't backed" in 2018, as the Sevilla rant shows.

matt10000 · Oct 14, 2019

roonster09 said:
Highway being downing tools?

The way everyone sees it, Jose was acting like a kid for not getting couple of players, so he was setting the standards, if you don't get what you want then act like a cnut with rotten attitude. We had such a great leader.

If you were given a job based on promises of certain things that would happen and they didn't what would you do? Me, I would look for another job and hand my notice in as getting sacked would not provide me with any money and make it difficult for me to find another job. However, if I was faced with the choice of handing my notice in and getting sweet FA or getting sacked and getting £24million then I may rethink my approach and you have to blame the people who wrote the contract for that.

JPRouve · Oct 14, 2019

matt10000 said:
If you were given a job based on promises of certain things that would happen and they didn't what would you do. Me, I would look for another job and hand my notice in as getting sacked would not provide me with any money and make it difficult for me to find another job. However, if I was faced with the choice of handing my notice in and getting sweet FA or getting sacked and getting £24million then I may rethink my approach and you have to blame the people who wrote the contract for that.

What promises are we talking about?

roonster09 · Oct 14, 2019

matt10000 said:
If you were given a job based on promises of certain things that would happen and they didn't what would you do. Me, I would look for another job and hand my notice in as getting sacked would not provide me with any money and make it difficult for me to find another job. However, if I was faced with the choice of handing my notice in and getting sweet FA or getting sacked and getting £24million then I may rethink my approach and you have to blame the people who wrote the contract for that.

What were those promises? Is this one more alternate reality you guys will come up with now?

Hilarious how Jose downing tools is excuses with silly logic. He was the manager for ManUtd ffs, not some reserve player. He should be setting example.

tomaldinho1 · Oct 14, 2019

el3mel said:
He wasn't a random player though. City were interested in him before. I think this point has been mentioned several times for the reason we bought him. Scouting probably suggested him and Woodward though it would be good getting one over City. It is the most logical thing because Mourinho literally dropped him after the second or third game he started and barely played him there while he was trusting his own "players" as Matic and Lukaku. If he was Mourinho's choice he wouldn't have been dropped for Fellaini very early like that,as he's known to have big patience for his choices.

I don't buy into the whole City are interested therefore we must sign them. It creates a story in the papers but, taking Maguire for example, I would assume most clubs would be sniffing around him given Leicester were open to selling. There's likely never a case where we are competing 1 vs 1 for a player with them because there are so many clubs with money now. Fred to me was a Mou signing - it might not have been his first choice but there's no way Woodward would have signed someone at that price purely off scouting recommendations (I also don't think he ever signs players without a manager's consent).

Mou is known to give patience to players he trusts, not necessarily new players. Look at the players he bought for us, he fell out with half of them. He was just a poor signing.

“Fred will complement our other midfielders' qualities, which we need; his creative brain and passing vision will give us another dimension to our game. I am very happy he is joining our club and I believe our players know how important he can be in our team.” Jose Mourinho

matt10000 · Oct 14, 2019

roonster09 said:
What were those promises? Is this one more alternate reality you guys will come up with now?

Hilarious how Jose downing tools is excuses with silly logic. He was the manager for ManUtd ffs, not some reserve player. He should be setting example.

It was very clear pre-season that Mourinho was not backed.

RedDevilUnited369 · Oct 14, 2019

el3mel said:
He wasn't a random player though. City were interested in him before. I think this point has been mentioned several times for the reason we bought him. Scouting probably suggested him and Woodward though it would be good getting one over City. It is the most logical thing because Mourinho literally dropped him after the second or third game he started and barely played him since then while he was trusting his own "players" as Matic and Lukaku. If he was Mourinho's choice he wouldn't have been dropped for Fellaini very early like that,as he's known to have big patience for his choices.

Fred was dropped because he felt he wasn’t getting cover from defenders, which led to the meltdown on not being backed.

"When the team is defensively stronger and does not need in midfield people that are more about giving some balance to the team than being involved in creating and attacking dynamics - the day we are stronger defensively, I think the horizons for Fred change completely," said Mourinho.

"You have also other players in other clubs that needed time. You have some of them that play even less than what Fred is playing."

Fred was Jose buy and was bought in his words “to compliment the other midfielders”
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....er-united-playing-time-when-defence-is-better

roonster09 · Oct 14, 2019

matt10000 said:
It was very clear pre-season that Mourinho was not backed.

How do you what was promised? How do you even know there was discussion on spending? For all we know Jose was interested only on bigger contract.

el3mel · Oct 14, 2019

Siorac said:
No, 2nd wasn't unacceptable, that's rewriting history. The issue was that we were playing terrible football and most metrics showed that we're not actually the second best team. It's just the Mourinho fans always dismissed concerns that we actually create fewer chances than anyone in the top 6 and concede more chances than anyone in the top 6.

Our squad was capable of better football than what we played under Mourinho. It's probably still capable of better football than what we're doing now, though contrary to some parrots in this thread, it's actually not the same squad that Mourinho finished second with: Herrera's gone, Matic's legs are completely gone, Young declined even further, Lukaku's gone (though I'll admit, he wasn't going to make us play better football).

Mourinho didn't coach the team well, his signings were mostly failures, his football was dire, and he was getting unhinged long before he "wasn't backed" in 2018, as the Sevilla rant shows.

No that is what has been said here. Finishing second far away from City was unacceptable and the squad was good enough for challenging for the league or be very close to City. If you don't remember then it's fine.

If the current squad isn't Mourinho's any more then it shifts to my second point, it still makes zero sense for some to blame him the current mess we have which is also a point being made here even though Ole had an entire summer to spend as much as Mourinho and build his own team. If you are consistent with the idea he managed the team poorly and the current squad isn't his anymore, and we should have played better football under both him and Ole currently, then you aren't meant by my post at all. Your opinion can be appreciated, as it's consistent.

Mourinho did many mistakes here, and I believe he deserved to go by that time, but I'm believe his 2 full seasons were far better than the shower of shite before and after, and will probably stay like that for few upcoming seasons. Regardless of all the backing or the time of his sacking etc that, as I said, don't think it was a wrong move to sack him by that time, as things reached point of no end, but his 2 full seasons aren't getting much appreciation and will probably get more few more years from now.

So we can agree to disagree on such point.

JPRouve · Oct 14, 2019

roonster09 said:
What were those promises? Is this one more alternate reality you guys will come up with now?

Hilarious how Jose downing tools is excuses with silly logic. He was the manager for ManUtd ffs, not some reserve player. He should be setting example.

I always assume that it's one of the "not backed" tell. And I still don't undertand how anyone can argue that a manager who saw a 40% increase in wage bill from 203m to 296m, wasn't backed. I'm probably extremely dumb.

el3mel · Oct 14, 2019

RedDevilUnited369 said:
Fred was dropped because he felt he wasn’t getting cover from defenders, which led to the meltdown on not being backed.

"When the team is defensively stronger and does not need in midfield people that are more about giving some balance to the team than being involved in creating and attacking dynamics - the day we are stronger defensively, I think the horizons for Fred change completely," said Mourinho.

"You have also other players in other clubs that needed time. You have some of them that play even less than what Fred is playing."

Fred was Jose buy and was bought in his words “to compliment the other midfielders”
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....er-united-playing-time-when-defence-is-better

I don't get what you are expecting, him going in public by this time and saying it's not his buy? Makes zero sense actually.

If Fred wasn't good enough to provide cover for defense that he needed to drop him to support defense, he would have never been brought by Mourinho, because, hell, that's pretty much the most important aspect Mourinho looks in his box to box midfielders, to be competent defensively. Why would he buy a player that doesn't even suit his ideas of the football he wants to play then drop him for Fellaini once things go bad? Makes zero sense.

roonster09 · Oct 14, 2019

JPRouve said:
I always assume that it's one of the "not backed" tell. And I still don't undertand how anyone can argue that a manager who saw a 40% increase in wage bill from 203m to 296m, wasn't backed. I'm probably extremely dumb.

Huge increase in wages, 2nd only to City in transfer spend but somehow he wasn't backed. Jose fans also forget that we had such a bloated squad that we had to offload few players.

Also if we believe Atheltic report that Jose signed Fred because he assumed it's Fred or no one, that's sums up the transfer activity post SAF. Sign for the sake of it, no matter if the player is not the right one.

el3mel · Oct 14, 2019

tomaldinho1 said:
I don't buy into the whole City are interested therefore we must sign them. It creates a story in the papers but, taking Maguire for example, I would assume most clubs would be sniffing around him given Leicester were open to selling. There's likely never a case where we are competing 1 vs 1 for a player with them because there are so many clubs with money now. Fred to me was a Mou signing - it might not have been his first choice but there's no way Woodward would have signed someone at that price purely off scouting recommendations (I also don't think he ever signs players without a manager's consent).

Mou is known to give patience to players he trusts, not necessarily new players. Look at the players he bought for us, he fell out with half of them. He was just a poor signing.

“Fred will complement our other midfielders' qualities, which we need; his creative brain and passing vision will give us another dimension to our game. I am very happy he is joining our club and I believe our players know how important he can be in our team.” Jose Mourinho

I don't get the quotes people are posting. Of course he's going to say for the official website or in press that it wasn't his buy? :lol:

That was the same summer Woodward decided to veto Mourinho a defender signing because he thought the options available aren't better than what we have and/or overpriced, what will prevent him from getting into the incoming players as well?

What are those half of the players he bought and fell with? That was Pogba. He didn't fell with anyone either. Just because he sold them or benched some it means he fell out with them.

Again, no one is saying his signings were all big success, or terrible signings were forced on him. We are talking about specific case which is Fred. How can anyone look at Fred and think that's a Mourinho box to box type of midfielder? He's as far away from it as you can get. Why would he go on and sign a player that doesn't suit his ideas of midfielders then drop him after third game? Makes zero sense. The more logical thing is it was a scout suggestion and he said "OK" for it, then didn't like what he's offering and dropped him. No way I can believe a Mourinho scouted this guy and thought he suits his ideas of a box to box midfielder.

matt10000 · Oct 14, 2019

roonster09 said:
How do you what was promised? How do you even know there was discussion on spending? For all we know Jose was interested only on bigger contract.

How do you know he wasn't promised?

Neither of us know and we are speculating. Your speculation is base on your bias against Mourinho. I am basing my speculation on what I saw pre-season and how I interpreted that Mourinho was clearly not happy about the transfer window and lack of backing!

I am not biased for or against Mourinho and rightly or wrongly this is simply how I interpret things:
I think Mourinho did very well to get us to 2nd place and win Eufa with what now everyone seems to agree is a crap squad
I think Mourinho football was not always great to watch but he got us results
I think that had Mourinho been backed he would have kept us in the top 2 or 3 and maybe challenged for the top spot
I think Mourinho deserved to get sacked when he did due to his behaviour and loss of dressing room
I think that if I thought that my superiors were not backing me then if it was a straight choice between handing my notice in for sweet FA or getting £24million for getting sacked I would consider getting sacked
I think that the situation was avoidable had he been backed and we could have been arguing about whether we should sack a manager who took us back to the top in order to win it with more style and panache
I have no idea if Mourinho is a nice person or not as I have never met the fella and I don't really care to
I don't care if he succeeds or not in his next job

JPRouve · Oct 14, 2019

roonster09 said:
Huge increase in wages, 2nd only to City in transfer spend but somehow he wasn't backed. Jose fans also forget that we had such a bloated squad that we had to offload few players.

Also if we believe Atheltic report that Jose signed Fred because he assumed it's Fred or no one, that's sums up the transfer activity post SAF. Sign for the sake of it, no matter if the player is not the right one.

And the weird thing about Fred is that he has never been marketable, so that myth about him being a Woodward commercial signing shouldn't even start which lead to a simple question. If the club was willng to spend 50m on Fred, they were probably willing to spend half of that on Rodri or 50m on Fabinho, why didn't Mourinho or the scouts propose these alternatives who were cheaper or more popular?
I personally believe that they all agreed on Fred, they probably liked the recent tapes that they saw and they also probably liked older tapes of his time with Lucescu because even though Fred is increasingly looking like a transfer failure, he is transfer wasn't outlandish, the fee was surprising but nowadays it's difficult to understand most of them.

And it's important to remember that Lucescu is a brilliant manager and tactician, he made many players look very good.

Withnail · Oct 14, 2019

Amir said:
Not in season 3, they weren't...

I'm not saying I needed to see something complete in season 2. But I think that at this stage you should see a team with a certain style and say 'yeah, I can see how with three better players in certain positions the team will be great'. We weren't there.

This is the point exactly. Mourinho going into season 3 (historically when things go belly up after the high watermark of season 2's performance) could have expected a maximum of 3 top quality players.

Were there 3 players available at the time that would have improved that team to the point where they were hitting 100 pts in a league season?

I don't believe so, which is why, even if by some miracle he stuck around (which he never has), United would still not be challenging for the title.

roonster09 · Oct 14, 2019

matt10000 said:
How do you know he wasn't promised?

Neither of us know and we are speculating. Your speculation is base on your bias against Mourinho. I am basing my speculation on what I saw pre-season and how I interpreted that Mourinho was clearly not happy about the transfer window and lack of backing!

I am not biased for or against Mourinho and rightly or wrongly this is simply how I interpret things:
I think Mourinho did very well to get us to 2nd place and win Eufa with what now everyone seems to agree is a crap squad
I think Mourinho football was not always great to watch but he got us results
I think that had Mourinho been backed he would have kept us in the top 2 or 3 and maybe challenged for the top spot
I think Mourinho deserved to get sacked when he did due to his behaviour and loss of dressing room
I think that if I thought that my superiors were not backing me then if it was a straight choice between handing my notice in for sweet FA or getting £24million for getting sacked I would consider getting sacked
I think that the situation was avoidable had he been backed and we could have been arguing about whether we should sack a manager who took us back to the top in order to win it with more style and panache
I have no idea if Mourinho is a nice person or not as I have never met the fella and I don't really care to
I don't care if he succeeds or not in his next job

roonster09 · Oct 14, 2019

JPRouve said:
And the weird thing about Fred is that he has never been marketable, so that myth about him being a Woodward commercial signing shouldn't even start which lead to a simple question. If the club was willng to spend 50m on Fred, they were probably willing to spend half of that on Rodri or 50m on Fabinho, why didn't Mourinho or the scouts propose these alternatives who were cheaper or more popular?
I personally believe that they all agreed on Fred, they probably liked the recent tapes that they saw and they also probably liked older tapes of his time with Lucescu because even though Fred is increasingly looking like a transfer failure, he is transfer wasn't outlandish, the fee was surprising but nowadays it's difficult to understand most of them.

And it's important to remember that Lucescu is a brilliant manager and tactician, he made many players look very good.

IIRC Fonseca was also very good manager who used Fred as his main midfielder to link up defense and attack. It worked for him as the set up helped him, on the other hand our play is so disjointed we have made every player to look worse.

Also like you said, if club wanted to sign random player then players like Fabinho would have made lot of sense and we were linked with him for last few years and also he played in stronger league and CL.

steffyr2 · Oct 14, 2019

Sad how this thread is pegged to the top of the forum...it's international week and the most interesting topic is about our ex-manager.

tomaldinho1 · Oct 14, 2019

el3mel said:
I don't get the quotes people are posting. Of course he's going to say for the official website or in press that it wasn't his buy?

That was the same summer Woodward decided to veto Mourinho a defender signing because he thought the options available aren't better than what we have and/or overpriced, what will prevent him from getting into the incoming players as well?

What are those half of the players he bought and fell with? That was Pogba. He didn't fell with anyone either. Just because he sold them or benched some it means he fell out with them.

Again, no one is saying his signings were all big success, or terrible signings were forced on him. We are talking about specific case which is Fred. How can anyone look at Fred and think that's a Mourinho box to box type of midfielder? He's as far away from it as you can get. Why would he go on and sign a player that doesn't suit his ideas of midfielders then drop him after third game? Makes zero sense. The more logical thing is it was a scout suggestion and he said "OK" for it, then didn't like what he's offering and dropped him. No way I can believe a Mourinho scouted this guy and thought he suits his ideas of a box to box midfielder.

More that is if he was a signing he wasn't so on board with he would be so specific with his quote. He intros lots of players and obviously it's never negative but to identity the specific areas he rates Fred is a bit more than 'we're happy X has joined our club, he has all the qualities to succeed here'. Sure you could say he's just being positive and towing the line (which Mou never does FYI), we'll never know but there's more truth in that quote as there is in the new revisionist Fred story given Mou actually said it on record.

He fell out massively with Pogba, to a lesser extent Mkhi. Obviously lost faith in Fred, Lindelof and post injury Bailly. Why would Mou only want to sign a box to box midfielder? Surely it's much more likely given Mourinho's insistence on playing two deeper CMs that he signed Fred because he played well in the double pivot fro Shakhtar?

MackRobinson · Oct 14, 2019

I've posted this before, but to add to what @RedDevilUnited369 and @tomaldinho1 posted about Fred:

Mourinho even said they were chasing him since January

And Mourinho has hinted United were battling City for his signature in January by admitting the club were working on a deal a ‘long time ago’. ‘Fred, you know we did it quite a long time ago, we started the process a long time ago,’ admitted Mourinho. ‘We lost Michael Carrick, we think Fred is the kind of player we need to complement the qualities of our midfield players.’

The posters arguing that Fred wasn't his signing are engaged in a willful ignorance that frankly isn't worth debating. He knew about the transfer for a long time, so this notion he had no time to veto it, thinking he wouldn't get another player is utter rubbish. When you have his fans literally ignoring the words he said to give him an excuse there is really no point. The quotes speak louder than this nonsense of it "probably being a scout suggestion". It's complete nonsense.

MackRobinson · Oct 14, 2019

steffyr2 said:
Yep, looks like context! Back into the CL after year #1 of Jose, 81 points and 2nd place after year #2, then the fans preferred to support Ed Woodward in year 3 so we're back down to 66 points and out of the Champions League...This year? who knows what will happen,we're in 12th place and on track for 43 points.

Back into CL only after winning the mickey mouse Europa league in unspectacular fashion due to a 6th place finish in the league. And please don't misleadingly edit my posts. I didn't post that "Jose + Ole" nonsense. Mourinho was 19 points behind the current leaders Liverpool when was sacked.

Place / Pts / Pts behind 1st / CL exit / Manager
7th / 64 / -22 / QF / Moyes
4th / 70 / -17 / -- / LVG
5th / 66 / -16 / Group / LVG
6th / 69 / -17 / -- / Jose
2nd / 81 / -19 / R16 / Jose
6th / 26 (of 51) / -19 / -- / Jose (before sacking)

PL table at the time of his sacking

el3mel · Oct 14, 2019

tomaldinho1 said:
More that is if he was a signing he wasn't so on board with he would be so specific with his quote. He intros lots of players and obviously it's never negative but to identity the specific areas he rates Fred is a bit more than 'we're happy X has joined our club, he has all the qualities to succeed here'. Sure you could say he's just being positive and towing the line (which Mou never does FYI), we'll never know but there's more truth in that quote as there is in the new revisionist Fred story given Mou actually said it on record.

He fell out massively with Pogba, to a lesser extent Mkhi. Obviously lost faith in Fred, Lindelof and post injury Bailly. Why would Mou only want to sign a box to box midfielder? Surely it's much more likely given Mourinho's insistence on playing two deeper CMs that he signed Fred because he played well in the double pivot fro Shakhtar?

The quote you posted was given to the official website mate. Are you predicting he'll say anything different to them on the day we announce players.

He fell only with Pogba, maybe Bailly if we're stretching it. He didn't fell with Mikhi. He kept playing him through shite form during his second season and dropped him very late then when the swap idea arose he sold him for a supposedly better player (back then). Lindelof was a main starter and him and Shaw were about the only 2 positive things of his trash 3rd season. Fred, that's what I'm saying I don't see anything in him to justify him being a Mourinho player. How would Mourinho scout and sign a player to play him as a deep CM when that guy can't cover for defense and is so careless in front of the goal. Doesn't make any kind of sense, eh ? Mourinho's most important aspect in either box to box or deep midfielder is to be competent defensively and Fred is as far away from that as you can get, which was shown by the fact he dropped him after second or third game because he found he doesn't suit his ideas. Can't believe he'll scout a player who doesn't suit his ideas then drop him earlier in the season. He was on a meltdown but not to that degree. Of course he'll also know better than anyone also that playing in Ukraine is different than PL with less intensity ?

This has scouting system all over it. I'm not saying it was forced him, but at the same I very highly doubt he scouted him himself.

Rusholme Ruffian · Oct 14, 2019

Siorac said:
No, 2nd wasn't unacceptable, that's rewriting history. The issue was that we were playing terrible football and most metrics showed that we're not actually the second best team.

Over the course of a season there is really only one metric that matters. But I think you know that really.

Enigma_87 · Oct 14, 2019

roonster09 said:
How do you what was promised? How do you even know there was discussion on spending? For all we know Jose was interested only on bigger contract.

Well, he did sign a new contract before the Summer he wasn't backed in. That either means that he and the club was at the same mind before the Summer came and probably he was promised another huge transfer kitty.

One can only speculate of course, but singing a new contract and then having a row with the board in just couple of month seems very odd turn of events.

roonster09 · Oct 14, 2019

Enigma_87 said:
Well, he did sign a new contract before the Summer he wasn't backed in. That either means that he and the club was at the same mind before the Summer came and probably he was promised another huge transfer kitty.

One can only speculate of course, but singing a new contract and then having a row with the board in just couple of month seems very odd turn of events.

Looks like something you expect from Jose, he was sacked at every club after signing a contract.

tomaldinho1 · Oct 14, 2019

el3mel said:
The quote you posted was given to the official website mate. Are you predicting he'll say anything different to them on the day we announce players.

He fell only with Pogba, maybe Bailly if we're stretching it. He didn't fell with Mikhi. He kept playing him through shite form during his second season and dropped him very late then when the swap idea arose he sold him for a supposedly better player (back then). Lindelof was a main starter and him and Shaw were about the only 2 positive things of his trash 3rd season. Fred, that's what I'm saying I don't see anything in him to justify him being a Mourinho player. How would Mourinho scout and sign a player to play him as a deep CM when that guy can't cover for defense and is so careless in front of the goal. Doesn't make any kind of sense, eh ? Mourinho's most important aspect in either box to box or deep midfielder is to be competent defensively and Fred is as far away from that as you can get, which was shown by the fact he dropped him after second or third game because he found he doesn't suit his ideas. Can't believe he'll scout a player who doesn't suit his ideas then drop him earlier in the season. He was on a meltdown but not to that degree. Of course he'll also know better than anyone also that playing in Ukraine is different than PL with less intensity ?

This has scouting system all over it. I'm not saying it was forced him, but at the same I very highly doubt he scouted him himself.

I feel like you didn't read my reply previously on the quote. Already answered that.

You need to assess it without hindsight. Mou played a system with us of having two deeper lying CMs - we know he was happy with Matic but he was also looking for another because of the fallout with Pogba and Pogba not wanting/being able to play in that role effectively under Mourinho. He tried Herrera next to Matic but ended up pushing him forward a bit given his strengths are more on the pressing, breaking up play side and given we didn't try to renew his contract until the last minute you can assume he wasn't No1 priority for Mou.

It therefore makes sense that his priority when signing a CM wouldn't be someone who could a) play in a double pivot and b) had a more expansive game than Herrera. He might have had 10 targets, he might have only had Fred - we don't know but it's clear to me that Fred would have ticked the boxes at surface level for the role. Plus, add in his pressers where he talks about liking Brazilians in the squad for morale. Your comments are all in hindsight - he's been terrible for us but when he joined he had a reputation for being able to go box to box, having a good passing range and being physically versatile enough for the PL.

If you want to argue Mou was let down by his scouting team or might have rushed given interest from elsewhere, I'd say you might have a decent point there. But to suggest Fred wasn't Mou's signing and that it was Woodward's is massively unlikely in my opinion.

Enigma_87 · Oct 14, 2019

roonster09 said:
Looks like something you expect from Jose, he was sacked at every club after signing a contract.

Actually wasn't this his first sacking since the three occasions before he left on mutual consent? Not that it matters really, but think we were the first club to sack him officially.

el3mel · Oct 14, 2019

tomaldinho1 said:
I feel like you didn't read my reply previously on the quote. Already answered that.

You need to assess it without hindsight. Mou played a system with us of having two deeper lying CMs - we know he was happy with Matic but he was also looking for another because of the fallout with Pogba and Pogba not wanting/being able to play in that role effectively under Mourinho. He tried Herrera next to Matic but ended up pushing him forward a bit given his strengths are more on the pressing, breaking up play side and given we didn't try to renew his contract until the last minute you can assume he wasn't No1 priority for Mou.

It therefore makes sense that his priority when signing a CM wouldn't be someone who could a) play in a double pivot and b) had a more expansive game than Herrera. He might have had 10 targets, he might have only had Fred - we don't know but it's clear to me that Fred would have ticked the boxes at surface level for the role. Plus, add in his pressers where he talks about liking Brazilians in the squad for morale. Your comments are all in hindsight - he's been terrible for us but when he joined he had a reputation for being able to go box to box, having a good passing range and being physically versatile enough for the PL.

If you want to argue Mou was let down by his scouting team or might have rushed given interest from elsewhere, I'd say you might have a decent point there. But to suggest Fred wasn't Mou's signing and that it was Woodward's is massively unlikely in my opinion.

Not really. Mourinho's typical 4-2-3-1 setup with double pivot requires both the CMs to have more defensive duties than offensive to cover for the defense while giving the number 10 the main attacking role of the midfield. Fred doesn't suit that role per se and it's obvious his game is more offensive and pressing up front than playing deep and having more defensive duties. Nothing in this is hindsight. We all know this about Fred before signing him and you yourself mentioned his qualities as good passing range etc but not being able to protect the defense in a double pivot system. That's why Mourinho dropped him quickly because he didn't provide the protection he wanted for the defense in his pivot system and opted for Fellaini instead for his aerial and defensive abilities.

The hindsight was him ending up being crap all around in all areas of the game even up top but the fact he couldn't play the double pivot role of Mourinho's typical system wasn't a surprise considering his known qualities, hence it doesn't make any sense for Mourinho to scout then sign him.

roonster09 · Oct 14, 2019

Enigma_87 said:
Actually wasn't this his first sacking since the three occasions before he left on mutual consent? Not that it matters really, but think we were the first club to sack him officially.

Whatever makes you happy.

Andersonson · Oct 14, 2019

I trust Mourinho more than fans when it comes to football. Our squad was dire when he came and its even worse now.

He was backed to an extent but not enough to challenge. He has players like Martial and Pogba who are fan favorites but rarely perform against him and was sacked. Mourinho was right about the squad, defence, Pogba, Shaw and the board.

But never liked the guy, so im happy he left. But would we be in a better state if he was in 100% control? Oh yes

Siorac · Oct 14, 2019

Rusholme Ruffian said:
Over the course of a season there is really only one metric that matters. But I think you know that really.

But of course other things matter, too. If a team isn't playing well enough to actually outplay its opponents, and it relies on clinical finishing and heroic performances by the goalkeeper, then that 'success' is not sustainable; it doesn't mean the team is headed in the right direction. And in this sense, finishing second is meaningless. We didn't build towards anything. We were unsurprisingly embarassed in the Champions League by a team put together on a fraction of our budget. We were clearly going nowhere.

Siorac · Oct 14, 2019

Andersonson said:
I trust Mourinho more than fans when it comes to football. Our squad was dire when he came and its even worse now.

He was backed to an extent but not enough to challenge. He has players like Martial and Pogba who are fan favorites but rarely perform against him and was sacked. Mourinho was right about the squad, defence, Pogba, Shaw and the board.

But never liked the guy, so im happy he left. But would we be in a better state if he was in 100% control? Oh yes

The bolded statements pretty much directly contradict each other.

Rusholme Ruffian · Oct 14, 2019

Siorac said:
But of course other things matter, too. If a team isn't playing well enough to actually outplay its opponents, and it relies on clinical finishing and heroic performances by the goalkeeper, then that 'success' is not sustainable; it doesn't mean the team is headed in the right direction. And in this sense, finishing second is meaningless. We didn't build towards anything. We were unsurprisingly embarassed in the Champions League by a team put together on a fraction of our budget. We were clearly going nowhere.

We were clearly going nowhere? In his first season we had won the League Cup and the Europa League. During the second season we started like a train, lost our way a bit, but finished a very creditable 2nd largely with a bunch of players that only now people are starting to understand are not actually up to much. During that season we were without Zlatan - who had been excellent the year before - and our star midfielder was doing his best to be as disruptive as possible. I'm not going to get dragged into a debate about a topic that not one single person in this thread can be completely sure about, but it's not much of a stretch to argue that if Mourinho had been properly backed in that summer - and by backed I mean allowed to get rid of the toxic Pogba and replace him properly - plus sign Maguire (who we ended up spending more on the following summer) and at least one of Willian or Perisic (both still better than our current wing options) then we would have been a heck of a lot closer to challenging than we currently are. That was the kind of level of investment that was required to get closer to City.

matt10000 · Oct 14, 2019

Siorac said:
But of course other things matter, too. If a team isn't playing well enough to actually outplay its opponents, and it relies on clinical finishing and heroic performances by the goalkeeper, then that 'success' is not sustainable; it doesn't mean the team is headed in the right direction. And in this sense, finishing second is meaningless. We didn't build towards anything. We were unsurprisingly embarassed in the Champions League by a team put together on a fraction of our budget. We were clearly going nowhere.

That points tally would have won the prem league in several previous seasons, so if City hadn’t cheated with their monopoly money and we had won the league with that amount of points would it have been meaningless?

RedDevilCanuck · Oct 14, 2019

Watch him come back Zidane style if this shit continues!

tomaldinho1 · Oct 14, 2019

el3mel said:
Not really. Mourinho's typical 4-2-3-1 setup with double pivot requires both the CMs to have more defensive duties than offensive to cover for the defense while giving the number 10 the main attacking role of the midfield. Fred doesn't suit that role per se and it's obvious his game is more offensive and pressing up front than playing deep and having more defensive duties. Nothing in this is hindsight. We all know this about Fred before signing him and you yourself mentioned his qualities as good passing range etc but not being able to protect the defense in a double pivot system. That's why Mourinho dropped him quickly because he didn't provide the protection he wanted for the defense in his pivot system and opted for Fellaini instead for his aerial and defensive abilities.

The hindsight was him ending up being crap all around in all areas of the game even up top but the fact he couldn't play the double pivot role of Mourinho's typical system wasn't a surprise considering his known qualities, hence it doesn't make any sense for Mourinho to scout then sign him.

Not really. Mourinho's typical 4-2-3-1 setup with double pivot requires both the CMs to have more defensive duties than offensive to cover for the defense while giving the number 10 the main attacking role of the midfield - agree, we set up on the counter under him so this is logical. Fred played in this system so also logical he'd be bought to play in the same position.

Fred doesn't suit that role per se and it's obvious his game is more offensive and pressing up front than playing deep and having more defensive duties - Pure hindsight. Look at every single Fred article pre United. B2B midfielder, DM, Holding midfielder. Role model? Fernandinho. Dunga apparently had a big influence on him as a mentor. He scored some goals and developed a reputation for being able to carry the ball forward but he was always deployed in a defensive role.

We all know this about Fred before signing him and you yourself mentioned his qualities as good passing range etc but not being able to protect the defense in a double pivot system when? I said he played well in the double pivot system for Shakhtar. Please don't make things up to suit your narrative.

That's why Mourinho dropped him quickly because he didn't provide the protection he wanted for the defense in his pivot system and opted for Fellaini instead for his aerial and defensive abilities - he was dropped for that reason but that's the whole point, Mou was buying a player he thought would be good enough in that role and was mistaken. Without the hindsight it actually makes perfect sense why Mourinho wanted him and why he signed him because on paper here was a dynamic player who had proved he could play in the double pivot but also be integral to bringing the ball out and building attacks.

I see zero reason why anyone would believe he's not Mou's signing

tenpoless · Oct 14, 2019

We'd only be challening if the board completely support him. Which means to sell players He doesn't like, buy short term solutions that only makes sense for Jose Mourinho's tactics and to put up with his tantrums.

Otherwise

'Out in zi grouf fes'
Every wall is a door meltdown

Andersonson · Oct 14, 2019

Siorac said:
The bolded statements pretty much directly contradict each other.

Selling Lukaku, Sanchez, Smalling and letting Herrera go was Mourinho?

Siorac · Oct 14, 2019

matt10000 said:
That points tally would have won the prem league in several previous seasons, so if City hadn’t cheated with their monopoly money and we had won the league with that amount of points would it have been meaningless?

Almost never actually. Only in 15/16 and in 2011 before that. Before that... I'm not even sure, 2001 I think.

If Mourinho's authority and ideology were given more backing, would we be challenging?

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can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate

Hercule Poirot of the scouting world

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Hercule Poirot of the scouting world

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can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate

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Hercule Poirot of the scouting world

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can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate

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Hercule Poirot of the scouting world

Hercule Poirot of the scouting world

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Hercule Poirot of the scouting world

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Hercule Poirot of the scouting world

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Quite dreamy - blue eyes, blond hair, tanned skin

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No 6-pack, just 2Pac

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