Manchester United 1:1 Liverpool

The Brown Bull said:

An improvement but still disappointing. An opportunity lost as Liverpool were shite on the day and there for the taking.
We badly need a center forward who can hold the ball in attack and bring others into the play.

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Mario Mandzukic, apparently....

I was NOT a fan of the way Martial conducted himself on the pitch in the Liverpool match. It made no difference to the result, but when you come on to a pitch full of knackered team-mates, I want to see you press players and inject energy. Still, glad he's back and hoping he'll get a run at 9, fully fit, because if he does and the first team can stay together and fit, United will go on a run of wins.

Buster15 said:

I like the optimism in your last paragraph. However, one swallow not making a summer and all that. We will find out over the next set of matches.
The two fundamental concerns I have are - Ole very limited tactical awareness and the awful stand of coaching.

I watched the warm up yesterday and there was little clear structure.
All Rashford seemed to do was have a few shots.
And there were Lindelof Maguire and Rojo practicing headers.
Maybe I missed the rest but that is the type of thing you see in parks football.

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I think there were some similarities in warm ups between the two teams. We both played a version of that four-on-four passing game with two neutral players sweeping, and I assume we did something similar to the scousers who had a player in front of goal needing to control a driven cross and then a ball into them back to goal before shooting. Being at the other end of the ground it was difficult to see what we were doing, but it didn't look out of the ordinary to me.

12OunceEpilogue said:

I think there were some similarities in warm ups between the two teams. We both played a version of that four-on-four passing game with two neutral players sweeping, and I assume we did something similar to the scousers who had a player in front of goal needing to control a driven cross and then a ball into them back to goal before shooting. Being at the other end of the ground it was difficult to see what we were doing, but it didn't look out of the ordinary to me.

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Thank you for that.

The first half we expended a lot of energy. The second half we were tired and the high press came into play.
Energy is temporary. High press is permanent. That's why they are top with (imho) not especially great players. And we are not.

Buster15 said:

I believe that United has a poor record of not converting 1-0 leads to wins.
From what I saw, it was a very clear problem of being over run. Klopp brought on Chamberlain and Lallana. What was Ole response. Why did he not try to strengthen the midfield.
He only ever seems to do a one for one substitutions. And that is a serious problem.

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Looking at the bench, who could he had brought on that would have made a difference?

Thought a lot of players gave great accounts of themselves, particular McT, Andreas & James. Ultimately we lost because two weaknesses defensively (Young & Rojo) couldn't remain disciplined.

I think this is the formation we need to use going forward. In 95% of the games the front three should be Rashford - Martial - James, with Martial having the ability to hold up play and link up play whilst also being a goal threat. Martial almost playing the Firminho role but being more of a threat in front of goal.

In the other 5% you go a little more defensive and put Andreas in for Martial just like this game.

Pogba and McTominay would also be able to break forward more confidently with the ball in the games we dominate.
Maguire, Lindelof & Tuanzabe are all good enough to step forward with the ball too in this formation.

I hope we stick with this but I have a strong feeling it will be back to 4-2-3-1 in the next game.

Buster15 said:

Thank you for that.

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I could be wrong of course . I tried to have a particular look at our warm up after some of the negative 'leaks' from the camp but as a non-football coach at the other end of the ground who'd forgot his glasses everything looked fine.

I have heard many say this and I agree with that. We are a 1-goal team and we cannot go further than that. If we concede first, we crumble. If we score first, we still manage to lose to the lead. I think we need better mid-fielders and forward players. Having said all this, i think we did good with what we had against Liverpool. In the first half, we should've tried and scored another before coming out in the second half to defend it. 1 goal lead was not enough.

Siorac said:

They probably aren't but it's very hard to win three in a row, from a mental perspective. It's harder to rise to the challenge over and over again; player motivation might dwindle somewhat after so much success. Witness our 2000/01 or 2008/09 season - neither was remotely as good as the two that had preceded them.

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I'm not sure 2008/09 was pretty relentless. More points than the previous two. If you're the best team for a third season in a row then you should win it and that's what City still are for me. I take your point though, especially given that there's a gaping hole in their trophy cabinet they may focus on instead.

lysglimt said:

After seeing all 3 VAR-situations in replay like 10 times - I actually think the ref got all 3 correct (even if Halsey disagrees)

Mane - handballed - no doubt about it
Fred - never a handball

That leaves Lindelöf vs Origi. I actually agree that Lindelöf fouled him, and I thought it should have been a freekick if it hadn't been for the fact that Origi's touch was so poor that he had lost the ball when he was fouled. Origi takes a touch - and the ball rolls away from him, straight to McT - and immediately afterwards Lidelöf kicks him slightly.

So praise to the ref / var-team who got all 3 correct

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That's how I saw it. Origi poor touch forced him to crumple to the ground when he felt a slight kick on his leg. Origi knew he had lost the ball and embellished the slight touch. His embellishment didn't help his cause.

12OunceEpilogue said:

Aye, it was clear as day and though you expect a natural swing when a quality side such as Liverpool is chasing the game it was disappointing to not only see the deepening and narrowing of our shape but how ragged we looked on the counter. The lack of quality on the ball in midfield was apparent as was the uncertainly of our forwards who too often didn't know whether to stick or twist. Considering Ole expressly said he wanted to see runs in behind it was a shame to see how rarely we got James and Rashford (and Andreas, though the other two have the better pace) running towards goal with the ball in the second half.

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Normally a team ahead 1-0 against a quality opponent will try not to go into a shell until the 70' mark. I think the lack of quality subs available forced OGS to retract after the break. He didn't have Lingard, Matic or Jones as subs so he knew he had to start conserving energy at the break.

OleTheGreat said:

I have heard many say this and I agree with that. We are a 1-goal team and we cannot go further than that. If we concede first, we crumble. If we score first, we still manage to lose to the lead. I think we need better mid-fielders and forward players. Having said all this, i think we did good with what we had against Liverpool. In the first half, we should've tried and scored another before coming out in the second half to defend it. 1 goal lead was not enough.

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Which every fan and his three dogs knew, but our manager didn’t.

gerdm07 said:

Normally a team ahead 1-0 against a quality opponent will try not to go into a shell until the 70' mark. I think the lack of quality subs available forced OGS to retract after the break. He didn't have Lingard, Matic or Jones as subs so he knew he had to start conserving energy at the break.

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Yeah I agree. The lack of quality on the bench, not to mention on the pitch in the first place with recruitment/injuries, ties Ole's hands to an extent.

Ole had a recognisable plan yesterday and it almost worked. Three at the back, a five man midfield of varying (mobile) shape, but included two wide men and an almost recognisable No.10 and then two fast 'attack dogs' rampaging in from left and right up front. First half it worked very well, not so good in the second.

Great to take two points off Liverpool and today they are moaning like mad; we 'parked the bus'; the ref was against them.. and eh soft lad, that VAR's, definitely anti-scouse

Its never their fault!! (heh, heh, heh!)

Joking apart those two fullbacks of theirs absolutely priceless, fast, direct and can pick out and place a pass on a sixpence...wow!

Post match OGS on MOTD.

We risked it. Risked it? Its says the mentality in two words. I believe in SODS law. The scousers were looking to = Citeh winning streak & there in lies the truth sods law they were not going to continue it. I was also convinced that UTD would lose the against the MAGs. So for next matches well I definitely think UTD will lose one if they go about it the wrong way. If they set up right then they will be fine as long as they can score two goals and there in lies the issue.

Shark said:

Which every fan and his three dogs knew, but our manager didn’t.

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He knew it, but unless you haven't noticed, we can't score 2 against even the crappest teams, so why would we suddenly score 2 against the league leaders?

Obviously, it was far better than I (and most of us here) feared, some of which - some - had to do with Liverpool being ways below their best. We were also part of the reason. We were good in the first half but I still disagree with this sitting back tactic and trying to hit teams on the break: it's as if no teams have defenders with pace, and our pace isn't all that great anyway, plus the fact if you break away your passing has to be good (as in the days of Beckham, Giggs, Scholes and Keane - and even then I was not a fan of sitting back). Our passing is terrible at times.

Sitting back invites teams on to you and they are likely to get one golden opportunity at least and once you stop playing at a high tempo, it's almost impossible to get it back. Also, we never create enough chances to risk that. All that said, I would certainly have taken a draw at 4.29pm and both Fred and Perreira probably had their best games in a United shirt.

I listened to the radio commentary, then watched it later. Radio pointed out two things, which telly didn't seem to: a) the Lindelof incident: 5Live said VAR had agreed with the ref that there was no foul and 2) Young was abysmal for their goal. I agree with both.

I'd like to believe this will kick-start our season but I am totally unconvinced. We never kicked on from the Chelsea game, and I'm afraid I have to agree with Souness: we have to find a way to play on the front foot against lesser teams (ie anyone but City and Liverpool). I can't say this had made me any more confident that we will beat (let alone bury) Norwich, Bournemouth and Brighton.

Sandikan said:

He knew it, but unless you haven't noticed, we can't score 2 against even the crappest teams, so why would we suddenly score 2 against the league leaders?

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He had Martial on the bench, who he only decided to bring on in the 80th, for the player that scored our only goal and was still full of energy. It’s daft decisions like that, which kill us and he’s been making these decisions on a consistent basis.

Buster15 said:

I like the optimism in your last paragraph. However, one swallow not making a summer and all that. We will find out over the next set of matches.
The two fundamental concerns I have are - Ole very limited tactical awareness and the awful stand of coaching.

I watched the warm up yesterday and there was little clear structure.
All Rashford seemed to do was have a few shots.
And there were Lindelof Maguire and Rojo practicing headers.
Maybe I missed the rest but that is the type of thing you see in parks football.

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I'd agree with you that there are concerns over the tactical and technical coaching. The focus on fitness is good but there's more to football than that. However, we don't actually know what is going on at the training pitch. It could be that Ole's system is just taking time to be implemented. Plus he needed at least three more signings to add to what he did get and has also had a lot of injuries to cope with. Like you say, the coming several matches will tell us more. We cannot sit back and play counterattack against Norwich I don't think. That only works against the biggest teams.

Against Partizan I would rest pretty much everyone who is nailed on to start against Norwich. We are already in a decent position in the EL group and need to focus on the PL for now. Team against Partizan:

Martial Greenwood
Mata
Lingard Matic Garner
Williams Rojo Jones Dalot
Romero

It is a good opportunity to get the likes of Martial up to speed and also give more minutes to some of the Academy players. We cannot keep starting the likes of Rashford every game. Bring on the likes of Gomes and Chong as substitutes as well.

Shark said:

He had Martial on the bench, who he only decided to bring on in the 80th, for the player that scored our only goal and was still full of energy. It’s daft decisions like that, which kill us and he’s been making these decisions on a consistent basis.

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A semi fit Martial.

Sandikan said:

A semi fit Martial.

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The problem is that he also took off Rashford when we were or should have been chasing a winning goal. What can a half fit Martial do in 10 minutes?

Considering the absolute joke that is our squad, I'd say thats a good point and a decent performance.

In fact, Liverpool should be embarrassed that they weren't able to beat a team starting Pereria, Young, Fred, and Rojo.

Finally we got to be on the other end of the "game raising c*nts" experience.

I'm dreading the Norwich game now.... I can't help but see a two steps further back, after this half-step forward. Oh well. Maybe SAF can hang out around the place a bit more this week and whip this lot into shape by his mere presence alone. One can dream.

What is also very annoying about this result is the fact that Adam Lallana has spent years on the sidelines, away from the limelight, only to pop and ruin everything.

gerdm07 said:

That's how I saw it. Origi poor touch forced him to crumple to the ground when he felt a slight kick on his leg. Origi knew he had lost the ball and embellished the slight touch. His embellishment didn't help his cause.

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This is exactly the reason why he didn't get the call. Clearly went looking for it after he Lukkakued his first touch.

I was fearing for the worst, but the team turned up for the game.

Satisfied with the effort, but disappointed with the result.

Shark said:

The problem is that he also took off Rashford when we were or should have been chasing a winning goal. What can a half fit Martial do in 10 minutes?

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In a perfect world, us home drawing 1-1, that would be the case.
But we were gassed by then, and it was only ever going to be a hold on job.

GenZRed said:

What is also very annoying about this result is the fact that Adam Lallana has spent years on the sidelines, away from the limelight, only to pop and ruin everything.

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All their subs smacked of sods law unlikely hero though didn't they.

It took me a min or so to recognise who the bloody hell the Ox was, he's been out for so long.
Then Lallana, then Keita.

One of these 3 was always going to ruin it.

GenZRed said:

What is also very annoying about this result is the fact that Adam Lallana has spent years on the sidelines, away from the limelight, only to pop and ruin everything.

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I've always like Lallana. At some point I really thought England should have built a team around him. I feel sorry for him that injuries halted his career. The past 2 years I even thought we should have tried to buy him for a song and take a chance.

Still pissed off about the game. Going into it, most people would have taken a draw, but based on how the game went, we should have gone away with the win. I always felt we were in control of the game. Even when Liverpool had the bulk of the ball in the second half, at no point did I feel we were going to concede.

croadyman said:

Only way I can see us improving our attacking play against teams who sit deep and defend is by buying a creative midfielder in January, what we did today will not be effective against teams like that so need someone to unlock the door in those kind of games.

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Or just move Pogba 25 yards further up the pitch and get that elusive right winger who can beat his man.

I'm disappointed with conceding the late equalizer, especially in that manner, but thrilled with the result against the vastly better side -- and us being without two regular starters and one just coming back from injury. We're just a much poorer side without Pogba, at least a highly motivated Pogba.

Liverpool were without Salah, but they are the defending CL champion and had gone undefeated in their last whatever-teen number of LP matches.

Overall, well done.

Shark said:

Which every fan and his three dogs knew, but our manager didn’t.

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Ole told the team that the win against Liverpool is the most prestigious thing ever. i guess the team took it the wrong way and started defending deep. Cannot blame Ole for this, he said fight.

OleTheGreat said:

Ole told the team that the win against Liverpool is the most prestigious thing ever. i guess the team took it the wrong way and started defending deep. Cannot blame Ole for this, he said fight.

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Of course you can.
It was blindingly obvious to everyone that in the second half Liverpool took control of the midfield. And it was equally obvious that we badly needed to strengthen ours to deal with that threat.
But simply swapping Martial for a hard working Rashford was not going to be the answer.

lex talionis said:

I'm disappointed with conceding the late equalizer, especially in that manner, but thrilled with the result against the vastly better side -- and us being without two regular starters and one just coming back from injury. We're just a much poorer side without Pogba, at least a highly motivated Pogba.

Liverpool were without Salah, but they are the defending CL champion and had gone undefeated in their last whatever-teen number of LP matches.

Overall, well done.

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It's interesting taking a week out, and then signing into RedCafe.. after the game we all share immediate views and passions, part of the reason we all love the game. I thought it was an improvement, but no more than that. We showed a degree of intensity that had been lacking.. but I don't think either side 'played' good football. How many chances created etc.. it was a typical Utd-Liverpool game. At the end of our previous dismal performance, I stated that I felt we would be ok in this game, and I feel we were exactly that....ok. Rashford played with less flossin' and more direct instinct.. he should play this way all the time. When he thinks, his game drops off. That was the best I have seen from Pereira, but I don't think he, nor anyone was outstanding. I still consider him an average player at best.

However, Daniel James is our leading light so far this season, definitely. I like him, he makes things happen, and now, others are responding to his game, and not the other way around.

Liverpool played a strangely odd game... they were pretty poor, and extremely nervous. Not quite the finished product yet.

Jeffthered said:

It's interesting taking a week out, and then signing into RedCafe.. after the game we all share immediate views and passions, part of the reason we all love the game. I thought it was an improvement, but no more than that. We showed a degree of intensity that had been lacking.. but I don't think either side 'played' good football. How many chances created etc.. it was a typical Utd-Liverpool game. At the end of our previous dismal performance, I stated that I felt we would be ok in this game, and I feel we were exactly that....ok. Rashford played with less flossin' and more direct instinct.. he should play this way all the time. When he thinks, his game drops off. That was the best I have seen from Pereira, but I don't think he, nor anyone was outstanding. I still consider him an average player at best.

However, Daniel James is our leading light so far this season, definitely. I like him, he makes things happen, and now, others are responding to his game, and not the other way around.

Liverpool played a strangely odd game... they were pretty poor, and extremely nervous. Not quite the finished product yet.

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Assessing performances really is a game of relative perspective. Ok is a fair way of putting it, but relative to expectations as well as recent form United actually put in a fantastic performance really only marred by one defensive lapse of concentration. That's one too many, but still only one.

What we've struggled with this season and in recent years is putting in this kind of performance against lower table clubs. Newcastle was a perfect example of that, but not the only one.

From a Liverpool perspective, and I haven't checked RAWK to confirm this, they have to be really disappointed in their performance and must feel like they gifted us the point, even though I hold that we were flat out the better side on the day until we went into a shell for the last 25-30 minutes.

We hung on for the point, which all of us would have taken before the match, but I was disappointed to see us pull bodies back that early in the game. There's a point in time in a match, at least against a better side, when you should pull bodies back, but not at the 60-65 minute mark. Sure, Liverpool were gangstering James and it worked but we could have done more to pressure Liverpool's back line at least to take some of the pressure off our back line.

But it ended the way it did, solid performances all the way around, except for Rojo in the second half, which is the line you have to cross over between horrific -- which I think even the most partisan United supporter would concede we've displayed recently -- and outstanding, which we're still very far from displaying any time soon.