And that’s how SAF have always operated. Mostly experienced players in the team with a sprinkling of youngsters to get them adapted.
If Mourinho's authority and ideology were given more backing, would we be challenging?
- Thread starter DeGea
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
I read this and thought it was funny and should post it here. You can’t deny the bias towards Jose.
When Jose does it, it’s parking the bus and boring football. When others do it, it’s a blueprint for beating City
https://www.skysports.com/football/...anchester-city-recent-losses-reveal-blueprint
When Jose does it, it’s parking the bus and boring football. When others do it, it’s a blueprint for beating City
https://www.skysports.com/football/...anchester-city-recent-losses-reveal-blueprint
The bolded parts are often glossed over but primarily where the "He wasn't fully backed" arguments fall to shite. There is no such thing as "fully backed" for football clubs with budgets. It's just a vague form of excuse-mongering that ignores the financial realities of United (or any normally run club). It's slightly baffling that some fans think a) United can make 100M signings every window without selling players or reducing the wage bill b) Jose Mourinho should have been allowed to continually miss his own targets, make poor signings, and/or undermine the owners without any repercussions. It makes me wonder if those saying he wasn't backed have ever worked in jobs where management had budget constraints (which is most adult jobs)...
However, everyone on here agrees that
a. Squad is crap
b. Squad requires rebuild
c. We are one of richest clubs in world
We could have sold to buy if needed. I would be surprised if behind the scenes Mourinho had discussed which players could go including Pogba and Martial at the time which would have brought in a few quid. I suspect he was told Pogba couldn’t go which SAF would never have put up with star player with marketing revenue or not.
So at that point maybe Mourinho had no authority. I am only speculating but pre season mourinho was not a happy chappy and probably believed he could not fire and hire even if breaking even.
One can argue that his job is to make the best of what you have got but maybe that wasn’t how he was sold the job
Last edited:
That's oversimplifying it. We know all of the stories and exchanges with Pogba because we're on here discussing them all day so trust me when I say he wasn't let go merely because of Pogba. The major disagreement wasn't just that he wanted to sell Pogba and Martial, it was he wanted to pawn them off to fund spending on veteran players guaranteeing anything we built would have a life cycle of 2 years. There was huge divide on what road to take going forward and Pogba was just a part of the equation not the main variable
Another disagreement came from his poor record in the transfer market. He wanted huge money to replace flops like he wasnt the one who bought them. There was no end in sight with how much this guy would ask for. Once he started asking for 70m for older players like Willian it became too much. Thirdly there was a growing unrest among the fans and legends on the playing philosophy. That's without even addressing his blatant disrespect of the club after that Sevilla tie making him massively unpopular at the club. There were many roadbumps in his time here that all amounted to his dismissal. It wasn't just Pogba. You may be forgiven for thinking so because Pogba is the only problem the papers and skysports want to talk about
Last edited:
Iirc, at the beginning of that year, there were issues with both Pogba and Martial. Both of those players had hordes of posters who were incensed if those players were treated with anything except kid gloves. Both sets of fans aren't as vocal now, presumably because they won.
Second paragraph? That's been discussed over and over. Once you decide that league position is unimportant, and that a cl spot doesn't matter, and that the trophies won don't matter, this is what you're left with -- complaining about a post match press conference.
The post was really more about listing the factors leading up to his dismissal so I don't really care to argue about the propiety of each and every one of them. We can have that discussion another time..preferably never
We need to distinguish between getting all the financial backing and having a lot of money spent for you the way the Glazers did for Jose. The OPs intention is to consider what happens if Jose were given a blank cheque book. What actually happened is he got a gift card valued at however many million dollars to a specific store. Same with LVG, who thought United could buy whomever they pleased. Turns out you can't use a Woodward card at anywhere but the places he chooses. It's not that subtle a difference. Anyone that's had a frustration at getting a gift card as opposed to cash on a holiday can surely appreciate it.
You have perfectly illustrated what I highlighted in the previous post.
1) Being one of the most valuable clubs in the world does not mean United can spend endlessly in every window to fix mistakes. Given United are a publically traded company there is even greater pressure to work within financial constraints (ie. shareholders). Unless you are City, PSG, or playing FIFA/Football Manager budget constraints are real.
2) Selling a player requires agreement from 3 parties: the selling club, the purchasing cub, and the player. This notion that it is easy to sell players, especially those who are underperforming, isn't based in reality and ignores difficulty in getting all three parties to agree to the sale. Again only in FIFA/Football Manager is it a straightforward process.
3) I don't see the use in inventing hypothetical scenarios to absolve managers of blame. Using "speculating", "probably", and/or "maybe" as a basis to form an argument that manager XYZ wasn't backed fully (whatever the hell that means) strikes me as a cop out.
Thoughtful post. I was going to post something but this one distracted me. Anyway yea, we would be higher up, but Jose was never going to be backed by the fungi in the boardroom
good post.
Not sure why you are even reading and replying to this thread if you don’t accept speculation as if you discard speculation and hypothetical from a thread that is entitled ‘if....(such and such scenario) would (such and such have happened) then there would be nothing to post.
You completely missed the point of #3
Regardless that wasn't the main point of the post. The main point is United do not have an endless pile of cash to spend on transfers and selling players isn't straightforward.
I guess the good news is that now fans will learn to be happy that the club isn't relegated. Forget the previous complaints that we're only winning minor trophies, only winning the cl group stage, and don't look exciting.
Buying and selling especially isn't easy when you don't know what you're doing, and utd seems really bad at it.
The guy wanted to get rid of Martial for Perisic.
Matic was his choice at £40m when Herrera just had a POTY season.
didn’t bother ease Sanchez into the team, just removed the inform Martial and played Sanchez at all cost. What kind of man management is that?
complain about not having a left sided ball playing CB, sell Blind who played brilliant at CB in the competition he brags about winning.
I don’t blame Woodward for not wanting to spend £100m on Willian and Perisic. Not signing Maguire was a error though. Mourinho’s response to that was beyond childish. His mood the whole 18/19 pre season was toxic, and he basically threw the season away to prove a point.
Matic was his choice at £40m when Herrera just had a POTY season.
didn’t bother ease Sanchez into the team, just removed the inform Martial and played Sanchez at all cost. What kind of man management is that?
complain about not having a left sided ball playing CB, sell Blind who played brilliant at CB in the competition he brags about winning.
I don’t blame Woodward for not wanting to spend £100m on Willian and Perisic. Not signing Maguire was a error though. Mourinho’s response to that was beyond childish. His mood the whole 18/19 pre season was toxic, and he basically threw the season away to prove a point.
I have never said that utd have a bottomless pot of cash ever.
Sorry I missed your point completely it was just when you quoted me you bolded the bits speculation and hypothetical - you must have bolded the wrong bits by mistake
Last edited:
The good news is the Mourinho isn't the manager anymore and United is partly bad at selling players because of all the underperforming players Mourinho brought in.
I bolded the correct parts. Just because United is the richest club in the world (which you wrote), it doesn't mean they can continually pay high transfer fees and wages for players window after window. At some point the manager has to maximize the talent he has on the squad and Mourinho seems incapable of that.
I would argue that he actually did with coming in 2nd with what he had. 2nd and far behind the high flying City wasn’t good enough. Hence, him asking for more reinforcements to improve.
At the time i didn't get it but now i'm awake, i guess. In his first season the club signed one of the best players in France, Italy, Germany and an expensive young centre back. In the second season another centre back, a premier league winning midfielder and top of of that a proven goalscorer who United overpaid for. Half the season through one of the best players from the Bundesliga who flopped dearly was exchanged for one of the best players in England.
Because most of them didn't live up to the hype so i get why Mourinho wanted most of them gone. City, Real or Barca could've done it, but you still would have to question why it all went so wrong. It could've been done so much more with the new players and more importantly with the money. All around the globe clubs sign good players for under 10 mil. each, only at United the cheaper ones come for about 20 mil and most of them turn out to be shit, talk about mismanagement.
I like Mourinho as a person and enjoyed his pressers till the end but the job he's done wasn't one of a special one.
Till today i don't get why he threw it all away. At the beginning he said that 'ancient clubs are for the best managers' has to be a joke what happened.
What do you personally think about him trying to revert to his preferred squad of veterans being the spine of the team. Would you say we should have gone along with fielding a team of Willians and Perisic's when Jose demanded it?
I said we are one of the richest clubs in the world which is true.
I didn’t say there were unlimited resources. In fact I said that the sale of Pogba and Martial could have been used.
You said “I don't see the use in inventing hypothetical scenarios” in point 3 which apparently I misunderstood by pointing out that if you discard speculation and hypothetical from a thread that is entitled ‘if....(such and such scenario) would (such and such have happened) then there would be nothing to post.
Jose wasn’t at all backed after steering the club to 2 trophies and then a 2nd place finish, our best by a mile since SAF retired.
More stupid still was the club gave him a big new contract and then decided shortly after that his ”philosophy” did not align with the club’s ethos. Had the feckers done any homework before employing he or LVG?
The incompetence is staggering.
More stupid still was the club gave him a big new contract and then decided shortly after that his ”philosophy” did not align with the club’s ethos. Had the feckers done any homework before employing he or LVG?
The incompetence is staggering.
I agree
I am i think it was a mistake to sack lvg when we did and although agree with the ultimate sacking of mourinho i think the situation was avoidable and mourinho could have improved on his 2nd season.
Just an opinion and speculation but feel free to bold it when you quote me and say it is merely hypothetical even though the entire thread is based on hypothesis
Newbie here, but long term lurker.
For my money, Jose was a better manager than all those after SAF but was not the right manager for Utd and he is a manager that has allowed the game to pass him by (I say this as someone who always admired what he did at Chelsea and Inter.) For me, he should really go into International management now as it would suit his style and tatics more tham club football, whilst he could continue to do the punditry he seems to enjoy now.
However, whilst I think Utd would be doing be doing better with him here rather than any of the others, I feel that the issues at Utd are systemic rather than down to individual managers. By this, I am kind of agreeing with what Neville said the other week in that the club need to stop shifting tact all the time and try to work to something that looks like a long term plan. Now I am not saying that OGS is the answer, however the state of the squad is such that even if the club were to go out and get a Simeone or a Pep it would still would not be competing at a level that is acceptable.
The reason I say this is because when I objectively look at the squad I find it hard to pull out anyone that I would say is of sufficient quality and would go into the squads of the elite teams. From my reckoning, the only players Utd have that are real players that you could see in a PL winning side are De Gea (although his form is a worry), James (in a couple of years) and Pogba (when he can be bothered.) I know a lot of people like Maguire and Wan Bissaka but I feel that both of them have issues (Maguire, his habit of being drawn out of position and his cumbersome turning circle, WB his lack of crossing ability) that mean they are what I call Tottenham players i.e. get you top 4 but not much else.
At this moment in time, I think that the club is wise to go with a lot of young boys and try and see if some of them are able to step up as the rebuilding work that needs to be done is such that it is going to require a full do over of the squad. I am talking about 7-11 players (not all of these need to be £35m+) and letting players like Lingard, Martial, Shaw etc go.
As it stands, I think this season is really one that is one step back to take two steps forward. By this I mean, sticking with this plan and hopefully getting some of the young boys showing that they can be capable of gearing up to a top level. After that the club can then fill the holes properly over the next three to four windows, whilst trying to shift as much dead wood.
For that reason, I do not think it really matters who the manager is this year as long as they give the young boys minutes, since CL and trophies are out of the question with this squad.
The only problem with this plan is, have the lessons been learned and will the club continue to let Ed run footballing decisions? And can can the players who look important now but aren't really good enough be let go? If the answer to these questions are no, then I continue to see the vicious circle continuing regardless of the manager.
For my money, Jose was a better manager than all those after SAF but was not the right manager for Utd and he is a manager that has allowed the game to pass him by (I say this as someone who always admired what he did at Chelsea and Inter.) For me, he should really go into International management now as it would suit his style and tatics more tham club football, whilst he could continue to do the punditry he seems to enjoy now.
However, whilst I think Utd would be doing be doing better with him here rather than any of the others, I feel that the issues at Utd are systemic rather than down to individual managers. By this, I am kind of agreeing with what Neville said the other week in that the club need to stop shifting tact all the time and try to work to something that looks like a long term plan. Now I am not saying that OGS is the answer, however the state of the squad is such that even if the club were to go out and get a Simeone or a Pep it would still would not be competing at a level that is acceptable.
The reason I say this is because when I objectively look at the squad I find it hard to pull out anyone that I would say is of sufficient quality and would go into the squads of the elite teams. From my reckoning, the only players Utd have that are real players that you could see in a PL winning side are De Gea (although his form is a worry), James (in a couple of years) and Pogba (when he can be bothered.) I know a lot of people like Maguire and Wan Bissaka but I feel that both of them have issues (Maguire, his habit of being drawn out of position and his cumbersome turning circle, WB his lack of crossing ability) that mean they are what I call Tottenham players i.e. get you top 4 but not much else.
At this moment in time, I think that the club is wise to go with a lot of young boys and try and see if some of them are able to step up as the rebuilding work that needs to be done is such that it is going to require a full do over of the squad. I am talking about 7-11 players (not all of these need to be £35m+) and letting players like Lingard, Martial, Shaw etc go.
As it stands, I think this season is really one that is one step back to take two steps forward. By this I mean, sticking with this plan and hopefully getting some of the young boys showing that they can be capable of gearing up to a top level. After that the club can then fill the holes properly over the next three to four windows, whilst trying to shift as much dead wood.
For that reason, I do not think it really matters who the manager is this year as long as they give the young boys minutes, since CL and trophies are out of the question with this squad.
The only problem with this plan is, have the lessons been learned and will the club continue to let Ed run footballing decisions? And can can the players who look important now but aren't really good enough be let go? If the answer to these questions are no, then I continue to see the vicious circle continuing regardless of the manager.
if he was backed he would be challenging he's ten times the manager klopp will ever be his cv speaks for itself
if the worlds best manager can't get out the dead wood and get a centre half in what chance do we have.
he had klop on toast whilst he was here too
Klopp spent roughly the same amount as Mourinho. The results are there for all to see. Klopp was the superior manager these last few years.
I think it is now clear as day Mourinho was right. He should have been backed. We could've been competing for the title but we've wound up fighting to stave off relegation now instead.
Of course, he did himself no favors by being so toxic towards the end, but it could've been avoided had he been backed from the start of that fateful season.
Now that politics has already done the damage so that Woodward can maintain he is "right", we are now stuck with Ole and we have no choice but to back him and give him time to turn things around. Ole is far more likeable and supportable. And takes more risks than Mourinho. I only hope they can somehow last till Jan so that they can get some support in attack and midfield.
Of course, he did himself no favors by being so toxic towards the end, but it could've been avoided had he been backed from the start of that fateful season.
Now that politics has already done the damage so that Woodward can maintain he is "right", we are now stuck with Ole and we have no choice but to back him and give him time to turn things around. Ole is far more likeable and supportable. And takes more risks than Mourinho. I only hope they can somehow last till Jan so that they can get some support in attack and midfield.
I dont see how we would have competed for the title last season, even in the hypothetical scenario of Mourinho getting who he wanted as those weren't game changing players to take us close to teams finishing with 97 and 98pts in that race.
If Klopp was denied VVD or Allison, I wonder what would've happened?
Managers make mistakes with transfers. Let alone one where the manager is only head coach and has to constantly be forced to compromise on transfers. Break the bank for a target man but refuse to buy a good winger to support him knowing full well we have no wingers or even proper crossing fullbacks in the squad. Refusing to get more defenders on the pretence that the current defence is good enough. The "transfer committee" decided these for him.
Despite all this, Mourinho still won more trophies, although Klopp's one trophy is a top, top trophy but it only came after he got his players in place. (breaking the bank for Allison and VVD). Mourinho never got to that level of comfort with his players, constantly being asked to compromise.
last season, for sure not, but it would have been progress forward.
Very well said.
You'd think sir alex would be smiling cozy with these groups... he's called the hairdryer once
He was backed in his 1st and 2nd season and what did he have to show for it? We were absolutely embarassing in EL(extra time against the mighty Anderlecht
, were a touch away from elimination against fecking Celta) and in the UCL( some horrible group stage matches and then got eliminated against Sevilla playing pussy Mourinho football) despite playing against some of the easiest opponents.With a squad that everyone in here agrees was crap so were you expecting to completely dominate every game with fantastic football? Everyone moans the football wasnt pretty yet moans the squad was is crap. They also moan that mourinho should make the beat of what he had whether backed or not. Well isnt this what he dis in first two seasons? Won eufa and runners up in lrem with crap squad by making the best of it which wasnt always pretty? Then maybe he thought he might get backed? The contradictions on here are amazingHe was backed in his 1st and 2nd season and what did he have to show for it? We were absolutely embarassing in EL(extra time against the mighty Anderlecht
If he was backed we’d have a better defence, midfield and attack. Maguire would be in his 2nd season and settled with Lindelof, Lukaku would probably have 7-8 league goals, Willian or Perisic would be assisting instead of seeing the likes of Rashford or Andreas attempting to create, the likes of Martial and Pogba would be gone with a hard working CM instead of Fred (he was told to take Fred or have no signing in midfield, so if he was backed, he would have got his first choice CM) in there.
I think we’d be there or there-abouts top 4, hoping to challenge City as this years’ league is pretty dire. Our 06-09 squad would be up there toe to toe with Liverpool.
Jose’s transfer and football style is not the long-term style I’d like to see United have, but his style was clear to see and he was mid-way through building it.
I think we’d be there or there-abouts top 4, hoping to challenge City as this years’ league is pretty dire. Our 06-09 squad would be up there toe to toe with Liverpool.
Jose’s transfer and football style is not the long-term style I’d like to see United have, but his style was clear to see and he was mid-way through building it.
fyp. Even Slate has an article about Utd, and a rather good one. https://slate.com/culture/2019/10/manchester-united-bad-premier-league-season-collapse.html
I thought this was a accurate take --
Are you telling me he needed 500million to comfortably beat the likes of Sevilla, Anderlecht, Benfica, Basel... ?