ok fair enough.
Is Pochettino's time at Spurs coming to an end?
- Thread starter Skills
- Start date
- Status
Yeah. Most managers are judged from game to game (Ole?) and can't afford to plan for the future with giving youth playtime, buying players that will not come to their own until a couple of years in. It's also important to have owners that trust in the long term vision and philosophy of a manager. The fans have 0 patience that is for sure, today you are a hero that does away with the toxicity of the previous regime and tomorrow you are a nothing manager.
Haha yes it's true. The state of the fans here are deluded like Ole. I love him as our legend player but not as our manager. People has to stop this bromance thing and think for United. If he's not good enough we should sack him. Our club becoming joke to rivals out there ffsUnited fans truly are a special breed. The only people who will ever try to seriously put forward an argument that Ole is a better manager than Pochettino
Ole failed (miserably) at Cardiff and barring a small period of success at the start, has been awful at United. Arguably worse than Moyes this season.
There's no rational argument that he's a better manager than Pochettino. The only success he's had has been in a backwater league, whenever he's tried his hand in a top division he has been a disastrous appointment, leading a club to relegation and one of the most expensive squads in the league to the bottom half. Pochettino is having a horrible season at Spurs, but even if you don't rate him he has proven his ability to manage a team in to the top 4 of the premier league, and led a side to a CL final. He was also very successful at Southampton.
'Ole has won something' is a very disingenuous argument because what he won was at a level many tiers below anywhere Pochettino has managed, where the management and coaching standards are completely different to what is required when running a Premier League side. If you run with this argument then you'd have to also legitimately believe that there are hundreds of managers out there better than Pochettino throughout the minor leagues in Europe.
One bad season doesn't put Pochettino on Ole's level, that would be absurd. The fact is that he's proven his ability to run a team well across many seasons, whereas as far as we all know this is just Ole's true level as a manager, we've seen nothing to suggest otherwise.
There's no rational argument that he's a better manager than Pochettino. The only success he's had has been in a backwater league, whenever he's tried his hand in a top division he has been a disastrous appointment, leading a club to relegation and one of the most expensive squads in the league to the bottom half. Pochettino is having a horrible season at Spurs, but even if you don't rate him he has proven his ability to manage a team in to the top 4 of the premier league, and led a side to a CL final. He was also very successful at Southampton.
'Ole has won something' is a very disingenuous argument because what he won was at a level many tiers below anywhere Pochettino has managed, where the management and coaching standards are completely different to what is required when running a Premier League side. If you run with this argument then you'd have to also legitimately believe that there are hundreds of managers out there better than Pochettino throughout the minor leagues in Europe.
One bad season doesn't put Pochettino on Ole's level, that would be absurd. The fact is that he's proven his ability to run a team well across many seasons, whereas as far as we all know this is just Ole's true level as a manager, we've seen nothing to suggest otherwise.
Anybody seriously trying to argue that Ole is a better manager than Poch needs their fecking head examined.
Joke is when we're under moyes. Now the scouse genuinely pity us, and that's worse.
See tomorrow they'll probably score a few goals and took the foot of the pedals out of pity
Surely nobody is that daft
ffs
I looked at the last page and no one said Ole is a better manager than Poch. The question is who would get sacked first.
He's desperate for results and the only one that can dig him out of this hole is Kane who has gone AWOL. Spurs are built around him by design, they will never bench him because he has Poch and Levy's total support and he's been poor for Spurs for a very long time. He's struggling badly to score from open play.
Spurs fans on the caf can extol his virtues as much as they like but unless he improves on his atrocious form then they'll continue to sing his name as they rapidly go down the table!
Spurs fans on the caf can extol his virtues as much as they like but unless he improves on his atrocious form then they'll continue to sing his name as they rapidly go down the table!
I agree. Any discussion comparing the ability between Poch and Ole is short-lived and one-sided. Poch wins hands down. Moving on.
Regards Spurs' current plight; at what point do the players begin to take responsibility for their actions on the field? Why is Poch the default option to blame here?
A similar thing is taking place at United right now, by the way, the team is grossly underperforming, but the only person copping the flak for the poor performances is the manager. Meanwhile, the players are free to go about their business - talking generic shite in the media, begging for more sponsors and advertising their taccy bling-bling all across the internet - seemingly free of any accountability and picking up a ridiculous sum of money every week for the priviledge.
Fecking primadonnas.
Is Poch really getting blamed? Even on here a rival forum he's getting a lot of backing and sympathy for the lack of investment all those years. This thread for example is pages and pages of his ability getting defended..and rightfully so because his track record has earned him the benefit of the doubt
Well, the majority of the Spurs fans on this board seem to be in favour of sacking Poch, which implies they hold him responsible in large measures. All except for Glaston, of course, which speaks volumes in itself.
I don't know a single Spurs fans outside of Redcafe, so I treat the resident Spurs fans' thoughts on the matter as the general consensus among their faithful.
I don't have problems mentioning Ole and his Cardiff spell. It was really bad. Althought people forget how bad Cardiff players were. But why don't you at the same time mention Pocettino getting sacked from Espanyol being last in Premiera Division (even if they say it was mutual consent)? Also in his first senior job?
Ole coming to United is totally different to Pochettino coming to Tottenham. While Ole came to a club that was and still is brutally managed, Pochettino came to a well managed club and table of very good players. You can say that Pochettino were 50m ahead from the start if it was 100m race.
You said that the only success has been in backwater league. You are right. Molde winning the league is like Livingstone winning in Scotland. But tell me what success did Pochettino have and had? And with success I mean some silverwere? Pochettino came to Tottenham filled with stars. He managed to take the team one step higher than previous managers but nothing more. If and when he leaves the club (and if he doesn't win anything) he would be no different to Villa Boas, Redknapp, Jol and so on. Not getting a single cup with those players puts you in that mix.
I am not telling that Ole is better or worse. One bad season don't make Pochettino bad manager. He is still good manager. But he is overrated by lots and lots of people.
Yes, Pochettino got sacked at Espanyol. He then went on to be successful at Southampton & Spurs in a top division. Ole has only failure stories in top divisions, no successes. That's the difference here.
Well managed club? Very good players?
- pleaseeeee! We were behind Everton when Poch took over. Most of our team were mercenaries. We had some talent in the team (What? Ole didn't?) but it was very raw and untested. He had barely any money to change that, whereas Ole just broke the record to bring in a central defender, and had 50m to spend on a right back. Added to that he has talents like Rashford, Pogba, De Gea, Martial etc to work with. Let's not pretend the situations were hugely different - both teams had some talent but were struggling to make it count, and were on the periphery of the top six. The main difference is Ole had money to invest.If you only view 'success' through the narrow prism of silverware, then yeah he's had no success. But that's obviously stupid because bringing a club in the top 4, getting them to the CL final etc, these are achievements for clubs and more important to a club than the league cup, fa cup etc. There's a reason Pochettino got hailed by people, he took a club on a low budget, nurtured the talent there, gave us a system and made us one of the best teams in the league for years. You don't have to think he's a great or up there with the very best managers (I can understand that) but to say he's not had any success just because he hasn't won a trophy is Paul Merson level surface analysis. And yes, he is clearly different to the guys you named, and 99% of our fanbase would find it laughable that you compare him to someone like Jol.
Maybe he is overrated, but he's levels above someone like Ole, a manager who has failed at his only two opportunities in the big leagues. And he shouldn't even be compared with him at all.
spurs will lose around 14 games again.... which is horrendous considering the squad.
I've outlined some of my issues with what Pochettino has been doing tactically recently in earlier posts, so I won't go over it again. I'll shorten it by saying that I do believe our current chaotic setup and lack of consistency with selections means that many players are finding it hard to show their true level. So on that level Pochettino deserves criticism, because the job of the manager is to get the best out of what he has available and to structure a team in a way which does that.
I do agree the players deserve criticism. Particularly a few in the squad who are clearly not giving their all. The problem is the age old scenario where the fact is that the players have all the power. You can't sack off an entire squad if they've lost faith in the manager, it's just not a feasible solution. And right now I'm seeing a majority of the players in this squad simply not play for Poch any longer, not consciously (I don't believe players 'down tools') but unconsciously simply not believing in him any longer, or feeling like the club is progressing. When that faith in a leader is gone it's hard to give your best, you can see on the pitch we're no longer a team with any kind of belief, structure or any real purpose, we're basically a hollow shell of individuals doing the bare minimum.
It doesn't help that Pochettino has made pretty clear (to me, at least) that he won't commit his future to the club. Maybe if he seemed committed we could throw everything behind him for the rebuild and put the blame on a few toxic individuals in the squad. But Poch himself was going to leave if we won the Champions League, has been non-committal in multiple press conferences, and in general has done nothing to tell supporters 'I'm here for the duration, back me'. So why should the fans support him when at the end of the season he could easily decide to jump ship regardless?
I'm pretty much with you on the players, the likes of Rose and Eriksen in particular with the shite they spew in the media, but this is one of those nasty realities of modern football that we all have to endure.
Successful is word that we have to agree that we disagree. While I think that with those players Tottenham have team should have won something you seem to accept coming top 4 and making CL final.Yes, Pochettino got sacked at Espanyol. He then went on to be successful at Southampton & Spurs in a top division. Ole has only failure stories in top divisions, no successes. That's the difference here.
Well managed club? Very good players?
If you only view 'success' through the narrow prism of silverware, then yeah he's had no success. But that's obviously stupid because bringing a club in the top 4, getting them to the CL final etc, these are achievements for clubs and more important to a club than the league cup, fa cup etc. There's a reason Pochettino got hailed by people, he took a club on a low budget, nurtured the talent there, gave us a system and made us one of the best teams in the league for years. You don't have to think he's a great or up there with the very best managers (I can understand that) but to say he's not had any success just because he hasn't won a trophy is Paul Merson level surface analysis. And yes, he is clearly different to the guys you named, and 99% of our fanbase would find it laughable that you compare him to someone like Jol.
Maybe he is overrated, but he's levels above someone like Ole, a manager who has failed at his only two opportunities in the big leagues. And he shouldn't even be compared with him at all.
They were good players when Pochettino came. You can call it whatever you want but there were very good players. Look at the squad. Stars. Future stars. He didn't have to spend that much having already good players. I can easly say that Pochettino inherited better team than Ole. That Tottenham team would have no trouble beating us. Beacuse we really don't have good players. Our biggest "stars" are not even that big stars. Some are overated and some have not yet fulfilled their potential. Let's hope they to that as soon as possible.
I don't see Ole as failed. Not yet. With garbage he has to deal with and all those injuries it is hard to do something different. I might be wrong but if you put whoever you want in his place I don't see that it would make much difference. People expecting us chasing trophies are in my opinion very wrong. I still hope getting top 4because of tight league (except City/Pool) but that is only hope. With our squad we should be somewere in the middle of the league. Sadly. We have long way to walk but with Ole my hope is getting piece for piece in place so that we can go for it in 2-3 years. Until then we will get up and down results.
What should we have won? The league? The champions league? Maybe the league when Leicester won it, but Leicester were fantastic that year and deserve credit, and Pochettino was only at our second season. By the third he had completed the rebuild and we were at our best, but went up against a Conte Chelsea team who broke records for consecutive wins and only had to focus on the league. After that we're talking Manchester City getting 100+ points. Maybe we should have won an FA cup/league cup, but would that immediately shift him from unsuccessful to successful in your mind?
So Pochettino gets zero credit for developing those players? For bringing many of them in to the club? I outright deny that when he arrived Pochettino had more talent to arrive than when Ole came in, it's simply not true. Ole has a team full of internationals - many of whom are key men for those countries - and 2 players in Pogba and De Gea who you could argue are world class. Poch did not have this when he arrived, at all. He had to clear out a ton of dead wood, rely on the likes of Ryan Mason in midfield. You can 'easily' say Poch inherited a better team? What, with the power of hindsight? You can't say that because Kane is world class now he was exactly the same as when Poch inherited him. Many of our players hadn't fulfilled their potential, and we had zero stars. None.
It's pretty much done and dusted with Ole. You're bottom half of the table and will likely stay there after tomorrow. You clearly don't have a bottom half or even mid-table squad (anybody who convinces themselves of this is being ridiculous) and whilst you probably also don't have a top 4/trophy winning side, you have the players to be doing better than you currently are. We can only evaluate Ole in the here and now, not in a hypothetical universe where he turns it around, and in the here and now he's done nothing to show he should be compared to Pochettino. He was sacked at Cardiff after struggling even in the Championship, and is on the edge of the sack of United. His only two big jobs have, so far, been disasters .. this is the bottom line with Ole as a manager, even if you think Pochettino has underachieved (he hasn't, overall) then it's nowhere near to the extent that Ole has. Not even close.
He inherited a decent enough team but one which was firmly established in the 5-7th range. They were also still struggling to adapt to Bale leaving.
He also had some "interesting" characters to manage like Capoue, Kaboul, Adebayor, Paulinho in that first season. Think they were all gone by start of the next season so that suggests Poch wanted rid of them fairly early, probably a cull he couldn't do to 4-5 of this present squad.
In 14/15 I'm pretty sure likes of Chriches, Ryan Mason and Chadli were fairly regular so it wasn't that amazing an 11 considering Kane was pretty much unknown still.
It was similar standard to what Everon have atm. If Everton sacked Silva soon and his replacement takes them to a CL final in 5 years time I think that means he'd have done an incredible job.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014–15_Tottenham_Hotspur_F.C._season
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014–15_Tottenham_Hotspur_F.C._season
That this the squad Poch inherited. This was before Kane, Rose, Walker, Alli, had developed into anything.
Anyone trying to argue this was some amazing squad that he didn't have to do a lot with needs their head checked. This was just after they sold Bale and spunked it all on a bunch of failures by all accounts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014–15_Tottenham_Hotspur_F.C._season
That this the squad Poch inherited. This was before Kane, Rose, Walker, Alli, had developed into anything.
Anyone trying to argue this was some amazing squad that he didn't have to do a lot with needs their head checked. This was just after they sold Bale and spunked it all on a bunch of failures by all accounts.
It's kind of right though. It's great planning for the future and all but how we can trust that they will actually be great then? Could easily end up with 10-15 years of nothing.
I also don't rate planning for the future at the expense of now. Just don't see the point in that. I want to be entertained and enjoy watching us now, not in 5-10 years, if everything works perfectly.
In my opinio we should be making the team work well now then plan for the future. It'd give a much better platform for the youngsters to come into as well. Far easier said than done of course but solely planning for the future seems very negligent to me.
Quite a few "if you have a different opinion to me, you just don't understand football" posts in the previous couple of pages. Absolute shitstorm of a thread.
Good Manager but missing something for me.
Theres a bit of bottle needed to actually get over the line and win a trophy. Ultimately if it all starts to fall apart this year and they dont end up winning anything under Poch and the next manager inherits a mess I cant see how his time at Spurs will be seen as a success, however consistent theyve been the last few years.
Last seasons champions league final was a battle of the bottlers, but lost that.
Theres a bit of bottle needed to actually get over the line and win a trophy. Ultimately if it all starts to fall apart this year and they dont end up winning anything under Poch and the next manager inherits a mess I cant see how his time at Spurs will be seen as a success, however consistent theyve been the last few years.
Last seasons champions league final was a battle of the bottlers, but lost that.
He should have won something during those 5 years. Something to show. FA Cup or League cup would at least show that he achived something. For me if you want to be seen as a top manager you have to win things. Simple.
I didn't say anything about developing players. He has done well and I said he is good manager. And yes, Tottenham had better players when Pochettino arrived then when Ole. He had team full of internationals. Almost every player in your squad were internationals. Don't try to say that Tottenham team were full of mediocre players. Adebayor, Soldado, Eriksen, Lennon, Dembele, Kaboul, Verthongen, Rose, Paulinho and so on. Very good players. Maybe not players that Poch wanted but still internationals and very good. And previous year they came 6th.
I don't agree we have players to do a lot better. We got players, when healthy, who can do good job. Top 4. Maybe. But with our injuries we are stuck with what we have. Better yes, a lot better? I don't think so.
Where we are after tommorow we will see. A win will get us 7th. Lose and we are still parking at the bottom. I have a feeling that we will get a win. Just because everyone is so sure we will lose. Liverpool are better and in a perfect world should win but at home, i still believe.
Coming 6th year before and having team full of internationals. You are making it like Pochettino took over players from Plymouth.
I don't agree. Tottenham, for me, had far better team then.
Reaching the CL final is more lucrative and beneficial from a Clubs' (and arguably fans?) perspective than winning the League Cup. Hell even reaching the Top 4.
We have a team full of internationals and came 6th. What's Ole's excuse?
Kane was scoring in every PL game he started in the season before Poch arrived and went straight back to scoring in the EL from the beginning of Poch's tenure. I see little evidence for the idea that Poch had significant influence on Kane becoming world class -- that was his trajectory already. He just had to be - quite literally - given permission to fly by Poch, which occurred when the latter finally caved and started playing Kane in the PL with his job on the line.
A stronger case can be made for certain players, like Rose, whose default level actually looked/looks rather unimpressive and whose higher average level over some periods can probably be partially attributed to Poch and his staff. The spine of Poch's golden generation, however, were either already very good or well on their way when he arrived.
Kane made 10 league appearances the season before and scored 3 goals.
Now Poch had little to do with Kane's development too. Talk about selling a guy short.
If Pochettino leaves Spurs, I imagine they'll go for Simeone. Similarly intense, personality-driven, high-tempo manager, both seem to be reaching/ to have reached the end of cycles with their clubs.
These arguments that Pochettino already had good players are also pretty thin. Man Utd had the same squad that just won the title, look what a manager change did to them.
I can't imagine Levy paying more than the 24M/year that Simeone is earning at Atletico
Wow, that's a lot of money! Didn't realise he was on that much.
Excuse? Same excuse as Mourinho had in his last season. Lots of mediocre and below mediocre players.
I agree to some point but losing Vidic, Evra and Ferdinand at the same time with aging squad, satisfied players didn't help.
While I like Pochettino as a manager and this contest between his and Oles accomplishments is obviously one-sided: I have another problem with Pochettino to United:
He does not seem to handle pressure well. Some of his statements and rants this last year has been almost Mourinhoesque.
United would be even more pressure - much more - and I start to question if that would not be a real issue with bringing him here.
Ole is obviously the manager with inferior history and CV, but he has at least taken the manager-role back to where it should be in an extrovert sense.
Imagine the shitstorm there would be if Mourinho was still at the club and we would have started the season by performing as we have been. Players, owners., Woodward and maybe even the canteen-lady would have been not just under the bus but in the Thames.
Its a very important thing for a United-manager to be able to handle the pressure.
LVG - for all his downsides - was very good at it. Ole has been so far as well.
He does not seem to handle pressure well. Some of his statements and rants this last year has been almost Mourinhoesque.
United would be even more pressure - much more - and I start to question if that would not be a real issue with bringing him here.
Ole is obviously the manager with inferior history and CV, but he has at least taken the manager-role back to where it should be in an extrovert sense.
Imagine the shitstorm there would be if Mourinho was still at the club and we would have started the season by performing as we have been. Players, owners., Woodward and maybe even the canteen-lady would have been not just under the bus but in the Thames.
Its a very important thing for a United-manager to be able to handle the pressure.
LVG - for all his downsides - was very good at it. Ole has been so far as well.
Last edited:
turned into the wierdest thread on the forum
That squad finished 2nd. If Jose didn’t go Jose it would have easily finished top 4 as Ole came in to prove. So what’s your point.
You saying that team wasn’t good enough for top 4?
This was very good squad. Our squad is Norwich quality compared to this squad.
Do you also believe Moyes was the reason Rooney developed into a player capable of scoring a hat-trick on is United debut?
Time coming to an end? Possibly but not until end of the season. How people think Levy will sack him during the season is baffling. It just wont happen
- Status