Did we focus on the wrong area of the pitch in the summer?

It's Martial's fault for being a fanny and getting injured again when we needed him the most. Now it's been Rashford on his own for ages with a crap midfield, it's been hard times.

I think in hindsight we should have brought in 1 Cmid, but we did the right thing by putting our trust in Fred to come good. And then again, the lack of other options in the middle let us down. The biggest single mistake was imo trusting Matic and his Static legs as a mainstay this season.

UNITED ACADEMY said:

Obviously? You are making things up here. Lukaku & Dybala deal was deal done reported by tier 1. While 100m spend news came from a non-reliable source. If we only have 100m then I don't know how we even have an idea to sign Sancho before the window was started and this Sancho's signing came from a tier 1 Ornstein.

Aldeweireld is having an abysmal season right now. The sign has shown already. And Maguire has been the better player this season.

You are totally talking non sense & jump into conclusion quickly. We had Bailly & Tuanzebe who are quick enough to be Maguire's ideal partnership. There is no evidence that Lindelof will even cement his spot ahead of Tuanzebe. Beside, our defense has been the positive thing and it worked well against team with a high press and subsequently high line such as Chelsea & Leicester City.

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Sancho was dependent on top 4 and would be a "marquee" signing. Similar to how RM, PGS, Barca have been willing to overexpend to get certain players. Ornsteein reported that Dybala was close to Tottenham aswell.

I would not say that Alderweireld has been the big issue this season, despite not being at his best. In the same way as i might conclude fast on Maguire, you turn around and do the same on Alderweireld...

Lindelof is also limited as a defender. On that we can agree.
We have not played against City or Pool yet. We have been very fast to drop deep and be compact during games. The great defense opinion might change soon, then again hard to evaluate given that we do not now how they would operate with a better midfield or not parking the bus.

GBBQ said:

Without the solid defence, the world class attack wasn't enough to deliver trophies. So in effect, until we address both attack and defence we would have gaps. if we added in a top striker and right wing we'd be probably giving out about Smalling and Darmian being the weak links.

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But it was enough to make them a top 4 team. We're struggling for top 10 after spunking 130m on defenders.

Fosu-Mens said:

Sancho was dependent on top 4 and would be a "marquee" signing. Similar to how RM, PGS, Barca have been willing to overexpend to get certain players. Ornsteein reported that Dybala was close to Tottenham aswell.

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What's your point here?

Fosu-Mens said:

I would not say that Alderweireld has been the big issue this season, despite not being at his best. In the same way as i might conclude fast on Maguire, you turn around and do the same on Alderweireld...

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Huh? I don't understand what are you talking about? Maguire has been the better player than Aldeweireld this season. Aldeweireld is declining at the moment and I don't need to repeat this again why and I don't understand why are you even trying to think it's the same scenario with Maguire. There is no future in Aldeweireld in our rebuilding process. Beside, he's going to crazy amount of wages if we go for him. Maguire is part of our rebuilding process, he has performed for us & contender to be our captain next season.

Fosu-Mens said:

Lindelof is also limited as a defender. On that we can agree.
We have not played against City or Pool yet. We have been very fast to drop deep and be compact during games. The great defense opinion might change soon, then again hard to evaluate given that we do not now how they would operate with a better midfield or not parking the bus.

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Ole has stated he wanted to sign midfielder before the window was opened. We aimed for midfield in the summer and we didn't get one. The money was there. Signing a new midfielder could potentially taking away your concern.

UNITED ACADEMY said:

What's your point here?

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Ornstein is not always right even though he is a "tier 1". I think we would have been willing to spend on a big name like Sancho, not an "unknown" midfielder from Spain, Italy or Germany. I have difficulty in believing that we only had two options for a midfielder and those two were Rabiot and Longstaff.

UNITED ACADEMY said:

Huh? I don't understand what are you talking about? Maguire has been the better player than Aldeweireld this season. Aldeweireld is declining at the moment and I don't need to repeat this again why and I don't understand why are you even trying to think it's the same scenario with Maguire. There is no future in Aldeweireld in our rebuilding process. Beside, he's going to crazy amount of wages if we go for him. Maguire is part of our rebuilding process, he has performed for us & contender to be our captain next season.

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If this is a rebuild aiming for us to compete among the best in the world, then i don't think Maguire inhabit the mobility to function unless one plays with a compact defense and defends from crosses. A defensive scheme similar to our previous manager and not in line with OGS "high pressing" ideas. And not how the best teams in the world plays. Alderweireld would have been able to play 2 seasons imo (i don't think Tottenhams issues this year is on him), and would have made the money saved on not buying Maguire available for a midfielder(since i do not think we were willing to spend over £100m).

UNITED ACADEMY said:

Ole has stated he wanted to sign midfielder before the window was opened. We aimed for midfield in the summer and we didn't get one. The money was there. Signing a new midfielder could potentially taking away your concern.

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We could afford to spend more, but the club was unwilling to spend/unable to identify targets that would improve our midfield. I don't know which of the reasons that is correct, neither are acceptable reasons for not improving our midfield.

Skills said:

But it was enough to make them a top 4 team. We're struggling for top 10 after spunking 130m on defenders.

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Fair enough, but that strike force was put together over 3 windows though and they had an 8th place finish in the first season. In the second season they came 4th place by 1 point having had no European football to focus on (fewer matches, less travel, less fatigue etc.) so they were definitely helped by favorable circumstances that surely must equate to a few points.

Ultimately I would prefer they focused on attack as well by the way. Just think with the problems across the board Ole's (flawed) logic was to shore up the defence and then ask the attackers to get 1 or 2 goals per game rather than having a weaker defence and needing 3 goals to be comfortable.

Funny how I was shouted down in the summer when you spent £80m on Maguire for suggesting what the OP is suggesting, and now here we are.

Here's just a few examples!!!!!!!!

I don't think United paying £80m for a player is a problem - the money is mostly immaterial - but you've got bigger problems in midfield that arguably need dealing with first. Maguire's a safe way of mostly dealing with an issue you've had, but I think signing him will affect your ability to properly sort out bigger, chronic problems with the rest of your team.

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I've really tried to work out why United would be willing to make Harry Maguire their statement signing of the summer and I still can't see how this really makes sense in the long-term. If you already had your centre-back pairing sorted and you were signing Maguire as a ready-made option who could reliably fill in at a moment's notice, I'd totally get it. I wasn't exactly keen on us signing him a few weeks ago but I could see what Pep was thinking - "Stones is injured? No worries, we can put Maguire in for a couple of games!" But as the guy United are going to spend half their summer budget on, and as the guy tasked with being the catalyst for you to become a regular top four side again, and as the guy who'll regularly lead you to trophies? Harry Maguire's the guy you're putting this on?

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Does he improve your first XI? Just about. Does he improve your first XI enough to make you a top 4 side, let alone a title-winning side in three/four years? ... Ehhh.

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It doesn't matter, not really, but if you're going to spend £80m on a centre-back do you really want to spend it on Harry Maguire when you've got far deeper problems in other areas of the pitch?

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So less than a year ago United refused to give Mourinho £65m to sign Maguire. Now they're giving more than that to Solskjaer in order to get him. He wasn't even Leicester's best defender last season and considering the centre-backs you could have gotten instead - probably for slightly less money - this strikes me as an increasingly odd choice. He's a solid second choice for a team with United's ambitions, and I think if we'd picked him up to replace Kompany as a reserve option I'd be pleased, but is this the guy United want to spend tonnes of money on to start their resurgence?

Ok.

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I could do this all fecking day.

Our transfers were well thought and made a great positive impact to our team. However, I do question the wisdom of spending 100m+ in defence when the midfield and the forward line had been totally neglected.

The start of a Rebuild should be the Spine first. CB, CM, CF. If we supposedly had the money, then this should have been the 3 brought in first.
That's not taking anything away from AWB and James. but It's proving now where we are thin, and why we are in the state we are.

Somehow since Solskjear has taken over we have gone from having a top 4 side to a side that fans are no saying is a top 8 side despite spending 120 million on defenders...

Ask yourself was Maguire really worth buying when Leicester city dont seem to be struggling at all without him and yet fans moan about Leicester having a better midfield than ours, I think that tells you that we spent unwisely and axel could have done just as competent job as a defensive right back like Bissaka is.

robinamicrowave said:

Funny how I was shouted down in the summer when you spent £80m on Maguire for suggesting what the OP is suggesting, and now here we are.

Here's just a few examples!!!!!!!!

I could do this all fecking day.

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Some of us said the same. You did not have to be clairvoyant to see that this was a bad decision, so you are not getting any kudos from me on that point, but i will give you praise for sticking to your unpopular opinion. By chance, did you think that Fred would be less than stellar?

robinamicrowave said:

Funny how I was shouted down in the summer when you spent £80m on Maguire for suggesting what the OP is suggesting, and now here we are.

Here's just a few examples!!!!!!!!

I could do this all fecking day.

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Yeah I still don't think you had a point there. Signing Maguire wasn't a mistake and he's proven a huge upgrade to our defense not just a marginal one like you suggest. Him and Wan Bissaka has provided us with the stability we were sorely lacking last season. Our mistake wasn't reinforcing our back four - it was to neglect our midfield and attack. They weren't mutually exclusive either we could have afforded both.

Fosu-Mens said:

Some of us said the same. You did not have to be clairvoyant to see that this was a bad decision, so you are not getting any kudos from me on that point, but i will give you praise for sticking to your unpopular opinion. By chance, did you think that Fred would be less than stellar?

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Didn't really have an opinion on him because I don't watch Ukranian football, haha.

MisterLupus said:

Yeah I still don't think you had a point there. Signing Maguire wasn't a mistake and he's proven a huge upgrade to our defense not just a marginal one like you suggest. Him and Wan Bissaka has provided us with the stability we were sorely lacking last season. Our mistake wasn't reinforcing our back four - it was to neglect our midfield and attack. They weren't mutually exclusive either we could have afforded both.

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Events since have proven that improving your defence and improving the rest of your squad probably were mutually exclusive.

MisterLupus said:

Yeah I still don't think you had a point there. Signing Maguire wasn't a mistake and he's proven a huge upgrade to our defense not just a marginal one like you suggest. Him and Wan Bissaka has provided us with the stability we were sorely lacking last season. Our mistake wasn't reinforcing our back four - it was to neglect our midfield and attack. They weren't mutually exclusive either we could have afforded both.

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There are two scenarios at play here:
1. We had a set budget and buying Maguire and AWB for a combined £130m made it difficult to afford a midfielder/attacker. The ones who made the priority to sign Maguire over cheaper but potentially more capable players made the wrong decision.
2. We had money to spend, but could not find the right targets/unable to come to agreements. The ones involved in identifying targets/negotiating are blind or incompetent or pro Brexit FC.

People should be allowed to question to what extent Maguire is making us better.

robinamicrowave said:

Events since have proven that improving your defence and improving the rest of your squad probably were mutually exclusive.

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Which events?

Fosu-Mens said:

There are two scenarios at play here:
1. We had a set budget and buying Maguire and AWB for a combined £130m made it difficult to afford a midfielder/attacker. The ones who made the priority to sign Maguire over cheaper but potentially more capable players made the wrong decision.
2. We had money to spend, but could not find the right targets/unable to come to agreements. The ones involved in identifying targets/negotiating are blind or incompetent or pro Brexit FC.

People should be allowed to question to what extent Maguire is making us better.

Click to expand...

Well the second scenario is the one we were told to be true - and also the one making the most sense considering the amount of wages we managed to free up and the huge sum aquired from shipping off Lukaku plus our record revenue being boasted - so I'll consider scenario 1 quite speculative. Oh and who's denying you your right to question anything?

I disagree though - in fact I'd say go back and rewatch our matches from last season if you think that was a wasted investment. He's not only stabalised our defense - his presence has even impacted our midfield positively making them look sturdier too. Last season we were a mess all across the field - this season we're only struggling (well that's a mild assessment I would stick to "looked utterly toothless" myself) in the final third.

No the transfers we made were solid based on what we've seen so far - it's the ones we didn't make that are screwing us over.

MisterLupus said:

Well the second scenario is the one we were told to be true - and also the one making the most sense considering the amount of wages we managed to free up and the huge sum aquired from shipping off Lukaku plus our record revenue being boasted - so I'll consider scenario 1 quite speculative. Oh and who's denying you your right to question anything?

I disagree though - in fact I'd say go back and rewatch our matches from last season if you think that was a wasted investment. He's not only stabalised our defense - his presence have even impacted our midfield positively making them look sturdier too. Last season we were a mess all across the field - this season we're only struggling (well that's a mild assessment I would stick to "utterly toothless" myself) in the final third.

No the transfers we made were solid based on what we've seen so far - it's the ones we didn't make that are screwing us over.

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The second scenario is the one that is frightening. If they had the money available, then i can accept that they bought Maguire given that in theory it would not prevent us from signing a midfielder. What i cannot accept is that we were unable to identify targets or that people at the club thought that we would be fine this season with the options available in midfield and attack. That is not a one person problem, that means multiple people are so incompetent at accessing players abilities that we are even more f***ed than i though.

AWB is world class defensively, utterly toothless in attack. IF he can improve/change his technique and learn to cross correctly then he will be an asset as a fullback. Personally i think his attributes are better suited as a central defender atm.

Fosu-Mens said:

The second scenario is the one that is frightening. If they had the money available, then i can accept that they bought Maguire given that in theory it would not prevent us from signing a midfielder. What i cannot accept is that we were unable to identify targets or that people at the club thought that we would be fine this season with the options available in midfield and attack. That is not a one person problem, that means multiple people are so incompetent at accessing players abilities that we are even more f***ed than i though.

AWB is world class defensively, utterly toothless in attack. IF he can improve/change his technique and learn to cross correctly then he will be an asset as a fullback. Personally i think his attributes are better suited as a central defender atm.

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Agree on your first paragraph here - it's inexcusable and I've been very vocal about us not reinforcing up front. It's the reason I won't cry on Ole's behalf if he's let go before January - because truth is he set himself up for failure with that window (still hopeful he'll succeed though I would hate for us having to hit the reset button once more this early on). I disagree with what you're saying about Aaron though - I don't find Wan-Bissaka toothless in attack I think he's made some impressive runs and proven very useful during the overlap as well - plus his technique and ability to get past defenders too is evident. A bit sloppy perhaps and definitely random with his crosses - but in fairness there are rarely anyone in the box intelligently positioned to receive them so... It will be hard to judge him until we get a proper attack out there - as of now there's barely any attack at all.

MisterLupus said:

Agree on your first paragraph here - it's inexcusable and I've been very vocal about us not reinforcing up front. It's the reason I won't cry on Ole's behalf if he's let go before January - because truth is he set himself up for failure with that window (still hopeful he'll succeed though I would hate for us having to hit the reset button once more this early on). I disagree with what you're saying about Aaron though - I don't find Wan-Bissaka toothless in attack I think he's made some impressive runs and proven very useful during the overlap as well - plus his technique and ability to get past defenders too is evident. A bit sloppy perhaps and definitely random with his crosses - but in fairness there are rarely anyone in the box intelligently positioned to receive them so... It will be hard to judge him until we get a proper attack out there - as of now there's barely any attack at all.

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Good. Have you seen AWBs posture when controlling the ball? Leaning forward with the more or less between his legs. Makes it difficult to control the ball while spotting teammates/oppos at the same time. Also makes it more difficult to pass and cross when you got to adjust the ball or your feet when crossing/passing. If he is able to adress this, i think his ability on the ball will improve drastically, problem is that it is often more difficult to "unlearn" a habit than starting from scratch and learn something new.

MisterLupus said:

Which events?

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Trying and failing to sign Eriksen, Dybala, Bruno Fernandes, and Mandzukic while getting rid of Sanchez and Lukaku at the same time, relying on Greenwood, Gomes, and Chong as a result. I imagine you'll go again in January but I don't see you going big again until Pogba leaves, which won't be until the summer.

Fosu-Mens said:

Good. Have you seen AWBs posture when controlling the ball? Leaning forward with the more or less between his legs. Makes it difficult to control the ball while spotting teammates/oppos at the same time. Also makes it more difficult to pass and cross when you got to adjust the ball or your feet when crossing/passing. If he is able to adress this, i think his ability on the ball will improve drastically, problem is that it is often more difficult to "unlearn" a habit than starting from scratch and learn something new.

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Yeah he seems a bit "stiff legged" - his weight-distribution being a bit uneven - which in my experience makes for poor control / maneuverability and also improves one's risk of serious injury during collisions / impacts - but it's very hard to judge these things just watching someone on the telly and also my experience stems primarilly from full-contact martial arts not so much football so I might not be one worth listening to here

Overall though I consider him perhaps the best signing we've had post-fergie and with a lot of potential for further improvement as well. With the right attitude and guidance I believe he could easily reach the very top of this game - he's already well on his way.

robinamicrowave said:

Trying and failing to sign Eriksen, Dybala, Bruno Fernandes, and Mandzukic while getting rid of Sanchez and Lukaku at the same time, relying on Greenwood, Gomes, and Chong as a result. I imagine you'll go again in January but I don't see you going big again until Pogba leaves, which won't be until the summer.

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I don't believe those failures were down to a lack of funds - I think it was a combination of them being cheapskates, too focused on just a few targets not having done enough research into different prospects and also unwilling to compromise and take a chance once these main targets proved undesirable. Plus - of course - them overestimating the influence of those very youngsters you're mentioning and also a few senior members of our squad (Lingard, Mata, Fred and Matic to be exact).

In short - I believe the funds were there but they simply fecked it up.

Look i don't think we did bad in the buying department but i think we did very bad in the selling department. Losing out on Herrera, Lukaku was very bad specially when we couldn't find replacements. Ole does have a chance of going in with the youth against Liverpool. He has nothing to lose because i think we are underdogs in the game before it starts but that can change as the game progresses. This is my suggested XI-

Romero
AWB Maguire Lindelof Shaw
Mctominay
Fred Gomes
James Martial Rashford

Just the inclusion of Gomes will change the whole dynamic of this team and i hope Ole understands that. Go with 4-3-3 and get the ball rolling.

OleTheGreat said:

Look i don't think we did bad in the buying department but i think we did very bad in the selling department. Losing out on Herrera, Lukaku was very bad specially when we couldn't find replacements. Ole does have a chance of going in with the youth against Liverpool. He has nothing to lose because i think we are underdogs in the game before it starts but that can change as the game progresses. This is my suggested XI-

Romero
AWB Maguire Lindelof Shaw
Mctominay
Fred Gomes
James Martial Rashford

Just the inclusion of Gomes will change the whole dynamic of this team and i hope Ole understands that. Go with 4-3-3 and get the ball rolling.

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Bold move putting in Fred, considering everyone here seems to want to nail him to a cross. They will come at us and I don't think the team has enough in them to nab a goal to even sneak a win.

We should have used The Lukaku money to get at least another CM, or a back up striker, losing Players like Herrera and Lukaku in one season, not replacing them was wrong.
You cannot expect the young ones to make the step up straight away, our CM is by far the worst in the Premier league, Championship sides have a better CM than us!
Fred is not UTD quality, has to be shipped out, Matic legs gone, Mctominay is still learning, Pogba is just Pogba, over plays loses ball to often, mad thing is there's a top player in him, but He's not showing it.

Fosu-Mens said:

Ornstein is not always right even though he is a "tier 1". I think we would have been willing to spend on a big name like Sancho, not an "unknown" midfielder from Spain, Italy or Germany. I have difficulty in believing that we only had two options for a midfielder and those two were Rabiot and Longstaff.

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Fosu-Mens said:

We could afford to spend more, but the club was unwilling to spend/unable to identify targets that would improve our midfield. I don't know which of the reasons that is correct, neither are acceptable reasons for not improving our midfield.

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I would rather trust Ornstein as the source that we can believe than an unreliable source who said we only have 100m budget. I don't know why do you want to argue about that. Even Ole himself already said we have the money. I don't doubt that we have the money & we have targetted more than just defenders.

Fosu-Mens said:

If this is a rebuild aiming for us to compete among the best in the world, then i don't think Maguire inhabit the mobility to function unless one plays with a compact defense and defends from crosses. A defensive scheme similar to our previous manager and not in line with OGS "high pressing" ideas. And not how the best teams in the world plays. Alderweireld would have been able to play 2 seasons imo (i don't think Tottenhams issues this year is on him), and would have made the money saved on not buying Maguire available for a midfielder(since i do not think we were willing to spend over £100m).

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Since when a player with only 2 seasons left in his career & this season has been declining is good signing for rebuilding process? Doesn't make any sense!!

Maguire's signing isn't the reason why we fail to land midfielder. We had the money to do swap deal of Lukaku & Dybala and still able to sign Maguire.

Even if we don't sign Maguire, we would either sign a panic buy or still signing no midfielder. Player picked other club over us & other club are asking ridiculous amount of money for the unproven players.

You let an unreliable source to make you believe that we won't spend more than 100m. But in actual fact is Ornstein has reported we wanted Sancho who easily cost 100m, tier 1 from Italy also reported we had agreed a swap deal with Juventus between Lukaku & Dybala, & Ole himself has already said the money is there to make more signings.

Not getting a couple of CMs killed our season. No coach on earth is getting the current available group to play decent football. Our first choice 11 is a good team imo but outside of that we have absolutely nothing.

Hopefully we can get at least one in January.

Rampant Red Rodriguez said:

It's Martial's fault for being a fanny and getting injured again when we needed him the most. Now it's been Rashford on his own for ages with a crap midfield, it's been hard times.

I think in hindsight we should have brought in 1 Cmid, but we did the right thing by putting our trust in Fred to come good. And then again, the lack of other options in the middle let us down. The biggest single mistake was imo trusting Matic and his Static legs as a mainstay this season.

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Can't agree with this. Fred has shown nothing to suggest he could ever be good enough. He's one of the flakiest CMs I've ever seen. Ole clearly doesn't rate him but is stuck with him.

We have 2 good midfielders in the club and the rest are all terrible. We play with 3 midfielders in every game. We went into the season a midfielder short of a starting 11 even with everybody fit.

If they wanted Longstaff Ed should have just went and bought him.

We need a Midfielder and a CF in January to have any chance of top 6.

SungSam7 said:

Bold move putting in Fred, considering everyone here seems to want to nail him to a cross. They will come at us and I don't think the team has enough in them to nab a goal to even sneak a win.

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You're right buddy but we have no hope. I don't think Perriera is better than Fred and Matic is not the player he once was. And also i accept the second half of that statement, right now we don't seem to have the hang of it.

Nope, it's the right areas.. unfortunately it's incomplete - plenty more other areas that need investment.

That and our gamble to trust and rely on Martial as our CF didn't pay off because well.. it's not the first time anyway. Benefit of the doubt, injury can happen to anyone. Along with our main LB, our best attacking CM also have freak injuries this season which doesn't help, plus our defenders (the two RBs) and striker (Greenwood).

I think it's more a case of signing the right players who become available, within a particular transfer window, in positions of the squad we need to fill. If you just focus and obsess on signing players in specific positions as the only priority, and ignore everything else, you can get yourself into a right old mess. It's also hard to criticise anyone we signed this summer. They are look promising signings to me.

It's clear we're working to sign players in the other positions where we are woefully short. If the right players become available in January, I am sure we'll sign them there and then. Otherwise - we might have to make do with a couple of short-term loans to patch over the cracks until the summer. This is better than hastily signing expensive shite to hopefully cover over the cracks more permanently.

Bulldog United said:

I think it's more a case of signing the right players who become available, within a particular transfer window, in positions of the squad we need to fill. If you just focus and obsess on signing players in specific positions as the only priority, and ignore everything else, you can get yourself into a right old mess. It's also hard to criticise anyone we signed this summer. They are look promising signings to me.

It's clear we're working to sign players in the other positions where we are woefully short. If the right players become available in January, I am sure we'll sign them there and then. Otherwise - we might have to make do with a couple of short-term loans to patch over the cracks until the summer. This is better than hastily signing expensive shite to hopefully cover over the cracks more permanently.

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Agree, if we had to wait for the players we want, we might have to wait a long long time. The top players wont want to come to us until we get back into Champions League regularly. So we now must look further afield for the up and coming young players or hope the scouts spot someone that we have not heard of.