Imagine you came into my pub and asked for a pint of beer and I served you one and you tasted it and said "this beer is shite I want another one or my money back" you'd be perfectly within your rights. But saying it was shite without having tasted it would not justify another pint or your money back.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Surely those Governments received consent by being elected into power in the first place?
Fair enough - the 15 year fluid transition would still be the case though (with the first stage being the May/Johnson style agreement). Whether the population of NI in those circumstances wanted alignment with the UK at the potential expense of the GFA; or continued alignment with the EU would still be ultimately up to them.
I'd imagine the UK would move towards a Switzerland or Canada relationship over that period of time and NI would stay closer to the EU (with the consent of both countries).
I don’t fall out with my relatives and friends. Why should I? We do talk about it though, it’s hard not to as it’s everywhere you look and certainly some pub debates with my friends have got heated but it’s all good. People will believe what they want and think what they want.
It’s sad you’ve felt you had to leave. Are you British born or moved here?
That isn't possible as noboby who voted leave had the faintest idea what leave involved or meant, as it was never articulated. Part of the reason we are still deadlocked all this time and effort later.
Except in your example the reason we think the beer is shite is because we just watched the bartender put the pint glass to the floor and piss in it. If you want to make sure it's piss before you return it fine, but you'd also be entitled to change your mind about drinking the pint of piss having watched the events leading up to it being served to you.
We know, now, what those events were, we know what the withdrawal agreement looks like, and we know it's piss. Asking people 'are you sure you want the piss?' is, of course, completely legitimate. If people decide that after all this they do want the piss it is, at least, an informed choice.
Because it's that simple. Clearly.
As did this one along with the majority of the HoC on a mandate to enact Brexit.
Yes it was contentious back then with Benn, Foot, Barbara Castle and co. against it but both sides spoke rubbish then as they did in 2016. The governments have given consent. I don't agree with referendums or direct democracy. How can people who have no expertise in these areas understand what the consequences will be.It was a contentious affair even back then Paul, if you voted in it (I won't call you old by the way, I was literally only born in that year) you should know. Ted Heath, addressing Eurosceptic concerns (don't quote me exactly) stated something along the lines that there would be no more integration without consent. That consent was never specifically given and here we are.
Having said that, now that politicians are now more closely scrutinised, don't think may of them know what they're talking about either.
I don't feel that old
.I think exactly that. People were so pissed off with their lot that they would rather suffer the economic consequences than vote with the government. If you have next to nothing then nothing isn't such a big drop is it?
It would if you knew it was poisoned.
Drink the piss you fecking traitor!
Who knew?
Annoying that we have been stuffubg around for years not knowing this easy solution.
Yes, time has flown by. A peaceful Europe was a big part of it. The 70s - grim but exciting.
The Uk sometimes forget their geographical position.
The EU have been poor in the past but have improved in recent years ironically.
Kuennsberg seems more than intelligent enough to grasp these matters if it was in her interest to do so. The trouble is, it isn't. She's more than willing to push out a specific message so long as it secures her access to the right sources, and this is buttressed by what I suspect to be a loose degree of ideological congruity with her sources. The same is true for the likes of Peston.
Imagine if you went to a pub and the pub had a sign that said closed Wednesday but you went by on a Thursday after work because you wanted a drink. So you get there and the pub is still closed and you see someone inside so you tap on the windows and they point to a sign that says "please do not tap on the windows" so then you motion to the person inside to come closer so that you can talk. The person inside rolls their eyes and walks over to you. When they get close you start shouting through the door so they can hear you and you say "today is thursday, why are you closed?" and the person says "well we aren't open 24 hours on thursday" and then you say "that's not what the sign says" and you start tapping on the window again agitatedly and then the person points to the sign about not tapping on the windows again and you apologize without really meaning it. then you tell the person that if they aren't open for certain times, they should have a sign up for that and the person points to another sign that is kind of hidden and it shows the times they aren't open so now there are three signs you see: the sign about open days, the sign about open times and the sign about not tapping on the window and you say (but really its more like yelling) "a lot of good that does me now eh?" and the person inside shrugs their shoulders and goes back inside. then you walk away and mutter to yourself and you kick a rock on the ground and a dog barks. that's brexit mate
No, we're British born and bred. I never thought that in my retirement years I'd be living in another country! The way we feel about the UK now, I can't see us going back unless we have to. I'm disappointed, sad, angry, despairing - I can't begin to tell you. I did a lot of door-knocking in support of the last European referendum in 1975, I've always felt it was a massive deal.
I agree with your point on direct democracy to a certain degree but the issue of Europe and our place in it has been a huge open ulcer on our parliament for 40 plus years.Yes it was contentious back then with Benn, Foot, Barbara Castle and co. against it but both sides spoke rubbish then as they did in 2016. The governments have given consent. I don't agree with referendums or direct democracy. How can people who have no expertise in these areas understand what the consequences will be.
Having said that, now that politicians are now more closely scrutinised, don't think may of them know what they're talking about either.
I don't feel that old
I firmly believe that at each treaty stage of ‘ever closer union’ the public should have been asked. No government was elected on the manifesto of signing treaties that further integrate us into the EU.
This mess would have been avoided or sorted out much earlier and wouldn’t have been so destructive.
Really sad you feel that way Penna.
I work in a very European company and we have a lot of French and Spanish people come and work with us. None have left us thankfully but most have had massive concerns over the last 3 years.
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What kind of pub is it?
I think it's a combination of a few factors tbh. I think some of the constitutional issues have been genuinely complex and it's quite clear which journalists do understand them and which don't. There's not really time for someone who doesn't already to go away and educate themselves on it, given the 24hr twitter newsfeed, so they try to spoof it by parroting the lines of those that do.
But I also think there's a fair proportion of journalists who do the exact same thing with incredibly basic points of Parliamentary process, of which Kuennsberg is one – whether feigned or genuine, that for some reason have been able to climb to senior positions.
The problem should surely be that people who don't or can't be bothered to understand what they're reporting on should be rooted out far before it becomes in their interests to be used as a patsy in return for access.
At the very least they should be able to cheerlead for parliamentary democracy and tell you why they find it all terribly exciting, rather than acting that this thing they've dedicated their life to reporting on is a chore.
Umm, it isn't up to them because they voted to remain, and yet here we are..
Leaving the sheer lameness of the intro aside for a mo', it must've been a posh mate to have a garlic press about 35 years ago.
I'm convinced brexit is going to be the thing that gives me blood pressure issues and male pattern baldness. That articleLeaving the sheer lameness of the intro aside for a mo', it must've been a posh mate to have a garlic press about 35 years ago.
All UK governments have used the EU as their scapegoat when it suits them to distract from their own failures.
The EU is not perfect and has its faults but still have not seen what the main objections that have suddenly been imposed on the UK are.
The big topics are Freedom of movement, this has been there since day 1. ECJ the same. Laws are mainly trade laws or minimum standards and yet the UK are saying they're going to maintain EU laws and standards so this makes no sense either. Sovereignty, every country is sovereign and the contributions argument is so pedantic it is untrue plus the Uk have the best deal in the EU.
What has the EU deprived the UK of? Being able to do these imaginary famous trade deals.
I really cannot see how the UK will benefit in the slightest by leaving the EU.
Reading anything from the DM won't help blood pressure!I'm convinced brexit is going to be the thing that gives me blood pressure issues and male pattern baldness. That article
I think this example fails in the eyes of many because they'd say the beer has not yet been received in any form.
In your example as a group you decide by a vote to go to a pub that sells beer, rather than a wine bar. Whilst voting it was obvious that there may have been numerous methods of consuming the beer once you got into the pub. As a group you would have no problem being asked by the bartender whether you wanted the beer to be in a pint glass, in a half, in a pitcher or thrown in your face. Likewise if the only options were a pint glass or thrown in your face you'd have no problem making that decision.
However as a group that had agreed to visit the pub you wouldn't expect the mere existence of numerous methods of consumption to bring the wine bar back into consideration. Let alone vote for any method of consumption in the wine bar compared with one method of consumption at the pub. By its very nature that would be a biased vote. The vote would have to be on the method of consumption in the pub.
Once you'd had your first drink in the pub of course you could ask the group whether they wanted another drink in the pub or to go to the wine bar. In fact you'd probably ask this before getting each round perpetually until the night ended.
I think NI should have the ultimate say in their relationship with the UK and the EU. They voted to remain but also didn't vote to leave the UK either. Realistically I think if the NI population had the options of full EU membership as a fully independent country outside of the UK, quasi-alignment as per the current agreement on the table or full UK membership with a hard border with ROI... I imagine they'd probably opt for the agreement on the table.
Crush theLeaving the sheer lameness of the intro aside for a mo', it must've been a posh mate to have a garlic press about 35 years ago.
63-14 =35?Leaving the sheer lameness of the intro aside for a mo', it must've been a posh mate to have a garlic press about 35 years ago.
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The other 16%?
I can understand rejecting a second referendum on principle. You've also made arguments why Brexit is not a disaster. Given all that I'm curious why you voted remain, what was the logic behind it, and why you'd vote remain again?
Hmmm what could they be I wonder?
Well what way would they swing once they reached the polling booth?
I'm not so sure about the first part. I think EU membership has always been a problem for governments, certainly the Conservatives. And I don't think any objections have SUDDENLY been imposed on the UK just that our integration into the EU has been so cackhanded and poorly managed.
The Maastricht and Lisbon treaty's were big documents that cemented the EU into way more than an economic entity. A referendum on what was to become the Lisbon treaty was promised by Labour at one point and got them a big vote in the GE at the time but they then totally disregarded that promise and Gordon Brown signed it anyway. That is one act that hasn't helped Euro-scepticism in this country, it was a blatant case of 'we daren't ask you in case you don't agree with us'.
Maybe the UK won't benefit, we know we will take a hit or two but maybe it will, until it's been tried we should honour the referendum.