Trent Alexander Arnold

F-A-C-T-S · Nov 12, 2019

thepolice123 said:
It these cross field passes to switch the play which really disrupts the defensive shape. They scored a similar goal against City last season. Left-footed cross field pass to Robertson.

Someone made an arguement that they are almost impossible to defend. Just as Sterling had many chances to go one on one with TAA in the last 15 of the match, Robertson was being consistently found by Trent with that switch of play and vice versa.

It's literally one pass and all of a sudden one of their fullbacks is in a dangerous position to whip in a cross. I guess one way to defend it is to cover the spaces out wide, but how many managers are going to go for an option that leaves open spaces in midfield for the likes of Firmino to exploit with their trickery and Salah and Mané through clever inside runs.

It's in my opinion the reason why they almost never lose, and haven't lost an important game since Barca away? Which they largely dominated. Only a full strength City can find a way to beat them, of which it would be a straight shoot out which could go either way. And if someone else knocks out City from the Champions League, then I fear a Liverpool Double.

Fussball13251 · Nov 12, 2019

Classical Mechanic said:
He struggled defensively but this pass was pretty special, it’s a really good goal all round really.

It was a left footed through ball by Trent. It was a world class goal. It reminded me of Liverpool at the Camp Nou, Liverpool had the better of the play but were beaten by moments of world classyness.

1, 2, 3.... goal

giorno · Nov 12, 2019

Dr Foo said:
Makes sense, and you gotta admire the work ethic of the midfield and the quality of their fullbacks. But if this is fully true, how does Liverpool keep picking up points against the lower sides too? I don't watch all their games, and have only seen them struggle against our low block

Because it's wrong. Liverpool don't particularly struggle to create against parked buses, no more than any other side in the world bar maybe City. The quality of their WBs+Forwards makes sure of that. The midfielders may be no great playmakers but they're smart and physical and know how to play through the cracks created by the other 5

hasanejaz88 said:
They have been struggling to win points against weaker teams,

They really have not. As @Klopper76 said

Raees said:
It’s because their play has increasingly been going through Mane and TAA who are both more equipped to break down a low block whereas Salah is easier to stop once his space is restricted.

Not really. Salah is actually a more associative player than Mane and Liverpool's play mostly goes through the triangles between him+firmino+trent or salah+trent+henderson/milner

Mane is mostly used as either a weak side threat or vertical threat to pin the defence back(or get behind them quickly)

Raees · Nov 12, 2019

giorno said:
Because it's wrong. Liverpool don't particularly struggle to create against parked buses, no more than any other side in the world bar maybe City. The quality of their WBs+Forwards makes sure of that. The midfielders may be no great playmakers but they're smart and physical and know how to play through the cracks created by the other 5

They really have not. As @Klopper76 said

Not really. Salah is actually a more associative player than Mane and Liverpool's play mostly goes through the triangles between him+firmino+trent or salah+trent+henderson/milner

Mane is mostly used as either a weak side threat or vertical threat to pin the defence back(or get behind them quickly)

Agree with Salah being the more associative player but my point was it is increasingly being shared now with Mane having more influence than previous seasons. Also agree Mane is a bigger threat against weaker sides hence my point on the low block.

Final point yes he is a vertical threat but Salah runs behind and movement on the counter is on another level hence why he’s the one they usually leave furthest forward when they are holding on to a lead.

hasanejaz88 · Nov 12, 2019

Klopper76 said:
If you take out games against Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, United & City we've only failed to win three games against the rest of the league since the beginning of last season. Those sides were Everton, Leicester & West Ham.

That suggests that we don't drop points against the weaker sides.

You shouldn't take out United because we have been playing a very defensive style against Liverpool over the last two seasons and all three times Liverpool struggled to score.

My feeling is that Liverpools goals come more from individual quality, either from a great cross or finish, than fantastic passing sequences; atleast when I compare them to Klopps Dortmund side. Being a huge fan of Klopp since he started at Dortmund, and not being as anti Liverpool as others here, I don't feel from an attacking point of view his Liverpool side are as good as Dortmund. They are solid, but not as great.

Defensively though, this Liverpool team is more solid and ofcourse a lot of that comes from having 3 solid midfielders in the center (while Klopp played with 2 in Gundogan and Bender or sometimes just Bender). So I guess one goes without the other.

giorno · Nov 12, 2019

Raees said:
Agree with Salah being the more associative player but my point was it is increasingly being shared now with Mane having more influence than previous seasons. Also agree Mane is a bigger threat against weaker sides hence my point on the low block.

Mane isn't more influential on their play than he used to be, he's just scoring more. And by weak side i meant weak side of the pitch, not weaker opponents. Liverpool overload the right wing, force the defence to overload that side too, and if they can't break through there, they then switch to Mane(and robertson) on the other side, with fewer defenders and thus more space. It's a standard pattern of their attacking play against deep blocks(it's a standard pattern of virtually everyone, in fairness)

Final point yes he is a vertical threat but Salah runs behind and movement on the counter is on another level hence why he’s the one they usually leave furthest forward when they are holding on to a lead.

Salah remains higher because he's significantly better at shielding the ball and he's a bigger goal threat and a lesser defensive player with an inferior engine to the energizer bunny that is Mane. Mane is significantly better at making runs behind the defence on long plays and is used as a direct vertical threat a lot more than Salah. Also Mane is the player they mlre often look to to carry the ball forward on counters. That has always been the case since coutinho was sold

hasanejaz88 said:
My feeling is that Liverpools goals come more from individual quality, either from a great cross or finish, than fantastic passing sequences; atleast when I compare them to Klopps Dortmund side. Being a huge fan of Klopp since he started at Dortmund, and not being as anti Liverpool as others here, I don't feel from an attacking point of view his Liverpool side are as good as Dortmund. They are solid, but not as great.

Defensively though, this Liverpool team is more solid and ofcourse a lot of that comes from having 3 solid midfielders in the center (while Klopp played with 2 in Gundogan and Bender or sometimes just Bender). So I guess one goes without the other.

This liverpool side is better than any iteration of Klopp's dortmund at everything and in every way

Danny Roberts · Nov 12, 2019

Thought his defending has looked very dodgy the last few weeks.

Adam-Utd · Nov 12, 2019

F-A-C-T-S said:
Someone made an arguement that they are almost impossible to defend. Just as Sterling had many chances to go one on one with TAA in the last 15 of the match, Robertson was being consistently found by Trent with that switch of play and vice versa.

It's literally one pass and all of a sudden one of their fullbacks is in a dangerous position to whip in a cross. I guess one way to defend it is to cover the spaces out wide, but how many managers are going to go for an option that leaves open spaces in midfield for the likes of Firmino to exploit with their trickery and Salah and Mané through clever inside runs.

It's in my opinion the reason why they almost never lose, and haven't lost an important game since Barca away? Which they largely dominated. Only a full strength City can find a way to beat them, of which it would be a straight shoot out which could go either way. And if someone else knocks out City from the Champions League, then I fear a Liverpool Double.

Which is why United did the best job on them of ANYBODY in the last 18 months or so. You have to give Ole and the staff major credit for that.

Our wingbacks absolutely shut their fullbacks down, and they looked poor until they switched formation.

hasanejaz88 · Nov 12, 2019

giorno said:
Mane isn't more influential on their play than he used to be, he's just scoring more. And by weak side i meant weak side of the pitch, not weaker opponents. Liverpool overload the right wing, force the defence to overload that side too, and if they can't break through there, they then switch to Mane(and robertson) on the other side, with fewer defenders and thus more space. It's a standard pattern of their attacking play against deep blocks(it's a standard pattern of virtually everyone, in fairness)

Salah remains higher because he's significantly better at shielding the ball and he's a bigger goal threat and a lesser defensive player with an inferior engine to the energizer bunny that is Mane. Mane is significantly better at making runs behind the defence on long plays and is used as a direct vertical threat a lot more than Salah. Also Mane is the player they mlre often look to to carry the ball forward on counters. That has always been the case since coutinho was sold

This liverpool side is better than any iteration of Klopp's dortmund at everything and in every way

Yea no. I can accept that they are better defensively but no way they are better in attack than the Dortmund team in 12-13. The beat Madrid twice and City during that run and only the Bayern team, who are arguably the second best season team of this decade, could stop them.

DVG7 · Nov 12, 2019

He’s the ideal Right midfielder in a 4-4-2. If I were Southgate, I would be playing Wan Bissaka behind him. Together, they bring everything you could want from your right side in that formation.

giorno · Nov 12, 2019

hasanejaz88 said:
Yea no. I can accept that they are better defensively but no way they are better in attack than the Dortmund team in 12-13. The beat Madrid twice and City during that run and only the Bayern team, who are arguably the second best season team of this decade, could stop them.

They scored the same number of goals in CL and pretty much the same number of goals in the league(goals per game)

Liverpool also beat better quality of opposition. You talk about real madrid and city as if the 12/13 version of those sides were particularly impressive. We nearly pissed away a 3-0 lead against fecking galatasaray in the QF ffs. City were just appalling. Never in the run for anything. Even managed to lose the FA cup final to fecking Wigan of all things...

thepolice123 · Nov 12, 2019

F-A-C-T-S said:
Someone made an arguement that they are almost impossible to defend. Just as Sterling had many chances to go one on one with TAA in the last 15 of the match, Robertson was being consistently found by Trent with that switch of play and vice versa.

It's literally one pass and all of a sudden one of their fullbacks is in a dangerous position to whip in a cross. I guess one way to defend it is to cover the spaces out wide, but how many managers are going to go for an option that leaves open spaces in midfield for the likes of Firmino to exploit with their trickery and Salah and Mané through clever inside runs.

It's in my opinion the reason why they almost never lose, and haven't lost an important game since Barca away? Which they largely dominated. Only a full strength City can find a way to beat them, of which it would be a straight shoot out which could go either way. And if someone else knocks out City from the Champions League, then I fear a Liverpool Double.

It’s not impossible to defend, its just a different way of ultilising that late run from a fullback. The great thing about this is that he really took the idea of a fullback playmaker to different level. I figure we will see less of this strategy once teams start to put man-marking on Robertson who is the real threat.

I used to think Alves was ridiculously hard to play against as well until Hiddink devised a way to expose him. Malouda to man-mark him and have right-footed leftback defend Messi.

B20 · Nov 12, 2019

thepolice123 said:
It’s not impossible to defend, its just a different way of ultilising that late run from a fullback. The great thing about this is that he really took the idea of a fullback playmaker to different level. I figure we will see less of this strategy once teams start to put man-marking on Robertson who is the real threat.

I'd love it if teams start man marking our left back.

Klopper76 · Nov 12, 2019

hasanejaz88 said:
You shouldn't take out United because we have been playing a very defensive style against Liverpool over the last two seasons and all three times Liverpool struggled to score.

My feeling is that Liverpools goals come more from individual quality, either from a great cross or finish, than fantastic passing sequences; at least when I compare them to Klopps Dortmund side. Being a huge fan of Klopp since he started at Dortmund, and not being as anti Liverpool as others here, I don't feel from an attacking point of view his Liverpool side are as good as Dortmund. They are solid, but not as great.

Defensively though, this Liverpool team is more solid and of course a lot of that comes from having 3 solid midfielders in the center (while Klopp played with 2 in Gundogan and Bender or sometimes just Bender). So I guess one goes without the other.

Yeah but United are still considered a 'big six' game in that mini league. We play against more defensive set ups than what United have done on a regular basis and normally have no issues breaking them down.

I think some of our goals can come from individual quality but a lot of those originate from the full backs, which is part of the way Klopp sets us up to play. We're not as slick as City are when it comes to passing but we're capable of building up sustained pressure with a sequence of passing and probing leading to a goal. Two of our goals against Salzburg were good passing moves, as was the second goal against City with a switch of play and then a cross into the box.

I don't think we're any worse than Klopp's Dortmund personally. They were never as good defensively as we have been and I don't think there's much between them in terms of goal scoring. Maybe they were a bit stronger in terms of passing.

giorno · Nov 12, 2019

thepolice123 said:
It’s not impossible to defend, its just a different way of ultilising that late run from a fullback. The great thing about this is that he really took the idea of a fullback playmaker to different level. I figure we will see less of this strategy once teams start to put man-marking on Robertson who is the real threat.

I used to think Alves was ridiculously hard to play against as well until Hiddink devised a way to expose him. Malouda to man-mark him and have right-footed leftback defend Messi.

That was a one-off and it involved Hiddink completely giving up trying to win the game

Nobody figured out how to stop Marcelo and Carvajal as Real Madrid won 3 CL in a row

TheMagicFoolBus · Nov 12, 2019

What stands out to me about these long switches between FBs is that it totally frees up the attacking three from being involved in the buildup. All three can turn and run directly at the defense, which causes panic and in turn makes the cross-field passes that much easier to complete - Liverpool's second goal vs City is a perfect example of this.

thepolice123 · Nov 13, 2019

giorno said:
That was a one-off and it involved Hiddink completely giving up trying to win the game

Nobody figured out how to stop Marcelo and Carvajal as Real Madrid won 3 CL in a row

I'm talking about the 2009 game. Chelsea really had them on the ropes in the second leg. Only one shot on target until the Iniesta goal.

We used Park on him in CL final. Mourinho did it the next season by putting Pandev on him.

Personally, I think Marcelo/Carvajal are overrall better players. But it can be argued that they aren't as influential as TAA/Robertson for their respective teams.

giorno · Nov 13, 2019

thepolice123 said:
I'm talking about the 2009 game. Chelsea really had them on the ropes in the second leg. Only one shot on target until the Iniesta goal.

Was thinking of the first leg

Personally, I think Marcelo/Carvajal are overrall better players. But it can be argued that they aren't as influential as TAA/Robertson for their respective teams.

Marcelo and Carvajal were every bit as influential during the 16/17 amd 17/18 seasons for us. Our entire play run through them.

Also TAA is better than Carvajal

Classical Mechanic · Nov 13, 2019

giorno said:
Was thinking of the first leg

Marcelo and Carvajal were every bit as influential during the 16/17 amd 17/18 seasons for us. Our entire play run through them.

Also TAA is better than Carvajal

TAA is only 21 too so his journey is just beginning.

giorno · Nov 13, 2019

Classical Mechanic said:
TAA is only 21 too so his journey is just beginning.

Yep. Special player

VorZakone · Nov 13, 2019

Is the closest replication of Dani Alves at Sevilla?

BillyJoel · Nov 13, 2019

VorZakone said:
Is the closest replication of Dani Alves at Sevilla?

Not really. Alves was an attacking fullback in the mould of being an excellent dribbler, runner, finding space and all: TAA's isn't that fast or that good a dribbler (which is not to say he's bad at it, just not prime Alves level): his main thing are his passes and crosses.

No comment · Nov 14, 2019

Did anyone else notice him pushing Sterling in his back into the billboards when Sterling was clearly off the pitch about 10 minutes into the game,
surprised more wasn't made of it at the time, Sterling was furious.

It was exactly the same as Holgate did to Firminho when the Liverpool fans called for him to be banned.

Dumbstar · Nov 14, 2019

No comment said:
Did anyone else notice him pushing Sterling in his back into the billboards when Sterling was clearly off the pitch about 10 minutes into the game,
surprised more wasn't made of it at the time, Sterling was furious.

It was exactly the same as Holgate did to Firminho when the Liverpool fans called for him to be banned.

It did feel like we were targeting him. Rile him up as much as possible. Obviously it worked. Very well.

F-A-C-T-S · Nov 14, 2019

Adam-Utd said:
Which is why United did the best job on them of ANYBODY in the last 18 months or so. You have to give Ole and the staff major credit for that.

Our wingbacks absolutely shut their fullbacks down, and they looked poor until they switched formation.

Can't dispute that. It's as if they have a mental block playing at Old Trafford. Can't remember the last time they had a good time here. Maybe 2013/14.

TheMagicFoolBus · Nov 14, 2019

F-A-C-T-S said:
Can't dispute that. It's as if they have a mental block playing at Old Trafford. Can't remember the last time they had a good time here. Maybe 2013/14.

Salah being out was also a huge factor, to be fair. United's approach to push up the wing backs meant the three CBs were playing 1v1 and while Origi is a decent player, this isn't to his strengths and you'd have to think Salah would relish being isolated vs. Rojo. Regardless, Ole deserves huge credit for his gameplan and for being brave enough to employ it. It goes to show the extent to which Liverpool rely on their fullbacks to be their true playmakers rather than anyone in midfield.

Klopper76 · Nov 14, 2019

F-A-C-T-S said:
Can't dispute that. It's as if they have a mental block playing at Old Trafford. Can't remember the last time they had a good time here. Maybe 2013/14.

That was the last time we had a good performance at Old Trafford. Before that it was 08/09, and prior to that you'd have to go back to the Danny Murphy era where we won three away to United in the space of four years. Admittedly the one we didn't win was a 4-0 defeat but yeah, since then our record at Old Trafford has been horrific.

Got2be · Nov 14, 2019

Mane tracks back and Salah does not. Imagine Mane was playing on the right and Salah on the left. Robertson has a lot more protection from Mane than Trent has. You could see that Trent was alone 1 v 1 vs Sterling all the time.

I dont think people would have talked about Trents defending if Mane was playing on hi side.

BobbyManc · Nov 14, 2019

Dumbstar said:
It did feel like we were targeting him. Rile him up as much as possible. Obviously it worked. Very well.

Did it? He was our best player. It was the rest who were shit. Sterling comfortably got the better of TAA.

Mettaur · Nov 16, 2019

BobbyManc said:
Did it? He was our best player. It was the rest who were shit. Sterling comfortably got the better of TAA.

This was said very often but did Sterling really have that good of a game? Yes, he got the better of TAA but he made 0 key passes and had 4 shots with 0 on target. If anything, he was wasteful despite being Man City's go-to outlet. I watched the game and saw him got the ball to dangerous positions but he had nothing to show for it.

BobbyManc · Nov 16, 2019

Mettaur said:
This was said very often but did Sterling really have that good of a game? Yes, he got the better of TAA but he made 0 key passes and had 4 shots with 0 on target. If anything, he was wasteful despite being Man City's go-to outlet. I watched the game and saw him got the ball to dangerous positions but he had nothing to show for it.

No one claimed Sterling was exceptional. He was our best player, but the rest were average to poor so it didn't take much. That said, TAA couldn't deal with him one v one. So the idea that Liverpool somehow succeeded in winding him up makes no sense. If he's getting the ball to dangerous positions and getting the better of TAA as you admit then Liverpool aren't really doing a good job of dealing with him are they?

B20 · Nov 16, 2019

Sterling was clearly wound up. He stamped on VVD and then went at gomez in the canteen a day later ffs.

VP89 · Nov 16, 2019

Any time I think of a canteen bust up I think of LVG coming at Rafael :lol:

VeevaVee · Nov 16, 2019

No comment said:
Did anyone else notice him pushing Sterling in his back into the billboards when Sterling was clearly off the pitch about 10 minutes into the game,
surprised more wasn't made of it at the time, Sterling was furious.

It was exactly the same as Holgate did to Firminho when the Liverpool fans called for him to be banned.

Robertson did it to Walker on the other side as well. Then had a big shit eating grin. They'd either been told to do it or are a team full of shithouses.

ForeverRoma93 · Nov 16, 2019

I think people are a bit harsh on him regarding defensive duties. Sure it's an area he can improve on but how many goals conceded this season were a direct result of him?

PickledRed · Nov 16, 2019

VeevaVee said:
Robertson did it to Walker on the other side as well. Then had a big shit eating grin. They'd either been told to do it or are a team full of shithouses.

Shithouses hopefully. The best teams are usually filled with such characters. Opposition fans tend to get triggered, which is all part of the game I guess.

Classical Mechanic · Dec 5, 2019

Crazy pass on the Shaqiri goal last night.

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C_Senior · Dec 5, 2019

Ridiculous pass that was. Amazing how just one correct cross field pass could take out lots of opposition players and make their defence unbalance in a twinkling of an eye.

VorZakone · Dec 5, 2019

Mané's control was great too.

Classical Mechanic · Dec 5, 2019

VorZakone said:
Mané's control was great too.

So was his pass to Shaqiri, great goal all round really.

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