MUFC new transfer recruitment procedure

JMack1234

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For the fist in a while, I feel all our signings have worked this season.
 

Roughseas

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AWB wont work unless his offensive output increases dramatically. It’s starting to worry me.
 

MikeKing

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It is isn't?

Usually our new signings might be shit or needs time to succeed.

It's good to see instant hits of signings.
Obviously every signing wont work out but its crucial that we have a good period now in the transfer-market. It's why I'm a bit reluctant in wanting the manager out. Absolutely vital for us to get the signings right, more so than get the manager right really, and I feel like even if Ole isn't the right man for the long term that if he can get the signings right I don't care much about his lack of managerial experience. He has some qualities and knows what we should look like and a certain level of management too so that might be enough for us through this rebuilding process. He can still build a great squad without getting the results right away.

Its about not repeating our mistakes.
 

meamth

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Obviously every signing wont work out but its crucial that we have a good period now in the transfer-market. It's why I'm a bit reluctant in wanting the manager out. Absolutely vital for us to get the signings right, more so than get the manager right really, and I feel like even if Ole isn't the right man for the long term that if he can get the signings right I don't care much about his lack of managerial experience. He has some qualities and knows what we should look like and a certain level of management too so that might be enough for us through this rebuilding process. He can still build a great squad without getting the results right away.

Its about not repeating our mistakes.
People are quick to down play Ole's ability to keep this squad happy. I mean, he did make this squad happy and generally, since Ole took over, the squad is more likable than ever before. Gone are the days of toxic looking squad with the deadwood.

Signings players are as important as keeping the squad happy. Credit to Ole to his management.
 

cyril C

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Jim Lawlor, who was Ferguson’s chief scout

Sound trouble to me. If you say Chief scout of City, Spurs, or even Arsenal would be a good sign.

So, before signing Wan-Bissaka, United had data on 804 right-backs around the world.

Come on, do you really need 800+ RB to compare with WB? At most a dozen in current League which you can rule out half due to age/ability straightaway, add 2 dozen more from European leagues as benchmark.....
 

Crashoutcassius

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Obviously every signing wont work out but its crucial that we have a good period now in the transfer-market. It's why I'm a bit reluctant in wanting the manager out. Absolutely vital for us to get the signings right, more so than get the manager right really, and I feel like even if Ole isn't the right man for the long term that if he can get the signings right I don't care much about his lack of managerial experience. He has some qualities and knows what we should look like and a certain level of management too so that might be enough for us through this rebuilding process. He can still build a great squad without getting the results right away.

Its about not repeating our mistakes.
This is kinda how I feel...

Saf talks all the time about how over years he farmed coaching out to his coaches e.g. McLaren, quiroz, phelan. Tells you that if ole wants an improvement in football that he can take this route... indeed our football today is reminiscent of fergie final years when phelan was also assistant...

Ole can then do all the things saf did and really all the things a 'dof' does.
 

devilish

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I think we'll go through 10,000 players only to come out with Maddison, Jadon, Eriksen, Can, Mandzukic and Longstaff as the only players who can strengthen this squad
 

Adam-Utd

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AWB wont work unless his offensive output increases dramatically. It’s starting to worry me.
You're being silly. AWB should have had an assist in the last match but Rashford messed it up.

He's put in some good crosses, that's all that matters. He carries the ball well and gives us an option working with James.

It's not like he's looking like last season Valencia is it?
 

Tom Cato

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Νο that was Giggs.
Giggs recommended the player. The club already knew the player existed.

The recommendation from Giggs made the club take a closer look at the player in question, but that was as far as his recommendation went, everything else was supported by algorithms.
 

VP89

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They should just hire the caf as a collective consultant :wenger:
 

Tom Cato

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Jim Lawlor, who was Ferguson’s chief scout

Sound trouble to me. If you say Chief scout of City, Spurs, or even Arsenal would be a good sign.

So, before signing Wan-Bissaka, United had data on 804 right-backs around the world.

Come on, do you really need 800+ RB to compare with WB? At most a dozen in current League which you can rule out half due to age/ability straightaway, add 2 dozen more from European leagues as benchmark.....
I made a long post yesterday that gets largely ignored because its many words, but there's good reasons why the club looks at everyone when they're narrowing down players. The 804 is the players in this region they had advanced datasets on. There are more than 804 professional rightbacks in the world.
 

devilish

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Analyse 73,000 players world wide, then decide that only 130m on a right back and centre back will do.
I think the answer to that lies in the manager having a final say on everything. Thus the situation is probably like this. 880 players are analysed and we come out with 30 who are MUQ. The scouts then narrow it to 6 or 7. Those names are forwarded to Ole and he's like........whose the feck is Achraf Hakimi, Eder Militao and Nikola Milenkovic? The only guy I know from this list is AWB so we go for him.

Ole himself had stated that we're linking to players he never even heard about. Which means that unless the manager knows about the players we're signing then we're not signing them.

Ah and I am not blaming Ole on this. His plate is already full enough not to have to go around and scout players. Thus why we need a top quality DOF who does that job. Managers should focus on tactics, squad morale etc. They should still have a say on transfers but not a final say. We can't pin the responsibility on transfers over the manager. Its not his job to find new players.
 
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Sunny Jim

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Very interesting article in Mail On Sunday about clubs new refined recruitment process. Excerpt below:

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There is a power of veto on either side to add checks and balance to the system and avoid the mistakes of the past. So, the recruitment department has the power to veto the manager if he wants to buy a player, as they did with Mourinho. They can only do so if they can prove that their analysis meant the player didn’t make their top-three list. And the manager himself can veto a candidate put forward by the recruitment department.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...rd-looking-build-United-six-dismal-years.html
I call BS. Maguire transfer is a perfect example.
 

Sandikan

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Hey friend. That is a lie. And you know it. We targeted several players last transfer window that we were unable to get done for various reasons. There is no second best option.
I hope you're right, and there's a lot of genius to our plans :)
 

Deglobalise Football

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804 Right backs all over the world, and we just happened to sign the English one who everyone knows and costs tons of money.

Yeah, scouting.
"But....we're not good enough for us to take a punt on an unknown! We need established players!"

People all the time on here. Make up your damn minds.
 

diarm

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You have data on hundreds of players so you can identify the most talented young players before they break through.

When an exciting young player hits the scene at another club, the caf is the first place you read 'what the hell are the United scouts doing and why didn't we find him first?"

Then when we read that United had data on 800 right backs, the caf moans that it's too many and you only need data on a couple of dozen.

Some of you need something to bitch about like the rest of us need oxygen.
 

ManchesterYoda

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This Wyscout isn't something unique to United. 89 clubs from the top 5 leagues use it. Wonder who the backwards 9 are?
 

pacifictheme

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For club with small ressources to send scouts all over the world, I can see it but I hope that's not the case for bigger clubs
I know prem clubs use it. They have the biggest scouting network in the world apparently.

Its worth mentioning theit data is not the same ad the in game stuff. They alter and randomise it in game to a degree for replayability. The raw data is very good though.
 

JPRouve

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I know prem clubs use it. They have the biggest scouting network in the world apparently.

Its worth mentioning theit data is not the same ad the in game stuff. They alter and randomise it in game to a degree for replayability. The raw data is very good though.
They don't have a scouting network per se, they use scouting networks that already exist. You have companies doing that job who then sell their data to clubs, leagues and broadcasters.
 

Aouer-United

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It won't let me quote your post @The Firestarter

Regarding your post, I believe we were interested in him and wanted him but not happy with Leicester City's asking price so we thought he couldn't make any huge difference to us. We kind of cooled our interests in him.
 

AR87

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Including Mourinho, to whom the genius system said No.
Mourinho only suggested Maguire after the Toby and Boateng interest went nowhere. He was flailing around like a drunken sailor in the market that summer. It seems completely feasible they didn't buy Maguire then because the manager himself was unstable, and there was a good chance they'd sack him in a few months.

I made a long post yesterday that gets largely ignored because its many words, but there's good reasons why the club looks at everyone when they're narrowing down players. The 804 is the players in this region they had advanced datasets on. There are more than 804 professional rightbacks in the world.
Right, and just because they landed on AWB, who was obvious, doesn't mean the whole thing is a farce cover story. AWB was just that good and hit all the criteria for what Solskjaer is looking for. On top of that he excelled defensively in the PL so there wasn't any concern or doubt about how he'd adjust to the league.

Dan James is an example of the new system identifying a talent at lower levels that seems to have been undervalued.
 

Bestietom

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So with 3 players drawn up for each position, we should be able to manage to get one of them here.
Well if we can manage to get 2/3 players for the most important positions in January, we could have a very good second half to the season. An attacking midfielder and a forward would be nice to start with. Let the scouts show what they can do.
 

el diablorojo

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Mourinho only suggested Maguire after the Toby and Boateng interest went nowhere. He was flailing around like a drunken sailor in the market that summer. It seems completely feasible they didn't buy Maguire then because the manager himself was unstable, and there was a good chance they'd sack him in a few months.



Right, and just because they landed on AWB, who was obvious, doesn't mean the whole thing is a farce cover story. AWB was just that good and hit all the criteria for what Solskjaer is looking for. On top of that he excelled defensively in the PL so there wasn't any concern or doubt about how he'd adjust to the league.

Dan James is an example of the new system identifying a talent at lower levels that seems to have been undervalued.
This is the whole way analytics should be used in the recruitment process, identifying talent that would not be picked up on via normal scouting methods. Not only focused on individual players but also looking at leagues worlwide and being able to place them in terms of how they stack up in the global picture. You can identify exceptional talent in leagues that may be very unfashionable. The big caveat you need to accept with use of statics within the recruitment model is that, at the very top level, the gains are going to be marginal, it's much easier to achieve seemingly amazing results lower down the league structure. With players like Maguire and AWB their talent had already been proven, although I am sure you can employ stats to work out things like - do the stats indicate if their form sustainlable, do their stats indicate they will work well in the system the club wants to play etc.
 

Lentwood

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I don't know why people find it so hard to believe that all that Data may have led us to believe Maguire and AWB were still the best signings

People get obsessed with the 'International' feel of exotic-sounding signings from the Continent/South America but they forget that;

a) the PL is the best standard of football in terms of competitiveness across the whole division
b) there is a 'proven in the PL' factor to add if the Data makes it close on ability
c) there is a 'settled in England' factor to add if the Data makes it close on ability
 

AltiUn

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I don't know why people find it so hard to believe that all that Data may have led us to believe Maguire and AWB were still the best signings

People get obsessed with the 'International' feel of exotic-sounding signings from the Continent/South America but they forget that;

a) the PL is the best standard of football in terms of competitiveness across the whole division
b) there is a 'proven in the PL' factor to add if the Data makes it close on ability
c) there is a 'settled in England' factor to add if the Data makes it close on ability
Agreed, the issue they seem to have with AWB in particular confuses me a bit because he’s been class so far. So what if there were 800 odd other right backs and AWB topped the list, based on his performances is it really hard to see why he might have topped the list? I could understand their grievances if he was rubbish but he isn’t and has so far proven he was a great pick up.
 

AneRu

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I think the answer to that lies in the manager having a final say on everything. Thus the situation is probably like this. 880 players are analysed and we come out with 30 who are MUQ. The scouts then narrow it to 6 or 7. Those names are forwarded to Ole and he's like........whose the feck is Achraf Hakimi, Eder Militao and Nikola Milenkovic? The only guy I know from this list is AWB so we go for him.

Ole himself had stated that we're linking to players he never even heard about. Which means that unless the manager knows about the players we're signing then we're not signing them.

Ah and I am not blaming Ole on this. His plate is already full enough not to have to go around and scout players. Thus why we need a top quality DOF who does that job. Managers should focus on tactics, squad morale etc. They should still have a say on transfers but not a final say. We can't pin the responsibility on transfers over the manager. Its not his job to find new players.
Agree with this, its logistically impossible for Ole to run the rule on all players recommended to him and the likelihood of bias towards those he already knows is strong. I'd assume that transfer decisions areade during the busiest times of the season where the manager's focus is on what he can achieve with the first team: be it turning results around or maintaining them.

We really need someone with authority working fulltime on driving our recruitment efforts and general transfer strategy.
 

DSG

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I actually find this very encouraging.

Previously, we were dependent on SAF to make all transfer decisions. When you base your entire transfer strategy on one single genius, and he retires, you are fecked.

In modern football, it’s about the structure of the organization. 20 years ago, these tools didn’t exist. Now, the research and quantitative data provide the heavy lifting, creating shortlists, then a final qualitative analysis (video) with the manager.

My question is if all of the Caf members who are taking the piss out of this new structure are the same ones screaming for a Director of Football. What do you think a DoF does??? It’s managing the scouts and research and analysis teams....
 

mattunited1978

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I wouldnt swap AWB for any right back remotely getable, so im in agreement with the systems data.
 

EireRed_GS

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Maybe if they were'nt spending all their time filtering through 800+ full backs just to end up buying the one even my dog knew we would go for, we might have gotten on with sorting CM & RW :rolleyes:

..nonsense if u ask me, woodward & judge been flat out on Football manager then just pick the lad they scored with in FIFA the night before.

Sounds like the most over complicated rubbish to make woodward and judge come out of it a bit cleaner. At the end of the day, when a target is chosen it still has to go through them, and im sure it will have to be shown how they could be of commercial success aswell as a decent player
 

Ekeke

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Jim Lawlor, who was Ferguson’s chief scout

Sound trouble to me. If you say Chief scout of City, Spurs, or even Arsenal would be a good sign.

So, before signing Wan-Bissaka, United had data on 804 right-backs around the world.

Come on, do you really need 800+ RB to compare with WB? At most a dozen in current League which you can rule out half due to age/ability straightaway, add 2 dozen more from European leagues as benchmark.....
Yeah for me this is an example of excessive bloat in our system. You just had to look at the stats from last season to see he'd be one of the best right backs we could sign. I can come to the same conclusion from a few minutes that they come to after looking at 804 reports.

Now, perhaps they have it all set up on a database just like these stats websites somewhere. And it only took Ole and the senior scouts 10 mins to look through just like it does anyone else. That would make a lot more sense of it
 

devilish

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Agree with this, its logistically impossible for Ole to run the rule on all players recommended to him and the likelihood of bias towards those he already knows is strong. I'd assume that transfer decisions areade during the busiest times of the season where the manager's focus is on what he can achieve with the first team: be it turning results around or maintaining them.

We really need someone with authority working fulltime on driving our recruitment efforts and general transfer strategy.
I can't really understand why we're resisting the DOF/Sporting director role. Its pretty much present at every big club these days. Juventus, Barcelona, Bayern, Ajax, Liverpool and City have it so why not us? Managers have neither the time nor the skills to scout players. We're not talking about Sir Alex's era were the manager was brought up to do everything including driving the team's bus (ex Brian Clough). Modern managers are used to have DOF/Sporting directors as much as managers in Sir Alex's era were used having on site doctors and tea ladies.

So what if both Woodward and Ole are saying the truth here? The club did analysed hundreds of players, they did scouted a number of them but once it fell over the manager's lap (who has the final say at United), he went for the obvious choice, ie the guy he watched playing. That makes sense on all levels. The manager is expected to commit an investment worth tens of millions out of a list of players. Its obvious that he will go for the players he knows about. Its time we take the transfer thing away from the manager's hands. Sure the manager should be consulted and he should be kept in the loop. However the responsibility of scouting players and signing the right guys should be delegated to someone who does this as a full time job.
 

Bilbo

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I can't really understand why we're resisting the DOF/Sporting director role. Its pretty much present at every big club these days. Juventus, Barcelona, Bayern, Ajax, Liverpool and City have it so why not us? Managers have neither the time nor the skills to scout players. We're not talking about Sir Alex's era were the manager was brought up to do everything including driving the team's bus (ex Brian Clough). Modern managers are used to have DOF/Sporting directors as much as managers in Sir Alex's era were used having on site doctors and tea ladies.

So what if both Woodward and Ole are saying the truth here? The club did analysed hundreds of players, they did scouted a number of them but once it fell over the manager's lap (who has the final say at United), he went for the obvious choice, ie the guy he watched playing. That makes sense on all levels. The manager is expected to commit an investment worth tens of millions out of a list of players. Its obvious that he will go for the players he knows about. Its time we take the transfer thing away from the manager's hands. Sure the manager should be consulted and he should be kept in the loop. However the responsibility of scouting players and signing the right guys should be delegated to someone who does this as a full time job.
If I understand you correctly, then I'm not sure I agree with you. Managers are held accountable for quality of football & style of play. The scouting team put players forward, but the manager should almost always have the final word IMO.
 

devilish

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If I understand you correctly, then I'm not sure I agree with you. Managers are held accountable for quality of football & style of play. The scouting team put players forward, but the manager should almost always have the final word IMO.
How can a manager be saddled with the responsibility of buying players whom he haven't seen playing let alone scouted in detail? Under such circumstances its only fair that the manager will only give the go ahead to players he knows about which, in Ole's case, we'll mostly be EPL proven players.

The manager should limit himself on tactics, his vision and morale. If he feels that the team needs strengthening in lets say, the RB position, then he should handle the DOF the exact specifications of what type of player he wants. Does he need a defensive RB or an attacking RB? Should he be better in going forward and dribble past players or should he be the old fashioned type of RB who hugs the line and cross the ball efficiently? What about height? Is it important to be physically imposing (ex AWB whose 6ft tall) or isn't that characteristic not important? Once these characteristics had been agreed then it would be up to the DOF to find the player the manager needs based on that criteria. He's the guy who spend his life scouting and checking whose available or whose not. Of course the manager is constantly kept updated if he wants to (ex through videos etc). However don't expect the manager to go through a list and decide which one to buy and whom we're discarding. In that case then the manager will always go for the player he knows about ie in Ole's case the EPL proven player, while LVG would go for Dutch players (Blind, Depay etc), players he had previously worked with (Bastian, Valdes etc) with the occasional big name everyone knew about (Falcao, ADM)

Its also unfair on the manager to be judged on an areas he doesn't got the time, the contacts (whose available, who wants to join us etc) or the scouting skills to complete successfully (ie transfers success rate). He should be judged on his tactical awareness and team morale. Breaking the job into small tasks which is done by specialised people help the club to be more efficient and effective while concurrently impose accountability. If lets say the tactics are top notch but the players bought doesn't fit the manager's vision of play (ex Ole asks for a striker and the DOF brings him Henk Veerman) then its evident that the DOF is messing up. However if the team is tactically naive and the manager has lost the dressing room then its the manager's fault.
 

AneRu

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If I understand you correctly, then I'm not sure I agree with you. Managers are held accountable for quality of football & style of play. The scouting team put players forward, but the manager should almost always have the final word IMO.
And when things go south it is the club that's left holding the tab so it's only right that there is someone to protect the club's interest. For example, do United ignore Fabinho and sign Matic if we have a proper structure? The fact that we now need to spend another fortune on a type of player when we spent £40m to bring in Matic is exactly why we need someone to watch over this critical operation and protect the club.

How can a manager be saddled with the responsibility of buying players whom he haven't seen playing let alone scouted in detail? Under such circumstances its only fair that the manager will only give the go ahead to players he knows about which, in Ole's case, we'll mostly be EPL proven players.

The manager should limit himself on tactics, his vision and morale. If he feels that the team needs strengthening in lets say, the RB position, then he should handle the DOF the exact specifications of what type of player he wants. Does he need a defensive RB or an attacking RB? Should he be better in going forward and dribble past players or should he be the old fashioned type of RB who hugs the line and cross the ball efficiently? What about height? Is it important to be physically imposing (ex AWB whose 6ft tall) or isn't that characteristic not important? Once these characteristics had been agreed then it would be up to the DOF to find the player the manager needs based on that criteria. He's the guy who spend his life scouting and checking whose available or whose not. Of course the manager is constantly kept updated if he wants to (ex through videos etc). However don't expect the manager to go through a list and decide which one to buy and whom we're discarding. In that case then the manager will always go for the player he knows about ie in Ole's case the EPL proven player, while LVG would go for Dutch players (Blind, Depay etc), players he had previously worked with (Bastian, Valdes etc) with the occasional big name everyone knew about (Falcao, ADM)

Its also unfair on the manager to be judged on an areas he doesn't got the time, the contacts (whose available, who wants to join us etc) or the scouting skills to complete successfully (ie transfers success rate). He should be judged on his tactical awareness and team morale. Breaking the job into small tasks which is done by specialised people help the club to be more efficient and effective while concurrently impose accountability. If lets say the tactics are top notch but the players bought doesn't fit the manager's vision of play (ex Ole asks for a striker and the DOF brings him Henk Veerman) then its evident that the DOF is messing up. However if the team is tactically naive and the manager has lost the dressing room then its the manager's fault.
This. Plus it's obvious the two won't be having the discussion in isolation and if they have excellent working relations then there won't be a problem. The current structure we have makes the club vulnerable to managerial whims (see Mourinho-Matic, LVG - Schweinsteiger and Moyes - Fellaini) whose cost the club will be left bearing whilst the manager would have hightailed out of town with his payoff.

Another systemic weakness is that our football philosophy is entirely reliant on the current manager meaning that we are always rebuilding and changing players at an alarming rate everytime we change a manager. There is every likelihood that a new manager would find Ole's fabled signings totally unsuitable to his vision but with a DOF he can find you a manager who can implement what Ole was trying to implement and give you continuity.