Jadon Sancho| Staying at Dortmund for now

cyberman said:

Thats because we are watching full games of James and every move he makes. If we saw his youtube collection as a Dortmund player, in a team that was flying, we would be going mad over James. Especially since he seems to have added a final ball to his pace.
We had Dortmund fans coming on here trying to kill down the hype of Sanchos performances for a reason. Fans tend to get lost in something new but Sancho started at zero with United fans and caught the imagination while James started at minus 10 with talk of Brexit FC and moves on loan before he made his debut. Hes fighting more of an uphill battle but if Sancho played as well v City as James did in his Swansea days, Chelsea and Liverpool in his first few months in the public eye then his performance thread would be full of pay what it takes, scouting shit etc.

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If you look at the underlying stats Sancho is better than him in nearly every department and that's when Sancho is struggling. Sancho is a completely different level of talent but it's concerning that these grumblings about his attitude might threaten to undermine him.

Sancho is better than James and no amount of fanfiction on this forum will change that. If we have a chance at getting Sancho then it’s a no brainer.

amolbhatia50k said:

Who said anything about discarding him? We'd have to sell Rashford, Martial or James before signing another attacker?

I'm sorry but it's all well and good doing the basics well but eventually if you want to challenge the top sides you need players with those elite abilities. Isn't it surprising that the best footballers on the planet don't merely do basics well but have exceptional qualities?

What I'd do is keep our front three, and add an immensely gifted RW like Sancho or someone else and possibly a CF depending on Greenwoods readiness (but hopefully not with him developing well).

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The reason we are in this situation is because our players don't do basic stuff well enough. Simple passes are a thing of the past.( all our coaches expressed this same sentiment, keep it simple) We try to do Hollywood balls, flicks and tricks.Unless a winger doesn't dribble past 5 defenders he is not good enough. Becks didn't do fancy stuff , he kept things extremely simple he did his runs and put in crosses, so according to you Becks is not an elite enough [not putting words in your mouth, am just using your analogy to compare a player of the past].

we don't need all of our attacking players to be world class for the team to function, and therein lies the issue with the fandom today, they want every player to do everything. Take Leceister for example, how many 'elite' players do they have? how are they competing at the highest level.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love Sancho to be part of our team, it only makes us stronger. But just because we got James from a championship side doesn't make him less of a player.

Classical Mechanic said:

If you look at the underlying stats Sancho is better than him in nearly every department and that's when Sancho is struggling. Sancho is a completely different level of talent but it's concerning that these grumblings about his attitude might threaten to undermine him.

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This is turning into a James v Sancho thread. Ok let's play along, can we wait till we finish this season to compare stats?

Lash said:

There is a bit of a theme with him on his attitude, I wonder if he can turn that round at Dortmund or he'll just move.

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I think Sancho and Pogba could strike up a lovely partnership at United. Ole sign him up.

TsuWave said:

Sancho is better than James and no amount of fanfiction on this forum will change that. If we have a chance at getting Sancho then it’s a no brainer.

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Why does one player have to be compared with another? why can't they both coexist in a team?

Velvet Revolver said:

Why does one player have to be compared with another? why can't they both coexist in a team?

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To big one player up we must put another down.

It’s the red cafe way.

Velvet Revolver said:

This is turning into a James v Sancho thread. Ok let's play along, can we wait till we finish this season to compare stats?

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Sure you can but I'm not sure you have any grounds to embargo a comparison as we go along.

TsuWave said:

Sancho is better than James and no amount of fanfiction on this forum will change that. If we have a chance at getting Sancho then it’s a no brainer.

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We would be mental to not go for Sancho, plus if we signed him then it would mean our rivals don't get an excellent player, it's a win-win.

I would love Sancho but I would be stunned if he even entertained the thought of coming to us at the moment, I hope I'm wrong but for me he has Madrid or even Liverpool written all over it.

Would be my first choice but not far behind is Ziyech, half the price as well.

We do need a specialist RW as although James is doing very well, you can't only have 1 person who can play there in your whole squad, get a top RW in, Martial up front fighting with say Haaland (hopefully) for that spot, James can cover right and left, just gives us far more options

Martial
Haaland
Sancho/Ziyech
Greenwood
James
Rashford

All fighting for 3 starting spots, that will do me

Classical Mechanic said:

Sure you can but I'm not sure you have any grounds to embargo a comparison as we go along.

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ok, so you are comparing a full seaon of you watching Sancho in and out with 8 odd games of James? sure that is a very logical way of comparing players. And like i said why should we compare players? why cant we give them credit in their own way. If James becomes the player Sancho is touted to be isnt that a good thing?

If we could sign Sancho (I doubt he would like to come here), he can play as RW (his best position) and James (if he's good) as LW (his best position too). So why oppose them?

StrettyEnder07 said:

I would love Sancho but I would be stunned if he even entertained the thought of coming to us at the moment, I hope I'm wrong but for me he has Madrid or even Liverpool written all over it.

Would be my first choice but not far behind is Ziyech, half the price as well.

We do need a specialist RW as although James is doing very well, you can't only have 1 person who can play there in your whole squad, get a top RW in, Martial up front fighting with say Haaland (hopefully) for that spot, James can cover right and left, just gives us far more options

Martial
Haaland
Sancho/Ziyech
Greenwood
James
Rashford

All fighting for 3 starting spots, that will do me

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I can't see Liverpool going for him, their two wingers are some of the best in the world in their position in and they're in their primes. Madrid might be in for him but they don't have the same allure to English players that they do the rest of the world. Chelsea will be our biggest threat for him, he's a boyhood Chelsea fan and he's from London.

I don't think we'll go for Haland personally, Martial's really growing into the role and he's getting to the age where strikers really start to flourish. If we sign a striker it'll be someone low-key for rotation.

He'll be a Liverpool player, they didnt spend any money last summer to get him next year.

1) Sancho is 10 x better than James.
2) Sancho is 10 x less likely to join us than a more successful, competitive team.

I reckon he'll be at Liverpool next season, that's my weird hunch.

Velvet Revolver said:

ok, so you are comparing a full seaon of you watching Sancho in and out with 8 odd games of James? sure that is a very logical way of comparing players. And like i said why should we compare players? why cant we give them credit in their own way. If James becomes the player Sancho is touted to be isnt that a good thing?

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I wasn't I was looking at their stats so far this season. James has done well better than I expected but he's not setting the world on fire. I think we're really starved of anything to shout about these days.

Comparing players is natural on a football forum. If James becomes one of the best wide men in football it would be amazing for United of course.

Darlington Padgett said:

He'll be a Liverpool player, they didnt spend any money last summer to get him next year.

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They didn't spend money because they spent too much the season before...

JB7 said:

In a straight up choice most people are picking United over Chelsea though, so swings and roundabouts.

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True. But it doesn't your case to be poorly managed. I agree that there are many considerations out of which we do come out on top in many as well.

OohAahMartial said:

For all this talk of Ole being a rookie, Frank is barely an embryo in comparison. Ole has managed for around a decade, won a league, numerous trophies as our reserve manager, and broke records for consecutive wins in his first season with us. Frank has done nothing.

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Yeah. Frank has done nothing except do a better job than Ole has at United. I'd rather Frank be a world cup winning coach than out perform but that's what happening. He appears to be a better manager with true potential.

harms said:

Agree. He's already 19, it's like if Sanchez' transfer hadn't taught us anything.

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Agree. If he's lost the hunger at 19 there's no hope.

Personally think he'll go to Chelsea, he's a fan, they'll walk top 4 and they place a nice style of football. Plus they haven't spent recently because of the transfer ban and they have the Hazard money.

Darlington Padgett said:

He'll be a Liverpool player, they didnt spend any money last summer to get him next year.

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Weird logic. Also they don’t need him. Chelsea will go for him is my guess.

AltiUn said:

I can't see Liverpool going for him, their two wingers are some of the best in the world in their position in and they're in their primes. Madrid might be in for him but they don't have the same allure to English players that they do the rest of the world. Chelsea will be our biggest threat for him, he's a boyhood Chelsea fan and he's from London.

I don't think we'll go for Haland personally, Martial's really growing into the role and he's getting to the age where strikers really start to flourish. If we sign a striker it'll be someone low-key for rotation.

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Yeah was thinking if Madrid go for Salah in the summer, which there has been a lot of talk about, obviously if not then they won't but seems to be quite a lot of speculation about Salah to Madrid with Sancho to Liverpool.

Yeah Chelsea as well but then you wonder about Hudson-Odi, but I am sure they will be in for him.

Still think we need a top class CF if we are wanting to compete with the big boys, agree that Martial is big time looking the part but he is quite injury prone and not sure a dodgy back up like Llorente (Spurs always struggled to find someone to come in to play back up to Kane) will be enough, Dembele maybe but this Haaland looks an absolute beast and if he is attainable go for it, we need more options up top.

People seem to think we only need one top class player per position which I find a bit mental.

Velvet Revolver said:

The reason we are in this situation is because our players don't do basic stuff well enough. Simple passes are a thing of the past.( all our coaches expressed this same sentiment, keep it simple) We try to do Hollywood balls, flicks and tricks.Unless a winger doesn't dribble past 5 defenders he is not good enough. Becks didn't do fancy stuff , he kept things extremely simple he did his runs and put in crosses, so according to you Becks is not an elite enough [not putting words in your mouth, am just using your analogy to compare a player of the past].

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Not really. But would you compare Beckham to Messi? Would you laugh off Messi and his supposed dribbling skills in favour of the simpler Beckham, or is one clearly much better at football? We need to do the basics right. But we also need exceptional talents. If, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, our aim is to challenge for top honours, we need players with exceptional qualities. If that's not the aim, then sure. Basics will do.

And that's not why we've struggled. It's because we've been poorly managed/run. And there's a difference between a player like Memphis who wasn't good enough doing pointless flashy things and hazard doing effective and useful things.

Velvet Revolver said:

we don't need all of our attacking players to be world class for the team to function, and therein lies the issue with the fandom today, they want every player to do everything. Take Leceister for example, how many 'elite' players do they have? how are they competing at the highest level.
.

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Leicester are not competing at the highest level and shouldn't be the standard we aim to reach. They're a decent team that are now very well managed but have rarely finished in the top 4 and may do so one season. We should emulate them in how well we are manager/run but our sights should be set higher. As a club with our resources it would be criminal not to. Naturally as things stand I'd be delighted if we were as good as them (primarily because of their manager not the players).

I agree that you don't need absolute top players in every position but I do believe that Sancho (at least of 18/19) was the outrageously gifted wide player (especially RW) that we've sorely lacked for a long time. And to be honest while I really like James I'm not yet sure he's someone who starts for a team of lofty ambitions. And hence I'd like him to ideally be part of 5 strong options for a front 3 as opposed to a 'must play every single match' footballer.

Velvet Revolver said:

Don't get me wrong, I'd love Sancho to be part of our team, it only makes us stronger. But just because we got James from a championship side doesn't make him less of a player.

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No, being from the championship doesn't make him a less or a player. Being a less of a player makes him a less of a player.

As I've said before, I really like James. He's been a very good find. But I'm not sure how you guys have been watching him an seeing and elite talent - one you'd forgo other quality RWs for. There's nothing wrong with having multiple options in wide areas. Last season City had Sterling, Sane, Silva and Mahrez. That's how you build a strong squad.

pascell said:

Personally think he'll go to Chelsea, he's a fan, they'll walk top 4 and they place a nice style of football. Plus they haven't spent recently because of the transfer ban and they have the Hazard money.

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So who sits on the bench? Hudson Odoi?

Lets be honest, James is great but in a SAF side, he'd be a squad player, an impact option off the bench and starting domestic cup games.

If we were to continue to improve our style and somehow fluke the europa league I think we'd be in the race

SER19 said:

If we were to continue to improve our style and somehow fluke the europa league I think we'd be in the race

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I think we're a good cup side. Teams can set up not to lose to us in the league and its an issue but in cup games there has to be a winner. I think we can bag the EL this season. The thing is that we'll be playing better sides from other leagues, they're less likely to park the bus against us.

Sparky Rhiwabon said:

Lets be honest, James is great but in a SAF side, he'd be a squad player, an impact option off the bench and starting domestic cup games.

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I think that is the intention to be honest, but lack of options has forced him to be a regular

Classical Mechanic said:

I think we're a good cup side. Teams can set up not to lose to us in the league and its an issue but in cup games there has to be a winner. I think we can bag the EL this season. The thing is that we'll be playing better sides from other leagues, they're less likely to park the bus against us.

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Would be fantastic if we could. Would need a progressive improvement and momentum build until latter stages though as we look liable to lose any tough away game.

SER19 said:

Would be fantastic if we could. Would need a progressive improvement and momentum build until latter stages though as we look liable to lose any tough away game.

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Looking at teams likely to drop out of the CL and it's Inter that would be our kryptonite.

amolbhatia50k said:

Not really. But would you compare Beckham to Messi? Would you laugh off Messi and his supposed dribbling skills in favour of the simpler Beckham, or is one clearly much better at football? We need to do the basics right. But we also need exceptional talents. If, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, our aim is to challenge for top honours, we need players with exceptional qualities. If that's not the aim, then sure. Basics will do.

And that's not why we've struggled. It's because we've been poorly managed/run. And there's a difference between a player like Memphis who wasn't good enough doing pointless flashy things and hazard doing effective and useful things.

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Well technically you cant compare Messi to anyone because they are once in a life time talents. However, we did win leagues (multiple times) with Becks. so that is surely got something to do with his capabilities. And i am not saying we need to do just the bare minimum, I am saying we to do the basics well before we elevate ourselves.

I agree with you partially on the coaching thing, but i don't think Ole is giving out instructions to our players to do the expansive, extravagant stuff. Especially when we are setup to play counter the basics are what we need to focus on. Am not saying this is the best approach am just stating what i am observing.

amolbhatia50k said:

Leicester are not competing at the highest level and shouldn't be the standard we aim to reach. They're a decent team that are now very well managed but have rarely finished in the top 4 and may do so one season. We should emulate them in how well we are manager/run but our sights should be set higher. As a club with our resources it would be criminal not to. Naturally as things stand I'd be delighted if we were as good as them (primarily because of their manager not the players).

I agree that you don't need absolute top players in every position but I do believe that Sancho (at least of 18/19) was the outrageously gifted wide player (especially RW) that we've sorely lacked for a long time. And to be honest while I really like James I'm not yet sure he's someone who starts for a team of lofty ambitions. And hence I'd like him to ideally be part of 5 strong options for a front 3 as opposed to a 'must play every single match' footballer.

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Of course we shouldn't aim to be leceister, but there is no harm in taking inferences from a style of play. We dont always have to look at how barca or madrids or Ajax's of the world play. If leceister are playing well and the system works for them and if we can implement such a system to make us better then what's wrong in that? doesn't mean that we need to aspire to be anyone!

amolbhatia50k said:

No, being from the championship doesn't make him a less or a player. Being a less of a player makes him a less of a player.

As I've said before, I really like James. He's been a very good find. But I'm not sure how you guys have been watching him an seeing and elite talent - one you'd forgo other quality RWs for. There's nothing wrong with having multiple options in wide areas. Last season City had Sterling, Sane, Silva and Mahrez. That's how you build a strong squad

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I am not saying he is lighting the world alight and or if he is a elite player, I am also not saying that we should not buy Sancho, what i am merely saying is appreciate James because he is doing well instead of saying yeah he is ok but lets get Sancho, who for all we know might snub us.

Cassidy said:

So who sits on the bench? Hudson Odoi?

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Hudson-Odoi would play on the LW and rotate with Pulisic.

Edit: It's like asking who he'd bench at United, Rashford or James?

pascell said:

Hudson-Odoi would play on the LW and rotate with Pulisic.

Edit: It's like asking who he'd bench at United, Rashford or James?

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Chelsea are going to have a problem with Hudson Odoi soon if he doesn't become a regular first choice player. Its what made him stall on a new deal

Cassidy said:

Chelsea are going to have a problem with Hudson Odoi soon if he doesn't become a regular first choice player. Its what made him stall on a new deal

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It’s down to him to perform and cement the position now that the deal is signed.

James is LW and playing in Rw in lack of options doesnt make him a proper Rw even if he play very good there.

We need Rw and CF.
I think Cf will be in 30s, someone who will be on the bench in most of the time and rest Martial. So Mandzukic, Cavani, Dzeko, Muller is my favorites.

If Ole and the board want someone who will fight with Martial for starting spot then Werner, Dembele, Haaland are best options in my opinion.

Lw: Rashfrod/James
Cf: Martial/Dembele
Rw: Sancho/Greenwood

I would love to see this attack.

Renegade said:

It’s down to him to perform and cement the position now that the deal is signed.

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Agree. Its just something that could make a Sancho to Chelsea deal an issue if he does.

Macedonian Red said:

James is LW and playing in Rw in lack of options doesnt make him a proper Rw even if he play very good there.

We need Rw and CF.
I think Cf will be in 30s, someone who will be on the bench in most of the time and rest Martial. So Mandzukic, Cavani, Dzeko, Muller is my favorites.

If Ole and the board want someone who will fight with Martial for starting spot then Werner, Dembele, Haaland are best options in my opinion.

Lw: Rashfrod/James
Cf: Martial/Dembele
Rw: Sancho/Greenwood

I would love to see this attack.

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Greenwood also is not a RW

amolbhatia50k said:

Who said anything about discarding him? We'd have to sell Rashford, Martial or James before signing another attacker?

I'm sorry but it's all well and good doing the basics well but eventually if you want to challenge the top sides you need players with those elite abilities. Isn't it surprising that the best footballers on the planet don't merely do basics well but have exceptional qualities?

What I'd do is keep our front three, and add an immensely gifted RW like Sancho or someone else and possibly a CF depending on Greenwoods readiness (but hopefully not with him developing well).

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Beckham just did the basic well: hardworking, and crossing. He served us pretty good.

Isotope said:

Beckham just did the basic well: hardworking, and crossing. He served us pretty good.

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Beckham isn't in our team anymore.