Dammit, beat me to it.Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Dammit, beat me to it.I've not argued it won't be a disaster because I don't know for sure but I do believe we are a big enough economy and a smart enough country to cope with whatever we do.
Last time: I voted remain because I work for a part of one of the biggest scientific companies in the world. The sector I work in (Agricultural research) conducts trials all over the world. I work very closely with colleagues in France, Spain, Germany, Italy, Romania, Poland, Greece, Italy and so on. I was concerned about what impact it would have on the UK branch of this company and still am. So far it has had no impact and there seems to be no mad panic at managment level but IF there was a second referendum, I would vote the same way.
So far it hasn't undermined client confidence but I do worry, of course I do.
It clearly won't benefit, unless you think that every logical possible reason for why it won't benefit that's already been given is nonsense and that hypothetical and fantasy "maybe" scenarios are actually a possibility?
You haven't even left the EU yet and it's already having all sorts of negative repercussions on the UK, what could possibly make you think that there is any way the UK will benefit from leaving the EU? I have asked you so many times today to give some concrete facts and back up your "points" and you just keep ignoring the question
Regardless of my own position on Brexit, I do wonder what the actual point of this discussion thread is given the advocacy/bias emphasis you mention.
Can we assume that if you were employed by a British Company then, one that solely operated in Britain for arguements sake, that you then would have voted Leave?
Most arguments against a second referendum are stupid
I mean i'm pretty sure that on QT last week one of the panels argument against a second referendum is that it won't be respecting the countries democratic right...
They will. It will come in the Border Poll legislated for in the GFA. But it wont be a choice to go as an Independent Country but to reunite with the ROI and therefore remain in the EU.
Why would you think I had any concrete facts on why it would benefit us to leave? If I had then I would have voted Leave. I voted remain. You may not believe that but it's true.
Don't read my despair at remain MP's for anything other than that, I think Swinson, Starmer and MP's like Soubry have been massivley damaging to our politics over the last 3 years. Now I'm not saying that JRM and Boris and Farage haven't either but the political posturing over something so massive has been embarrassing to watch. Corbyn cannot bring himself to say 'the deal', it has to be 'This Tory deal' all the time, like even if it was a great deal he wouldn't support it simply on the grounds a Tory negotiated it. Ridiculous.
I absolutely believe that our democracy is being ripped apart and new precedents are being made each week. These precedents will haunt us for years to come.
Right now there are massive efforts to either overturn this result or have a 2nd referendum.
Every possible weapon in the parliamentary book is being deployed including recourse to the supreme court.
There were a million people marching in London on Saturday.
Would we be seeing anything like this if it had been 52-48 the other way? I don't thinks so.
Even if there was dissent over the result it would have been put soundly to bed with remainers crying losers consent from every quarter?
How long, in that situation, would Leavers have had to wait to have got another bite of the cherry?
Every possible weapon in the parliamentary book is being deployed including recourse to the supreme court.
There were a million people marching in London on Saturday.
Would we be seeing anything like this if it had been 52-48 the other way? I don't thinks so.
Even if there was dissent over the result it would have been put soundly to bed with remainers crying losers consent from every quarter?
How long, in that situation, would Leavers have had to wait to have got another bite of the cherry?
No, probably not, on the whole I think it would be better we stayed in but that is not to say I immediately think all my Brexit voting peers and family are idiots. I am not a massive fan of the EU.
I also stated earlier that my in-laws are Greek. Their family businesses have all suffered by being inside the EU. We get a lot of Spanish people coming to work in the UK too and a lot of them are no fans of the EU either. It doesn't make them bad people. Same with some of our Italian colleagues. Euro-scepticism isn't a sole reservation of the UK.
that's like asking what the point of a Utd forum is if 95% of the members support them.
Because you said earlier that you know people who voted to Leave who had made a lot of good points as to why they did so, but you haven't been able to give me any of those points. So.. did they make good points or what?
Most people whatever their views on Brexit would probably agree this is a complex issue to unravel, but the concept of Leave or Remain are simple ones, 'the devil as they say is in the details' and IMO neither side was totally honest or even fully understanding of the positions they took in the Referendum, and probably nobody ever could.
Leave voters it would seem by and large wanted out because of a number/variety of issues, one of which for the older generation seems to be they were never consulted on the 'closer political Union' being brought about through Maastricht, Lisbon and other treaties enacted in their name by the then UK Governments of the day. Remain voters were it appears almost exclusively driven by thoughts and worries about current economic issues and not about closer political union and the direction of travel of the EU.
So one group appears to be talking about the here and now, the immediate economic implications, whereas the other seemingly is about where we are going in the future and, it would seem are willing to accept problems in the here and now, to secure a different future.
The likely truth is Leave finds it difficult to specify just what would happen in the future, outside the EU; whereas Remain seems to not want to talk about where we might end up in the future if we stay in the EU. Subsequently both continue to mouth out about and argue from a base position, that really tells us nothing, and so around and around we go on the wheel.
Leave voters it would seem by and large wanted out because of a number/variety of issues, one of which for the older generation seems to be they were never consulted on the 'closer political Union' being brought about through Maastricht, Lisbon and other treaties enacted in their name by the then UK Governments of the day. Remain voters were it appears almost exclusively driven by thoughts and worries about current economic issues and not about closer political union and the direction of travel of the EU.
So one group appears to be talking about the here and now, the immediate economic implications, whereas the other seemingly is about where we are going in the future and, it would seem are willing to accept problems in the here and now, to secure a different future.
The likely truth is Leave finds it difficult to specify just what would happen in the future, outside the EU; whereas Remain seems to not want to talk about where we might end up in the future if we stay in the EU. Subsequently both continue to mouth out about and argue from a base position, that really tells us nothing, and so around and around we go on the wheel.
My worry is these weapons will now become our way of politics.
yes I think once the cat is out of the bag so to speak its going to be hard to get it back in there...
its a shame and I hope we dont end up with a so clearly politicized supreme court as they have in America
The more politicians take things to the Supreme court the more likelihood that it becomes politicised. It is a dangerous precedent.
agreed - though in the short term I dont see it changing
especially if we have a GE and a minority government next
Err...no it isn't.
In my view the more options the merrier. NI as an independent nation who can apply to the EU, NI integrated into ROI and therefore in the EU, NI within the UK with a hard border, NI in a quasi WA type relationship with both. The same should apply to Scotland. Every general election whereby the largest party has a key manifesto pledge that includes a referendum on independence should get one during that parliament.
- They are all keen on political and financial independence
- None like the level of bureaucracy that comes with the EU
- They are all keen to avoid being taken into further political and fiscal integration - on this point I can see the appeal.
- They want to break free from the jurisdiction of the ECJ - this isn't something I see as particularly important
the bloody ruddy kind
I don’t doubt anything you say above, it’s just in your original post you stated ‘civil war or worst’ and I was trying to ascertain what you meant by that.
Regarding the implementation of first referendum: I’m a keen believer in allowing things to play out according to the natural flow of energy. The fact that BrExit is proving so hard to deliver tells me it’s the wrong thing to do. If it truly was ‘the will of the people’ it would have been so much easier to get across the line.
This decision is a massive moment in our nations history, and we have to be sure it’s what the majority wants. I’m not sure it is: there has to be another check.
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I voted to leave because I think the external trade barriers and regulatory restrictions that prevent mostly poor black people from trading with us on the same terms as mostly wealthy white people is both incredibly racist but is also deadly to many in those countries who are being prevented from earning an honest living.
I don't like the idea of a cartel designed to enrich wealthy white people at the expense of poor black people.
This has been the entire sticking point of Brexit. Its a complete non runner.
I mean, it definitely is. Here's another one..Err...no it isn't.
Most of the forum hate Trump - why bother with a dedicated thread to him, either?
Agreed - giving them the option to disregard such a non-starter shouldn't be an issue though.
Taking off a car wheel would be difficult if you were taking nuts off while someone else was putting them back on or hiding the wheel brace. Things are as easy as you make them sammsky1. I'm not saying it would have been a doddle unpicking 30+ years of integration but if everyone was on board (or at least pretended to be) it wouldn't have been anywhere near this hard.
They're all terrible points though, and outright untrue in most cases. Do you personally think they're good points, as you said earlier?
But they're not terrible to those that voted for them Massive Spanner, that's why they voted for them and how do you see they're untrue?
The EU are not involved in British politics nor are they involved in how the UK spend their annual budget of £800bn.
Which bureaucracy do you mean - trading bureacracy will quadruple at a very very conservative estimate?
Just because they're not terrible to those who voted for them doesn't make them not terrible, unless you think any opinion anyone has ever had for doing something is valid because it's their opinion?
They aren't true at all. The UK is politically and financially independent, unless you count the financial independence being out of the EU would bring that potentially tanks your economy is being a good thing. All 4 points are essentially the same thing but worded differently anyway, aka. I think the EU is controlling us and I don't like it, even though they're not and the UK is fully in control of itself.
Do you have anything to back up what they're saying, like how the EU is governing the UK politically and financially or how the ECJ is such a problem?
I get your point, but remaining in the EU won't knock 6.9% off GDP for no good reason.
What is your point?
Leaving, to any sane and sensible person, is an idiotic idea which has a significant negative effect on the economy of the country for years to come. It's not surprising that people are reacting against it.
They are still yet to sell any benefits whatsoever to leaving the EU, only the will of the people which keeps being repeated, ad nauseum.
Jesus, what?
The EU already has trade agreements with a lot of those "poor black people's" countries and is negotiating with others. What's Britain going to do outside of the EU that's better than that exactly?
Funny how you're looking out for the poor black people there despite in an earlier post stating that one of the reasons you voted Brexit is for tighter immigration rules.
Bercow refuses the motion.
Bercow is grand stand
That's a very novel and laudable argument.
Considering a large portion of leavers are xenophobic racists, that might actually convince them to change their vote to remain.
No meaningful vote until the WAB has passed.
You said yourself ‘if everyone was on board’ . They are blatantly not, which kind of proves my point!