This. The murder charge is just a quirk of the system.
Dalian Atkinson dies after being tasered by police
- Thread starter Jippy
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Got in one, didn't I?
Not really. I'm criticising my experience with a small number of people I have personally met, with a specific hate of thousands of people they have never met. It's a very fair criticism and based on experience of individuals, not based on inherent biases against masses of strangersThe irony
This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read.
So many disgusting comments against cops. Call Batman next time you're mugged feckers.
How I remember this thread!
Dunno. When was the last time you saw a group that spend their working lives in frequently dangerous situations yet are still classed as the enemy and automatically found guilty in the public eye whenever something goes wrong?
I mean, coppers ARE wankers but they're at least 20-30% human-ish as well.
Don’t think you got my point
How else are people supposed to restrain people? Not saying police brutality has never taken place.... but social media can take things out of context. If an officer is facing a one violent person is he supposed to keep it “fair” by trying to subdue him himself while his colleagues stand back?
Did you not suggest police need to be more heavy handed if we're to stop crime rising?
Ok. I get you. The U.K. and USA are not the only two countries on earth.
I'm mixed race and raised in Sandwell - 12th most deprived Borough in the UK when I last checked.
Believe me, I know all about profiling.
But the 64% increase was 23 deaths - a rise from 14 the year before. Percentages shouldn't be used on such a small sample size - which in itself is a mark of their relative tameness.
Theres wankers in every line of work - though the police service does seem to attract more than average. Still, look at the situation in Hong Kong - how many people would be truly scared to clash with UK police, compared to most other countries in the world.
What?
Hmm, I think youre being a little bit naughty here, as are the independent with those headlines, in particular the first one. Putting out that 64% figure is click bait. Considering we’re talking a jump from 15 to 24. Of course deaths in custody are horrific for everyone involved but what you’re trying to suggest and imply here is not helpful.
For starters ‘police contact’ could mean anything as little as the use of handcuffs. You can’t just throw around ‘deaths after police contact are a major issue’ because it blatantly isn’t. When you consider there are over 120,000 officers in the uk coming into contact with members of the public multiple times on a daily basis I would suggest a figure of ‘24’ in custody in a year does not show there are sinister things going on. Especially as the same article states in majority of those cases, drugs, alcohol and mental health are involved.
You’ve also said it’s getting worse and worse’ well no it isn’t, and none of those articles imply that either. It simply states there were more than in the previous year.
I’m sorry you have had bad experiences with coppers. I myself am black and grew up in a less than desirable area but my experience of police growing up was fine, I couldn’t name a single time I was treated unfairly or stereotyped. I guess I didn’t have the misfortune of coming across the small minority of coppers who unfortunately are bad eggs. But you get bad eggs in all walks of life, there are racists everywhere, in all jobs and yes it’s worse when they’re police because they are the ones entrusted with upholding the law but it’s up to people to be educated enough to understand that a minority do not represent the majority.
Not really dumb. It's true.
It truly Is amazing what calls come in and who from.
Local active drug dealer (and charges for a variety of gbh and assault police) attends the station to report that he is in considerable debt to a certain OCG and they have attended at his house with a sawn off shotgun.
This is the type of media which clearly has an agenda and feeds the anti police individuals who aren't willing to think about the findings just incase it spoils their tinted glasses...
True story.. Police officer goes to a call of a man self harming with a blade. Forced entry to his flat and found the male in the middle or stabbing himself in his vitals.
Officer tasered him in an attempt to save his life and get him.
Guy dies, guess what it gets recorded as... Death after contact.
Nothing in those articles indicates police have actually caused any death at all....
No, it's incredibly dumb. He's making the point that 'all these normal citizens who hate police, funny how they don't seem to hate them when they're the victim of a crime!' well, fecking duh. The same way if I don't like doctors I'm not going to stay at home if I have a heart attack, or like Eboue said if my car breaks and I hate mechanics because they rip you off, that I'll just go to University and learn to be a mechanic instead of just taking it to a mechanic, or if I distrust politicians I'm not going to abstain from voting my entire life. Likewise if I hate rich corporate bankers who feck us over on a daily basis, I don't keep my fecking money in my mattress I keep it in a bank. It's a dumb point that means absolutely nothing.
Do tell how a lot of us abuse the posistion entrusted to us? Sure you get your bad apples. I have met a few. But trust me in this day and age they dont last long. Everything we do is scrutinised and questioned. We have to justify every decision we make and these decisions are often made in highly stressful situations.
One day for me just last month was dealing with a farming accident where a tractor had gone over a mans head squashing it like a melon. Then straight from that to a young girl who had been hit off her bike by a motorbike. She had lost most of the skin and flesh on her foot so you could see bone. I held her hand until paramedics arrived. I am not looking for any praise or even expect you to like the Police. We are human though and we see more trauma and darkness in one shift than most see in a lifetime.
We face a section of society every day that hate us before we even open our mouths because all they see is the uniform. I guess you have to ask yourself what kind of society it would be without any form of defence against people doing whatever they wanted with no consequence.
Is there a group other than the Police that you should contact when someone comes round your house with a sawn off shotgun instead?
Just for future reference like, Citizens advice maybe?
People who have problems with the police don't necessarily want to get rid of the police altogether... Usually it isn't even the concept of police that disturbs them, it's just a result their own life experiences. I do wonder if all these cops love their landlord or whether half of them sleep in their cars?
(I have to add that I've never had any problem with British police personally and think they are generally among the best in the world, which obviously says nothing about the 2 in this case)
(I have to add that I've never had any problem with British police personally and think they are generally among the best in the world, which obviously says nothing about the 2 in this case)
It's nice that you were able to explain it to the thickos so eloquently.
Bullshit. Unless you're referring exclusively to criminals then nobody hates simply the uniform. What you face is a section of society every day that hate you because of their direct experience with that uniform their entire lives, or their families direct experience with that uniform their entire lives and how they were unfairly wronged by it and that instead of owning your shit and working hard to make it better and actually engage with the people who are affected you instead try to justify it by saying sometimes you see bad things like somehow it evens out.
You kind of just proved my point with your reply. It doesn't matter anyway. I know what my colleagues and I do every day. I dont need to justify or argue with anybody about it on here. Sorry you have had bad experiences with the Police. Im bowing out of this one now.
All I've proven with my reply is that you would rather deflect blame than ask questions about why you get the sentiment you do. Like I said you do in the post you replied to. It's easier to assume that people just hate you which makes it their fault than look inward and ask why that might be because it might be your fault.
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This is the same old rhetoric that comes from coppers. They always come out with the same old justifications. I know a few people that have worked in the police and the stories they tell certainly paint a different picture to what this guy is trying to portray. It's always just a 'few bad apples'. They must use that line in cop school. But having a 'few bad apples' is not good enough. Deflecting it onto society is just bad form.
You make some fair points but also some presumptions too. Yes there's people who have a dislike and have been genuinely wronged but there's also those who haven't and simply see it as being cool to hate on the cops without any personal reasoning or logic. That said you also have the issue that the police have a job to do that often people don't like i.e. they have to enforce rules and the law. No one likes being told what to do. Instantly you have to accept you will face more criticism and negative opinion around the decisions you make based on that alone. it's also important to consider that very few people actually have regular interactions with the police and as such can often form an entire opinion on the service in general based on that one traffic stop that wasn't a good experience as they were spoken to poorly. I always say to cops it's really important you consider this when you interact with people as that one tiny thing you may say or do can shape that persons whole conception of the police on a whole.
It's also important to say plenty of officers do own their shit and work very very hard to build and improve relationships within the community.
I don’t understand what people are not understanding. Obviously it goes without saying that not every fecking officer is racist. The gripe that a lot of us have is the SYSTEMIC racism e.g. the disproportionate stop and search against black people than white people.
My dad is a respectable man who in his 65 years of living has never once had any trouble with the law yet has been stopped more times than one can imagine just because he is a black man driving a Mercedes. I also have examples of black male friends who have faced racial profiling by the police.
Also, I saw one or two people in the thread mention that the police are treated more unfairly by the public than any other profession. Err, yes, the police are of course going to be held to a higher standard because they are SUPPOSED to be protectors and servers of the public but how many times have we seen videos of them abusing their power?
Anyway back to Dalian. I do agree that a murder charge does seem harsh but as others have said maybe they haven’t released the full details. I hope he R.I.P though and that this brings even a smidge of justice to his family.
My dad is a respectable man who in his 65 years of living has never once had any trouble with the law yet has been stopped more times than one can imagine just because he is a black man driving a Mercedes. I also have examples of black male friends who have faced racial profiling by the police.
Also, I saw one or two people in the thread mention that the police are treated more unfairly by the public than any other profession. Err, yes, the police are of course going to be held to a higher standard because they are SUPPOSED to be protectors and servers of the public but how many times have we seen videos of them abusing their power?
Anyway back to Dalian. I do agree that a murder charge does seem harsh but as others have said maybe they haven’t released the full details. I hope he R.I.P though and that this brings even a smidge of justice to his family.
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If it was me personally, I'd feel encouraged that the police are actively out there stopping and searching.
It's one of those, that you can take it personel or understand the wider picture the police are doing.
All stop searching obviously require grounds.
I probably hear a report every weekend, black male, black Mercedes dealing large quantity of drugs in the area, probably on false plates, carrying weapons...
What do you want cops supposed to do?
Feck me.
Pretty sure thats not in the job description
Actually, evidence has shown that stop and search isn’t as effective as people think because it doesn’t actually tackle the root issue of why people are even dealing drugs and/or carrying knives in the first place, and I don’t know about you but I don’t think by virtue of someone being a black man with a hoodie it is enough grounds for stop and search. And obviously if police are disproportionately stopping one demographic it’s going to look like they more so than anyone are dealing drugs that’s why people like you think that ‘every weekend’ there are black men in nice cars hoarding large amounts of drugs.
There was a black guy recently who was doing work for his community in I think Croydon (south London) or somewhere; he was equally stopping and searching white and black boys and he actually confiscated more weapons from white boys than the black boys.
Firstly, 17% of Stop & Search ends in arrest.
https://fullfact.org/crime/stop-and-search-england-and-wales/
That's not a significant enough number that it justifies the breakdown in trust between the police & local community.
On top of that black people are 9x as likely to be stopped & searched than white people: https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures...e-and-the-law/policing/stop-and-search/latest
Have you been stopped & searched? It's not a pat down like when you go through security in the Airport - the police officers are often very aggressive, with no regard for your possession or personal space. My brother got stopped & searched and the police officers broke his phone, tore his clothes and gripped his wrists so tight that it re-aggravated an old sports injury, and he needed physio to fix it long term. Also it's just embarrassing as feck, and can induce trauma in people too. No compensation, no apology, and no guarantee it won't happen again. Do you think someone like my brother is 'encouraged' by police presence in the aftermath?
So not only have we found that stop & search is not effective, doesn't deter crime but does create distrust within the community & causes trauma for the innocent ones involved, also by heavily targeting 1 racial demographic it creates stereotypes - are you still 'encouraged' by these archaic tactics, because you are unlikely to be affected by them?
Your taking these figures to literal and not thinking about them in actual working practice.
17% arrests from stop searches. I'm not surprised.. Example.. Group of 5 suspect looking individuals with enough grounds for search.. Search them all, find drugs on one.
He gets arrested.
This scenario could easily happen twice a shift.. That's 20% right there..
Not to mention just because these 87% were not arrested doesn't mean the stop searches were unfair. They could have easily plugged or dropped anything down their pants. In the real world there isn't enough time or cops to search out of public view to check these areas if there is a belief of that..
9x more likely to be stopped by white person? Not through lack of trying, there is simply more white cops.
I work a large city and would say (in my experience) the split public is 60% white and 40% alternate ethnicity.
In my years as a serving police officer I have worked with 1 female black officer and 4 Asian police officers.
##sorry I miss read the second figure.
Your example of your brother screams as if he was resisting to me. But of course it could be these "bad apple" cops as discussed.
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The point remains that stop & search isn't effective.
How do you identify when someone is 'suspect looking'? This is how unconscious biases kick in, and is part of the reason why black people are so heavily target.
And if criminals can get rid of evidence easily before being stopped & searched - you're just proving how ineffective they actually are.
I said black people are 9x more likely to be stopped, in comparison to a white person - I didn't say anything about the racial make up of the cops involved.
My brother wasn't resisting. And there's plenty more anecdotal stories too that tell a similar tale - I'm inclined to believe it's part of their training.
A 'bad apple' only exists because the system allows them to exist - for example my brother wrote a complaint to the local police, and received a call to say they had received the complaint, nothing further after that - he didn't get questioned, they didn't care to look at his injuries or physio reports, nothing. He followed up with them 3x and they said it was 'in progress', until eventually they decided amongst themselves that no further action was to be taken'
So even if the cops involved were 'bad apples' their colleagues enabled them, making them bad apples too.
Most forces, body worn video is mandatory for all stop searches. Pretty much quashes nearly every complaint in my experience.
If its not used, well that's some form disciplinary in itself.
I'm sorry but how have you decided carte blanche that stop search is ineffective? Without it you'd likely get more people being arrested as the power is designed to offer an alternative. For me it is an essential power however I do agree it needs to be used appropriately and the process transparent given the impact on communities misuse can have.
The idea isn't to stop search people who are suspect looking but to back up your suspicion with clear lawful grounds. These grounds are pretty specific and can be formed in a variety of ways (see, hear, smell, current intel, actions, what's known to you..). PACE is very specific on the above and also permits the use of force to detain and conduct a search where powers exist.
Before simply looking at facts and figures you must also look a little deeper. Where exactly are you 9x more likely to be stopped? What is the demographic of that area and what is the crime rate? It's all relevant to the discussion.
This was before body cams were mandatory, only the officers' words to rely upon.
17% arrest rate isn't good by any measure, plus every arrest made doesn't lead to a conviction.
The impact on communities & misuse of power is exactly what i'm discussing, because every failed stop & search is far more likely to result in the member of that community feeling resentment towards the police - then we wonder why there are so many people who dislike the police for 1 reason or another.
The report I linked has the breakdown by ethnicity & area btw, so even in areas where black people are the minority population e.g Devon, Dorsett, Norfolk etc, per 1,000 people black people still get searched considerably more than white & other ethnic people. The 9x statistic is a UK-wide average made in comparison to white people, with all areas considered.
There's not a single area in the UK where black people aren't more likely to be searched than any other racial ethnicity.
https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.../stop-and-search/latest#by-ethnicity-and-area
Don't these incidents start before they even truly begin with a mindset, a mindset historically ingrained in white Westerners that (for example) black people aren't innocently standing around but, instead, 'loitering' or 'scheming', potentially 'up to no good'; black people are rarely if ever justifiably angry but 'filled with senseless, unreasonable rage'; some black people aren't silent and submissive but 'loud, unruly' and guilty of 'disturbing the peace'?