The Oasis Draft - Final: Skizzo/Gio vs Pat_Mustard

With players at their career peak, who would win?


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Physiocrat

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Skizzo/Gio



Pat_Mustard



Skizzo/Gio Tactics

I think this is a tough game that looks like a potential stalemate. To break the deadlock, it's worth emphasising the various players we have who have pedigree of deciding big games. Guys with a track record of scoring in finals and the business end of tournaments:

Van Basten - Euro 88 - semi-final, last-minute winner against West Germany, getting the better of Kohler; and in the final that volley to clinch the game.
Rivera - 2 assists in the 2-1 win over Benfica in the 1963 European Cup Final; and a man-of-the-match display with two assists in the 4-1 win over Ajax in the 1969 European Cup Final
Breitner - 2 goals in 2 World Cup Finals
Gento - 2 goals in 2 European Cup Finals
Brehme - 3 goals in World Cup Semi-Finals and Finals

That is half of the team who have a track record in making the vital difference in the biggest games of their careers.

Defensive Tactics:

The counter-attacking threat posed by the opposition should be limited somewhat by the presence of premium insurance package Scirea who mastered the space between the defensive line and Buffon. If Kocsis starts, McGrath's potent aerial ability and sharp reading of the game should mitigate some of the threat. Meanwhile, both Brehme and Lahm excelled in pro-active defences and ensure all-round quality across the back five.

Attacking Tactics:

Released by Rivera's precision passing, Gento and Figo would both look to trouble their full backs and provide their own threat, before taking their ability to assist into consideration.

As well as going wide, Breitner and Edwards combine to provide a rock-solid midfield platform that should give us some measure of midfield control. Breitner is one of several players (Brehme, Van Basten, Gento, Rivera) who have a track record of scoring and/or deciding big games and major finals.

Through the middle Marco Van Basten can score in a multitude of ways and should be well serviced through a range of supply lines. Gento and Figo can generate chances from out wide to complement Rivera’s creativity in the centre.

Pat_Mustard Tactics

Formation: Zona Mista

- Balanced play style.

- After facing our stylistic nightmare in Beam's Spalletti-influenced 4-3-3/4-6-0 last round, we feel we're on safer ground tactically now. As great as the opposition attack is, it doesn't present us with quite the same kaleidoscope of options that will befuddle our Zona Mista, which is so capable of sliding into a 4-2-3-1 to mirror the opposition shape as necessary.

- If anything we see our team as having more control over the match here As great as the Edwards/Breitner duo is, it's tough to argue their case in terms of playmaking and match control over Souness and van Hanegem.

- Goal Threat: In Kocsis and van Basten we're both fielding an all-time great CF, but with sturdy defences all-around Baggio and Stoichkov look like likelier match-winners than Rivera and Gento.
 

harms

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Interesting. It's actually quite close in terms of the personnel, I didn't expect that anyone would catch up with Skizzo&Gio.
 

Skizzo

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In all seriousness though, good luck @Pat_Mustard

Solid team you slowly built throughout. As we eluded to in the OP, there’s little to separate and a lot of this will probably come down to how people see individual battles playing out over the pitch.

Will Figo limit Fachetti’s contribution on that flank?

How will the midfield battle play out with 4 physical scrappy players putting in a shift?

Which defense will hold out the opposition threat better?

And of course the most important, and easily answered questions..

How many hat tricks will Van Basten score? Will Mcgrath keep Kocsis in his pocket as well, or just Baggio?
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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@Physiocrat in his semifinal game mentioned the lack of obvious scorers across the front line in SG team and I didn't really agree with it.

The point is valid in this game though against that star studded defense. If they can mark out Van Basten, can see scoring getting very tough.

I am not a huge fan of Mcgrath alongside Scirea as well.

Pat has managed to reach the final without the best of midfields chemistry wise but without a goat no.10 here, he is really lucky here.

Didn't think anyone could beat that juggernaut but titled to vote for Pat at this point. Will vote tomorrow after the discussion.
 

Skizzo

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Pat has managed to reach the final without the best of midfields chemistry wise but without a goat no.10 here, he is really lucky here.
Bit of a downplay on Rivera there. He doesn’t quite seem to get his dues...but to be THAT guy...even @Pat_Mustard has rated him in that top tier

whereas Laudrup had a ready-made substitute of similar quality in his squad in Rivera.
but I'd counter that the sheer quality of my pairing, along with the calibre of service they'll be receiving from Bozsik/Rivera,
against the playmaking influence of a genius like Rivera
Wondering about Rivera's role in the game. If Breitner and Schuster are doing battle, Zanetti and Junior are nullifying Iniesta and Rumminege in the channels i can see him getting plenty of the ball centrally and splitting the defence open.
Rivera is a smashing pick at this stage. Top-class creativity was probably the only thing I felt his team lacked a bit of before that pick.
And his performance against a Cruyff-led Ajax team

 

GodShaveTheQueen

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I in fact rate him very highly. His Ajax game compilation is easily in my top 5 individual game compilation videos of all time.

But I do rate Souness as well. Rivera for one didn't feel like a player that would need a dedicated holder to defend against.

His plays quite often started deep and he was great at bringing it forward with some devastating passes in the final third. On the counters, he could punish you for fun.

I wouldn't mind a make shift B2B as a DM against him though (unlike say against someone like Zico)

I also think he lacked a bit of flair in him game to put him in the absolute top tier of AM's to scare off most DM's off the park.
 
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Skizzo

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GodShaveTheQueen said:
The point is valid in this game though against that star studded defense. If they can mark out Van Basten, can see scoring getting very tough.
And just to re-emphasize this point from the OP

Van Basten - Euro 88 - semi-final, last-minute winner against West Germany, getting the better of Kohler; and in the final that volley to clinch the game.
Rivera - 2 assists in the 2-1 win over Benfica in the 1963 European Cup Final; and a man-of-the-match display with two assists in the 4-1 win over Ajax in the 1969 European Cup Final
Breitner - 2 goals in 2 World Cup Finals
Gento - 2 goals in 2 European Cup Finals
Brehme - 3 goals in World Cup Semi-Finals and Finals

Half the team, while not necessarily prolific, have come up big in the most important games.

Brehme has also faced Conti 3 times, with Conti not registering a goal or an assist (granted he was pushing on in age in a couple of those) but with no right back, it’s a lot of flank to cover against Brehme/Gento...meaning Thuram has to step out, opening space for Van Basten in the box, and Rivera//Breitner outside it
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.

Based upon this...and the fact that Kocsis hasn’t scored against Buffon at all, I think we’ll win.
Game, set and match :lol:.

In all seriousness though, good luck @Pat_Mustard

Solid team you slowly built throughout. As we eluded to in the OP, there’s little to separate and a lot of this will probably come down to how people see individual battles playing out over the pitch.

Will Figo limit Fachetti’s contribution on that flank?

How will the midfield battle play out with 4 physical scrappy players putting in a shift?

Which defense will hold out the opposition threat better?

And of course the most important, and easily answered questions..

How many hat tricks will Van Basten score? Will Mcgrath keep Kocsis in his pocket as well, or just Baggio?
Good luck to you and Gio too!

On Facchetti, I think all the full backs on the pitch will have to be aware of what's going on behind them when they venture upfield, but Facchetti isn't under any special tactical instruction not to attack at all.

As far as the midfield battle, that would be a properly titanic battle and I don't see a decisve edge either way there tbh. Where I might have a slight advantage is in the level of support that Stoichkov and Conti will provide in comparison to Figo and Gento (not that Figo was a slacker defensively in his Barca days, but Gento didn't seem to offer much out of possession).

This was my first time watching this match in full in 25 years, and it was a lot less painful this time than it was back then :D. The first action in this video demonstrates what I'm getting at with Stoichkov's workrate, and typifies him as a player in some ways - the graft, the flair, and of course the almost impossible level of snarkiness:


It was interesting that he played the first half on the right wing then swapped to the left wing for the second half.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
And just to re-emphasize this point from the OP

Van Basten - Euro 88 - semi-final, last-minute winner against West Germany, getting the better of Kohler; and in the final that volley to clinch the game.
Rivera - 2 assists in the 2-1 win over Benfica in the 1963 European Cup Final; and a man-of-the-match display with two assists in the 4-1 win over Ajax in the 1969 European Cup Final
Breitner - 2 goals in 2 World Cup Finals
Gento - 2 goals in 2 European Cup Finals
Brehme - 3 goals in World Cup Semi-Finals and Finals

Half the team, while not necessarily prolific, have come up big in the most important games.

Brehme has also faced Conti 3 times, with Conti not registering a goal or an assist (granted he was pushing on in age in a couple of those) but with no right back, it’s a lot of flank to cover against Brehme/Gento...meaning Thuram has to step out, opening space for Van Basten in the box, and Rivera//Breitner outside it
As you say, Conti was well past his prime and nearing retirement by the time he faced Brehme at club level Their only other meeting was an international friendly where they played on opposite wings, with Conti's direct oppoent being Briegel, so I don't think the head to head record is that instructive here.

I'm surprised you haven't brought up McGrath's performance against Italy at WC 94 more though, as I'd probably have droned on about it incessantly if I was managing your team :D. It was a heroic effort from one of my favourite ever players, particularly as Baggio actually had a decent, inventive match himself:


He also had a perfectly good goal scandalously disallowed against McGrath's Ireland at the previous World Cup:


fecking cheating Irish ;)
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
And just to re-emphasize this point from the OP

Van Basten - Euro 88 - semi-final, last-minute winner against West Germany, getting the better of Kohler; and in the final that volley to clinch the game.
Rivera - 2 assists in the 2-1 win over Benfica in the 1963 European Cup Final; and a man-of-the-match display with two assists in the 4-1 win over Ajax in the 1969 European Cup Final
Breitner - 2 goals in 2 World Cup Finals
Gento - 2 goals in 2 European Cup Finals
Brehme - 3 goals in World Cup Semi-Finals and Finals

Half the team, while not necessarily prolific, have come up big in the most important games.

Brehme has also faced Conti 3 times, with Conti not registering a goal or an assist (granted he was pushing on in age in a couple of those) but with no right back, it’s a lot of flank to cover against Brehme/Gento...meaning Thuram has to step out, opening space for Van Basten in the box, and Rivera//Breitner outside it
Just to come back to this, while I wouldn't deny your lads' big-match credentials, our team have had plenty of success in big matches too:

Bobby Moore: 2 assists in a World Cup final.
Lilian Thuram: Randomly decided to become a goalscorer for one night only and scored two goals in a World Cup semi-final.
Giacinto Facchetti: Scored in 4 different European Cup semi-final matches from left-back.
Graeme Souness: Scored the winner in the 1985 Coppa Italia, Sampdoria's first ever trophy (barring Serie B titles)
Wim van Hanegem: Scored in the 1974 UEFA Cup final.
Bruno Conti: An assist in a World Cup final and an assist in a European Cup final.
Hristo Stoichkov: Top scorer in a World Cup, and scored in every Euro championship match he played in.
Roberto Baggio: 5 goals in 4 games in the knockout stages of World Cup 94. 2 goals and an assist in a UEFA Cup final.
Sandor Kocsis: Scored in a European Cup final. Scored 11 goals in 5 World Cup matches, and had an assist in the final.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Bruno Conti's outstanding performance in the 1982 World Cup final, courtesy of @harms :


Just a brilliant, underrated player. He actually reminds me a bit of his opposite number Figo in terms of their playmaking ability from the wing. I considered matching the opposition's 4-2-3-1 and playing Robben instead and maybe I should have done that but it's rare that the pieces fall into place so well for a Zona Mista, and I do fancy Conti and Stoichkov's sheer graft and industry to wrest the match in our favour here. Also, Robben to the best of my knowledge never did this:



Stoichkov in particular looks like a potential match-winner, with poor Lahm in the throes of an existential crisis after his manager doubted his ability to cope with a pacy opponent in their semi-final ;)

Gento’s pace would be a nightmare for Lahm
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Sharing this article, written on the eve of the World Cup final, mostly because I found it interesting, and also to illustrate quite how good Baggio was in the 1994 World Cup in less than favourable circumstances.

Romario and Baggio battle for crown
By
TONY HARPER
PASADENA, Calif., July 14 -- The heavyweight champions of world soccer, Italy's Roberto Baggio and Brazil's Romario, clash Sunday for the undisputed crown in the World Cup final. And who gets to deliver the knockout punch will probably rest on their cornermen. With pretenders to the crown such as Bulgaria's Hristo Stoichkov, Colombia's Faustino Asprilla and Sweden's Martin Dahlin out for the count, the Juventus and Barcelona heroes slug it out in Pasadena's Rose Bowl. 'We are the two players who have done most to get our countries to the final,' Romario said after his powerful header knocked out Sweden in Wednesday's semifinal. 'We both want the prize as the tournament top scorer, the honor of being the top player -- but only because that will probably ensure that our country wins the championship.' The pair are on five goals each -- one behind Russia's Oleg Salenko and Hristo Stoichkov. Baggio, who turned into a blubbering wreck after leading Italy past Bulgaria in its semifinal, was rated Thursday as only a 50-50 chance to play by team doctor Andrea Ferretti after hurting his right hamstring Wednesday. He'll play -- the Italians have no choice and Baggio said: 'I am used to physical problems, I want to play,' he said. But Italy's problems may be the backup men. Romario and Bebeto may still not be best friends, but they do have a passing interest in each other, knocking sumblime one-twos through the heart of every defense they've met. The combination has been sweet, and between them have put away eight of Brazil's 11 goals.

'When you see this team, you see something significantly different from other sides' Romario said. 'Our unity has allowed us to overcome whatever we lacked.' Italy, without the same lineup in 31 games under coach Arrigo Sacchi, has managed just three goals aside from Baggio and while Brazil has come up with several avenues to get the ball to Romario, Baggio has struggled for consistent support. He even had to set up one himself, the extra time winner against Nigeria where his audacious chip into the box won a penalty when Antonio Benarrivo was bowled over from behind. But Baggio, who has a better strike rate than his foe with 24 goals in 42 games compared to Romario's 30 in 59, has consistently proved he is good enough to go it alone. 'Even in his worst matches he is capable of producing something special,' said coach Arrigo Sacchi. Baggio has the edge in finishing. His few opportunties have been swept into the net while Romario missed more shots in Wednesday's victory than Italy had created for Baggio all tournament. The Italians are famed for defenders who can quickly patch up any cuts through the midfield, but with Franco Baresi injured and Mauro Tassotti and Alessandro Costacurta out suspended the backline is far less intimidating than the usual Azzurri assassins. Brazil's defense has always been overshadowed by the desire to go forward -- itrs fans whistled sourly every time there was a backwards pass against Sweden -- but have been a revelation in this tournament. With Mauro Silva and Marcio Santos standing firm, the South Americans have hardly cracked. They have let in just three goals to Italy's five and two came in 12 minutes of lunacy against Holland in the quarterfinal. But again all eyes are up front with two of the most emotional players in the game gunning to go out in tears of joy, rather than pain. 'This is my work, my life -- it's made of sweat and tears. This time I cried because I'm very, very happy,' Baggio said. Romario also revels in the glory of success and knows who the main problem to his team will be. 'Brazil is back after 24 years and we know how much it means to the people. We will try not to let them down. 'I do not know Baggio, but Dunga played with him for several years at Fiorentina and says he's a real nice guy. As a player, I don't need to say anything about him.' Brazil vs. Italy is the main event but first comes the preliminary. Sweden will meet Bulgaria in a play-off for third Saturday in a much maligned game which the Swedes, frankly, have little time for. Captain Jonas Thern, sensationally sent off against Brazil, and coach Tommy Svensson have called for FIFA to scrap the bridesmaids' dance. 'At the moment it's not a game that is really very important to us,' said Thern Thursday. 'I don't think any of the players want it. It's too short a time after the disappointment of losing the semifinal. It's all about money and how much FIFA can make from it.' Svensson believes the teams should share third. 'It should not be too difficult to motivate the players because they are playing for a medal in the World Cup. But perhaps it would be better to give both teams third place and share it like they do in the European Championships.'



Baggio has the edge in finishing. His few opportunties have been swept into the net while Romario missed more shots in Wednesday's victory than Italy had created for Baggio all tournament. The Italians are famed for defenders who can quickly patch up any cuts through the midfield, but with Franco Baresi injured and Mauro Tassotti and Alessandro Costacurta out suspended the backline is far less intimidating than the usual Azzurri assassins. Brazil's defense has always been overshadowed by the desire to go forward -- itrs fans whistled sourly every time there was a backwards pass against Sweden -- but have been a revelation in this tournament. With Mauro Silva and Marcio Santos standing firm, the South Americans have hardly cracked. They have let in just three goals to Italy's five and two came in 12 minutes of lunacy against Holland in the quarterfinal. But again all eyes are up front with two of the most emotional players in the game gunning to go out in tears of joy, rather than pain. 'This is my work, my life -- it's made of sweat and tears. This time I cried because I'm very, very happy,' Baggio said. Romario also revels in the glory of success and knows who the main problem to his team will be. 'Brazil is back after 24 years and we know how much it means to the people. We will try not to let them down. 'I do not know Baggio, but Dunga played with him for several years at Fiorentina and says he's a real nice guy. As a player, I don't need to say anything about him.' Brazil vs. Italy is the main event but first comes the preliminary. Sweden will meet Bulgaria in a play-off for third Saturday in a much maligned game which the Swedes, frankly, have little time for. Captain Jonas Thern, sensationally sent off against Brazil, and coach Tommy Svensson have called for FIFA to scrap the bridesmaids' dance. 'At the moment it's not a game that is really very important to us,' said Thern Thursday. 'I don't think any of the players want it. It's too short a time after the disappointment of losing the semifinal. It's all about money and how much FIFA can make from it.' Svensson believes the teams should share third. 'It should not be too difficult to motivate the players because they are playing for a medal in the World Cup. But perhaps it would be better to give both teams third place and share it like they do in the European Championships.'
 

Gio

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All the best Pat.

Speaking of Gento’s sheer pace, here’s his dominant performance against Djalma Santos - a similar calibre defensive full back as he’s facing here. If only they had a Van Basten-esque player at centre-forward to attack those telling deliveries and cut-backs.

 

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I in fact rate him very highly. His Ajax game compilation is easily in my top 5 individual game compilation videos of all time.

But I do rate Souness as well. Rivera for one didn't feel like a player that would need a dedicated holder to defend against.

His plays quite often started deep and he was great at bringing it forward with some devastating passes in the final third. On the counters, he could punish you for fun.

I wouldn't mind a make shift B2B as a DM against him though (unlike say against someone like Zico)

I also think he lacked a bit of flair in him game to put him in the absolute top tier of AM's to scare off most DM's off the park.
Aye, I don't envisage Rivera going on a mazy run here and netting a solo effort, in the vein of a Maradona or Messi type or calibre of player. But I do see his passing coming to the fore. The plan is to keep the pitch as wide as possible to stretch Pat's defence which in turn creates space for Van Basten to hit. It's hard to envisage a more tailor-made set-up for Rivera to shine in, with the solid platform behind, the width and pace beyond, with his fellow Milan legend as the consummate line-leader ahead.

It's likely both Souness and Van Hanegem will have their hands full with Edwards and Breitner. Because I see Baggio offering the least off the ball of any of the attacking players on the park. Breitner is the best midfielder on the pitch and has a passing range to rival Rivera - never mind the goal threat he poses - whether in big games (2 World Cup Final goals) or during his most productive club years (59 games, 35 goals).

 

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Third and final post from me. Shared because I've always wanted to indulge in some Marco. And who, in such a tight stalemate with defences on top, stands out as the most likely difference maker. Admittedly up against a formidable Forster/Moore duo, but nobody thrived in the most defensive era of all as much as he did.


Highlights:
  • The backheel flick at 0.52 - never seen that before, it's ridiculous.
  • The touch at 1.01, it's as close to a single-glued-touch control and finish as you'll see
  • The solo goals at 5.28, 5.41, 10.35, 10.56, 16.30 showing that ability more associated with R9 or Eusebio to leave defenders for dead and finish from range.
  • The range of finishing, left, right, head, short, long, delicate or thunderblaster - there was no goal he could not score. Probably only matched/bettered in an all-time sense by Pele.
  • The overheads at 11.40 and 12.53 where he is penned in by two men but still nets
  • Finding space out of nowhere against Adams and Kohler at 15.44
 

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Well played @Pat_Mustard. Flawless drafting from the get-go to produce a textbook Zona Mista that Trap and Bearzot would have been proud of. Only saw a stalemate in our game frankly, so not surprised it went down to a single vote.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Didn't want to sound one sided so commenting now.

The Gento-Rivera-Figo axis has a structural flaw in it for me.

2 variants of 4-2-3-1

1. Two orthodox wingers - This should ideally be paired with a support striker type of No.10 rather than an AM. For example Di Stefano with Gento

2. Attacking midfielder - There should be at least 1 wing forward among the wide players. For example, Hamrin with Rivera

Having two orthodox wingers with an AM reduces the effectiveness of the system.

Rivera's passes outwide would hardly be goal scoring chances created. His range to find runners reduces.

Similarly, Gento and Figo would have just 1 target in the box.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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@GodShaveTheQueen This is kind of what I was getting at with the goals issue. A support-striker 10 or a wide forward would have made it more balanced.
Yea, but I think you will find my reasoning fair with why I feel Van Basten would have a lot tougher time in this game than the last. I didn't think he could be fully marked out in your game.

Moore and Forster (When it comes to marking, I put him in the GOAT tier) with Thuram/Facchetti tucking in from opposite wings is at least a tier above Tresor/Stam if not more.
 

Physiocrat

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Yea, but I think you will find my reasoning fair with why I feel Van Basten would have a lot tougher time in this game than the last. I didn't think he could be fully marked out in your game.

Moore and Forster (When it comes to marking, I put him in the GOAT tier) with Thuram/Facchetti tucking in from opposite wings is at least a tier above Tresor/Stam if not more.
Pat's defence was better, that's certainly true although the quality gap I don't think was that different. Moore I think makes the biggest difference.
 

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Still thought that Skizzo had an edge, just not a significant one for me to make a definite decision. I don't think that his side lacked goals to be fair, especially with Breitner there.
 

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Yeah put a gun to my head and I would have voted Skizzo in this one
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Well played @Pat_Mustard. Flawless drafting from the get-go to produce a textbook Zona Mista that Trap and Bearzot would have been proud of. Only saw a stalemate in our game frankly, so not surprised it went down to a single vote.
Thanks mate and hard luck to you and @Skizzo Looked like you were on course for the victory as you were leading for most of the match but it somehow turned narrowly in my favour overnight.

Still thought that Skizzo had an edge, just not a significant one for me to make a definite decision. I don't think that his side lacked goals to be fair, especially with Breitner there.
Yeah put a gun to my head and I would have voted Skizzo in this one
Aye, there's a good spread of goals throughout Gio/Skizzo's team aside from van Basten, and if it was a weakness it was a minor one and strictly relative to the goal threat provided by Stoichkov and Baggio. In terms of individual quality, I felt the gap had narrowed to very thin margins but there's certainly a strong argument that the opposition shaded it. It's a crude way of looking at it, but using those ongoing positional polls:

Buffon > Schmeichel (#1 vs #3)
Lahm < Thuram (#6 vs #4)
Scirea > Moore (#4 vs #5)
McGrath < Forster (#19 vs #5, but McGrath's vote was diluted by also appearing in the ball-laying CB list)
Brehme < Facchetti (results aren't collated but Facchetti looks comfortably ahead there)
Edwards > Souness (Edwards is ahead in 9 lists, Souness ahead in 8 lists, with Edwards even topping one list).

Elsewhere, van Hanegem and Breitner are on different lists and while I'd struggle to choose between them and probably veer towards Wim, Breitner is always picked in drafts and Wim often misses out so Breitner is probably more highly rated. Van Basten will clearly finish above Kocsis and Figo above Conti. No idea how Gento vs Stoichkov and Rivera vs Baggio will play out in the voting. I prefer both Stoichkov and Baggio there but there's every chance Gento and Rivera will be higher ranked, so Gio/Skizzo could potentially win those individual comparisons 8-3 for what it's worth. I certainly couldn't have begrudged them the victory here although it's about fecking time that I won a final as my record in them has been dismal :D