Film Joker (2019)

sullydnl

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We've entered an era where opinions on films are debated more, it seems. People care more nowadays when the general consensus of a film doesn't fit their own thoughts, for whatever reason. Therefore the perception is it's more polarised. The reality is it's the same as before with a broad range of opinions, but now we care more about ones that differ to us.

It's a bit strange really the rhetoric over this film. First the massive hype, then the big backlash. All the weird detailed theories about what it means when there isn't really that much depth to it. The same basic story has been done to death in film since Taxi Driver, but without the joker. We all have so many preconceptions about what this movie about a comic book character was before we even watched it. The skeptic in me thinks it's just a really good marketing campaign at work, but it's probably more than that.
Most of the critics I've seen give it a negative review didn't actually have a problem with the morality of the film, instead criticising it for simply being a bit ho-hum. Which really does make me question the authenticity of the supposed moral panic that has done such a good job of hyping and selling this product. From what I've seen there's been a hell of a lot more talk about that moral criticism than actual examples of it, all to the film's benefit. It's great publicity for the film, it gives it the appearance of being transgressive and the more standard criticism of the actual filmmaking gets buried beneath the noise.

If there is any more to it than that though, I suspect it has less to do with what's in the film (which as you say is all well-trodden ground at this point) and more to do with the audience the film is aimed at. Some people might have a certain perception of what the audience for this film will be like and (rather unfairly and condescendingly) fear they can't be trusted to read or react to the film properly. Though as I say, I tend to lean towards the idea of it all being hype.
 
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yumtum

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When was the last time there was such a divide between the audience response (mostly very positive) and the critic response (Very mixed according to RT and metacritic)? A lot of the negative reviews i've read tend to always have political undertones to them. If you think it sucks then that's fine but the whole incel/white supremacist angle has been really weird when there's nothing in the film at all to suggest a connection.
Its 2019, white men are not allowed to have problems - and if you do, dont talk about them because you'll get the "white privilege" rhetoric thrown at you, which if you think about it, is dangerous in itself.

Watched the Joker on my birthday, it's weird how I connected with him, had the same childhood (not sure if I was adopted or not) and despondent throughout my teens and a lot of my adulthood, and that's the reason I think it's a brilliant film, there will be a ton of people (of all races, sexual orientation and gender) who grow up under these circumstances, thankfully most don't turn out as the Joker - but the reality is that you could, and the film makes you realise the thin line between surviving your past or embracing the turmoil within.

Phoenix I thought was amazing in his portrayal, a lot of critics are about the character of Joker, and considering this is an origin story it's somewhat agreeable - it's been mentioned that this Joker may just be the catalyst for the villainous mastermind we've all known, which isn't far fetched with the movement Arthur started.
 

Volumiza

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A lot of the negative reviews i've read tend to always have political undertones to them. If you think it sucks then that's fine but the whole incel/white supremacist angle has been really weird when there's nothing in the film at all to suggest a connection.
I agree Irwin99, in fact I enjoyed it as a standalone piece (my least favourite parts were the shoehorning in of the Wayne characters) and viewed it solely as a film on one mans struggle with mental illness and his twisted descent into crime, very much like Taxi Driver and King of Comedy.
 

Mockney

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59 is too low, tbf... It's closer to a 69 or 70, IMO. While it may not be original, or nearly as deep as it wants to be, it is a well made, very well acted, and fantastically scored film.

For all my nitpicking, I still gave it a healthy 7/10!... It's just the unreserved hyperbole that rankles...

I got the sense that reaction was very mixed among reviewers but audiences mostly loved it.

59 on Metacritic critical reviews , 9.3 out of 10 in audience score

68% vs 89 % on RT
The idea that the aggregated scores of 50+ disparate independent film reviewers, whose entire lives are spent professionally watching films, are somehow less legitimate than the easily compromised online “audience” polls on two websites, that have frequently been used to politically spam films considered “too SJW” by a very particular and very online demographic, is a ridiculous opinion, tbf...

And the kind of one only ever used when comic book films aren’t as universally loved as people want them to be... People who really like (or hate) a film are always more likely to up (or down) vote it in a poll... whereas people who are indifferent are, well, indifferent! It doesn’t necessarily mean that “audiences” universally loved it on a greater scale than critics did... merely that those who did went home and upvoted it on the Internet.

68% on RT is pretty much right bang where it should be. Though I’d personally give it a bump into the early-70s.
 
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Rooney in Paris

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Something that's really doing my nut in, everyone I speak to keeps talking about how phoenix is an "underated" actor.

1) who actually underates him? He's given nothing but praise even before joker. 2) if everyone thinks you're underated, you're not underated.
Yeah he's not underrated. He's been nominated for 3 oscars and BAFTAs and has a Golden Globe. He usually doesn't do films with this much exposure which might explain the "underrated" comment, but it's pretty daft (though I'm not sure I've read it that much in fairness).
 

SquishyMcSquish

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Half the critics who don't like the joker have been chatting absolute shite about incel culture and how the film glorifies violence and is somehow dangerous. As if anybody should give a feck what those pompous crusties have to say on absolutely anything.
 

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Half the critics who don't like the joker have been chatting absolute shite about incel culture and how the film glorifies violence and is somehow dangerous. As if anybody should give a feck what those pompous crusties have to say on absolutely anything.
Yeah I'd say most of them probably havent even watched the film because if they did they would see that there is nothing in it at all. It's all bollocks.
 

Gambit

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Just watched You were never really here again. It's literally a mirror image film (albeit shorter)
 

The Cat

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Watched it today. Hard to describe it's a very good movie but so dark and unnerving. For such a mostly slow paced film it got me gripped and went quickly. Amazing acting and you come out scratching your head and thinking about lots of scenes. A must watch whatever you think at the end. They have said no sequel but I think it really could do with one to see what Phoenix can do being full on I imagine he could scare the shit out of me even more.
 

AaronRedDevil

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Things like what, if you don’t mind me asking?
That scene were he's taking notes in the comedy bar wasn't real, plus since you know he's been alone in all the scenes with the woman he was with. And Maybe he actually did ask for the gun he got from his work friend. There's a lot to dissect with that movie hah.
 
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Gambit

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That scene were he's taking notes in the comedy bar wasn't real, plus since you know he's been alone in all the scenes with the woman he was with. And Maybe he actually did ask for the gun he got from his work friend. There's a lot to dissect with that movie hah.
Disagree, say where he was taking notes it was real, just he so disassociated from it all he doesn't understand hence the out of place laughing and the generalised notes, like "jokes about sex make people laugh" as opposed to understanding what it was that was funny,
 

AaronRedDevil

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Disagree, say where he was taking notes it was real, just he so disassociated from it all he doesn't understand hence the out of place laughing and the generalised notes, like "jokes about sex make people laugh" as opposed to understanding what it was that was funny,
That's true. But the part I think why it's fake is that, no one is paying attention to him. It would be pretty distracting and maybe annoying to the people around him. He's seem to be laughing completely off key. But it could be either way.

Btw do you think the Wayne confrontation scene in the theater is real?
 

cesc's_mullet

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Thought it was a very good movie. Better than I thought it would be.

I'd have preferred it if it was a complete stand alone film that has nothing to do with Batman whatsoever though.
 

cesc's_mullet

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Disagree, say where he was taking notes it was real, just he so disassociated from it all he doesn't understand hence the out of place laughing and the generalised notes, like "jokes about sex make people laugh" as opposed to understanding what it was that was funny,
"Sexy jokes are always funny"
 

cesc's_mullet

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The best scene IMO what what his boss was berating him, and he was just standing there tuning him out with that grin on his face that slowly turned from maniacal to broken/sad.
 

Sky1981

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Looking forward to seeing it a second time this coming weekend. Thoroughly enjoyed it first time. Only gripes would be a slight lack of originality and a joker who wasn't commanding. Still, looking forward to watching it one more time on the hall before it goes.
He wasnt supposed to be commanding in here. He's a freak outcast to begin with. I thought he's commanding in his acting enough to gripe us through the 2 hours movie. It seems that it's a solo JP performance and everything else seems surreal.
 

amolbhatia50k

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He wasnt supposed to be commanding in here. He's a freak outcast to begin with. I thought he's commanding in his acting enough to gripe us through the 2 hours movie. It seems that it's a solo JP performance and everything else seems surreal.
I don't think Phoenix can be that commanding as Joker anyway. And I agree with others - this fellow doesn't look capable of being as intimidating and intelligent as The Joker. It's an excellent film - but being hugely derivative, and the protagonist as the Joker lacking that fearful presence, stand as drawbacks for me.

Like I said, I'm still going for a second watch tomorrow before it leaves the halls.
 

Relfy

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I watched it at the weekend and really enjoyed it. I'm no film critic by any stretch but some of the negative comments seem harsh. We all know this isn't a 'true original' film, but I think the character was portrayed well and the way many would have imagined, i.e. outcast and very troubled background. Good film.
 

Sterling Archer

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Half the critics who don't like the joker have been chatting absolute shite about incel culture and how the film glorifies violence and is somehow dangerous. As if anybody should give a feck what those pompous crusties have to say on absolutely anything.
That and they have an exceptionally frustrating lack of understanding or appreciation for mental health. They are stuck in the political statement and originality and all in some pompous way. The plots driven by a graphic novel on the Joker...I don't know what they expected. The focus in their reviews of class wars misses the more significant relationship between bully and bullied, especially the extent to which mental illness has been ignored, ostracised or dismissed.

Thought it was a brilliant performance and film. Really frightening portrayal of the madman that is the Joker.
 

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That and they have an exceptionally frustrating lack of understanding or appreciation for mental health. They are stuck in the political statement and originality and all in some pompous way. The plots driven by a graphic novel on the Joker...I don't know what they expected. The focus in their reviews of class wars misses the more significant relationship between bully and bullied, especially the extent to which mental illness has been ignored, ostracised or dismissed.

Thought it was a brilliant performance and film. Really frightening portrayal of the madman that is the Joker.
Martin Scorsese on mental health

vs

The Joker/the guy who directed the Hangover


Please just watch more movies.
 

Sterling Archer

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Martin Scorsese on mental health

vs

The Joker/the guy who directed the Hangover


Please just watch more movies.
Don't know what you're on about. I'm not talking about other filmmakers.

But if you're referring to reviews thanks for proving the point - mental health is more complex than you seem to think. It's much more than just ocd.
 

Sweet Square

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Don't know what you're on about. I'm not talking about other filmmakers.

But if you're referring to reviews thanks for proving the point - mental health is more complex than you seem to think. It's much more than just ocd.
:houllier:

Of course it isn't but mental health isn't putting on clown make up and shooting bankers. The Joker character is tied to a radiator and beaten as a child and finds out he is also adopted , this film depiction of mental health is just lazy and stereotypical(Unlike the example I posted above).The idea that film take on mental health(I'm pretty sure Todd Phillips has said nothing on the subject)is too intelligent for critics, is silly.

The most interesting thing about this film is the empty class war stuff.
 

baskinginthesun

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:houllier:

Of course it isn't but mental health isn't putting on clown make up and shooting bankers. The Joker character is tied to a radiator and beaten as a child and finds out he is also adopted , this film depiction of mental health is just lazy and stereotypical(Unlike the example I posted above).The idea that film take on mental health(I'm pretty sure Todd Phillips has said nothing on the subject)is too intelligent for critics, is silly.

The most interesting thing about this film is the empty class war stuff.
To be fair, he was already suffering before that. In fact, I think the movie alludes that he has suffered his entire life. The clown make up is just him enjoying who he really is.
 

Sterling Archer

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:houllier:

Of course it isn't but mental health isn't putting on clown make up and shooting bankers. The Joker character is tied to a radiator and beaten as a child and finds out he is also adopted , this film depiction of mental health is just lazy and stereotypical(Unlike the example I posted above).The idea that film take on mental health(I'm pretty sure Todd Phillips has said nothing on the subject)is too intelligent for critics, is silly.

The most interesting thing about this film is the empty class war stuff.
First, your opinion on a movie is your opinion. I'm tolerant of films to a great degree. Ive enjoyed the campiest , goofiest films as much as any classic. That is to say, I don't proclaim to be some nuanced film critic.

My feeling on the bad reviews I'm reading is they are missing a key perspective. As @baskinginthesun points out, the joker's creation is really the climax of the film. He isn't any sort of embodiment of the comic villain until the last fifteen, twenty minutes. I'm sure stemming from personal experience and thus empathy I was struck with little things throughout the film that touch give a bit more weight to the fact that mental health isn't just genetic. Early on perhaps we think Arthur's issues stem from the fact he's son of a clinically ill mother. But really there's the child abuse at heart...which even today is probably an aspect not understood well enough, certainly by laypeople (ie non child pyschiatrists). The being beaten up by kids and the wall st types is blatant. But I was moved by the multiple scenes in the clown agency. Ostracised in that group. The weirdo. I empathized with that. And I'm sure many who have felt strained with cliques and bullies at school could relate too. Now, not all of them go on to become joker. But you know what - they do go on to shoot up schools. They go on to join Isis.

Take the latter for example. I think it was Denmark police started a wildly 'radical' approach to counter terrorism. They tried to understand it as a mental health issue as opposed to the socio-political beliefs. Upon having leads on troubled immigrant youth, bullied and left out of their schools or neighborhoods, and partnered them with community leaders than integrated them into society. That prevented and even reversed their trajectories. The FBI is doing much the same with great success.

A lot of folks may not classify these as mental health. But I'm of the opinion they should. Emphasis on opinion. Because sure not all of these individuals become anarchy leading criminals or even school shooters. Many do things like develop eating disorders. Or cutting. Or doing drugs. Killing themselves. Hurting others.

And the joker represented in this film? He's an extreme. I mean, it's an iconic comic supervillain afterall. But the descent from child abuse victim to ill treated and isolated is taken to the madman level because that's what he is...a psycho character. But the subtle moments earlier are there. That public humiliation on the TV show of his bad standup versus in his own head his voice is clear (that first imagined scene on the show). It was reminiscent to me of Look Me In the Eye, the complex inner thoughts of an autistic boy growing up misunderstood and maligned. Just so many moments that came together. And the way a comic book is an exaggeration of reality, isn't that the perfect joker? All these issues compounded into one fecked up killer clown?

And that's before the socio political stuff...which Arthur even dismisses as not his personal cause. But it matters. It's at the heart of the environment that created him.
 

Sweet Square

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First, your opinion on a movie is your opinion.
Well..........yeah.

My feeling on the bad reviews I'm reading is they are missing a key perspective. As @baskinginthesun points out, the joker's creation is really the climax of the film. He isn't any sort of embodiment of the comic villain until the last fifteen, twenty minutes. I'm sure stemming from personal experience and thus empathy I was struck with little things throughout the film that touch give a bit more weight to the fact that mental health isn't just genetic. Early on perhaps we think Arthur's issues stem from the fact he's son of a clinically ill mother. But really there's the child abuse at heart...which even today is probably an aspect not understood well enough, certainly by laypeople (ie non child pyschiatrists). The being beaten up by kids and the wall st types is blatant. But I was moved by the multiple scenes in the clown agency. Ostracised in that group. The weirdo. I empathized with that. And I'm sure many who have felt strained with cliques and bullies at school could relate too.
Which bad reviews ? I've seen some shite about how ''dangerous'' the film could be and bizarre liberal outrage but I wouldn't say critics has missed the mental illness aspect(Just like the class element, I don't think the mental illness angle is a choice the director made at all).

I would say the early signs we get are like using a sledgehammer to hit a nail. As I've mentioned the - tied to a radiator and beaten as a child plus the adoption angle, isn't that quite blatant ? The weirdo in the group stuff is fine but its just clown taxi driver and if it works for people then fine but it didn't for me appear to be saying anything new or interesting on mental illness.

Now, not all of them go on to become joker. But you know what - they do go on to shoot up schools. They go on to join Isis.

A lot of folks may not classify these as mental health. But I'm of the opinion they should. Emphasis on opinion. Because sure not all of these individuals become anarchy leading criminals or even school shooters. Many do things like develop eating disorders. Or cutting. Or doing drugs. Killing themselves. Hurting others.
.
Yeah I wouldn't classify them as mental ill and I think it dangerous we are doing so. This is worth a watch


Young white men aren't shooting up synagogues because they are mental ill but because they are neo nazis(They literally tells us the reasons in their manifestos).

Take the latter for example. I think it was Denmark police started a wildly 'radical' approach to counter terrorism. They tried to understand it as a mental health issue as opposed to the socio-political beliefs. Upon having leads on troubled immigrant youth, bullied and left out of their schools or neighborhoods, and partnered them with community leaders than integrated them into society. That prevented and even reversed their trajectories. The FBI is doing much the same with great success.
I don't know about the Danish police but The FBI isn't going anything about it.

- https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...lence-rise-fbi-slow-call-it-domestic-n1039206

- https://theintercept.com/2019/03/23/black-identity-extremist-fbi-domestic-terrorism/

- https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...1cf86e-6d23-11e9-a66d-a82d3f3d96d5_story.html


And that's before the socio political stuff...which Arthur even dismisses as not his personal cause. But it matters. It's at the heart of the environment that created him.
Yeah this is the most interesting part of the film.
 
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Sterling Archer

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Yeah I wouldn't classify them as mental ill and I think it dangerous we are doing so. This is worth a watch

Young white men aren't shooting up synagogues because they are mental ill but because they are neo nazis(They literally tells us the reasons in their manifestos).
This is what I mean. The Aurora CO shooting is not the same as these...should not be mixing and matching to make a point. Like I say, it's a complex issue.

Sigh. Mate, this is not at all what I'm talking about. It's apples and chicken korma.
Yeah this is the most interesting part of the film.
Funnily enough, it's the least interesting part of the film for me. Literal and obvious. Explains our difference in what captivated us in this film versus not. The movie is a lot more about things that interested me and quite thin on what interested you.
 

Sweet Square

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Sigh. Mate, this is not at all what I'm talking about. It's apples and chicken korma.

You said the FBI is doing similar to the Danish police ? I was just pointing out there is no evidence of this .

This is what I mean.

Funnily enough, it's the least interesting part of the film for me. Literal and obvious. Explains our difference in what captivated us in this film versus not. The movie is a lot more about things that interested me and quite thin on what interested you.
Yeah I guess so.
 
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Sterling Archer

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You said the FBI is doing similar to the Danish police ? I was just pointing out there is no evidence of this .
It's not as publicized as all the stuff about the radical nationalism is, which is probably because the focus on Trump himself. But this has been a novel approach by the FBI and there are a couple of good documentaries and specials that came out (one called FBI on USA network I think? a couple years back) profiling the work they were doing. Here's just a quick overview statement of intent by the agency in that regard:

https://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/keeping-america-secure-in-the-new-age-of-terror

https://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/confronting-the-rise-of-domestic-terrorism-in-the-homeland

The domestic terror I'm thinking of is the one similar to Denmark. Where ISIS targets immigrants.

As I said, whether you, I or others are comfortable with calling this mental health is just opinion at this point. But there is scientific work being done identifying the psychological effects as we move into this rather new digital - social media era.