Absolutely horrible midfield

Jezpeza · Nov 5, 2019

SadlerMUFC said:
That is basically what we are playing now. A 4-2-3-1. But unless Pogba is fit and we can build the squad around him, then it's a useless formation unless we get in a quality #10. Playing Mata, Lingard or Perreira in that position as we have been (even when Pogba was fit) is useless. Perhaps with Fred putting in better performances of late we can go to that formation once Pogba is fit again. But until then I would hope Ole scraps this formation...

i agree. It works well if we play them in behind But, they aren't so free form when we try to play through the opposition theres just no movement there.

ultimately we invite pressure onto ourselves as well as we want to let the opposition come forwards and then counter attack. Our whole setup is geared to bypass the midfield because its garbage

Leftback99 · Nov 5, 2019

billybee99 said:
A different manager might not have McTominay, Fred and Pereira playing in the same midfield. Food for thought.

He could use all those other options we have.

RedWat · Nov 5, 2019

flappyjay said:
They work well from how klopp uses them but after fabinho and maybe Wijnaldum the others are average. I don't look at henderson, keita, milner and say wow. The Chelsea midfield on the other hand really looks good, both from a defensive stand point and creative stand point. You wouldn't notice that Kante has been missing for a few weeks now, which also means they have depth. Pogba is out and we look even more clueless. That's my opinion on them

Most of the Liverpool midfielders irrespective of their skill set posses the same fundamental commodity...A winner's mindset I see that in Fabinho,Wijnaldum, Henderson, & especially Milner (jury still out on Keita), I believe Klopp doesn't just buy and use players because how good they are or if they can fit a role but if they have the right mentality for the club which the above has, that is the reason why they have won the champions league (after being in two finals) nearly accumulated 100 points in the league last season and are unbeaten this season. Even though they are not playing that well at the moment they find a way to get a result. Talent can only get you so far, perseverance and the right mentality gets you the rest of the way, as I mentioned in a previous post only McT in the current united midfield has that mentality(not including players like Mata or Matic who "had it" but are now "past it"), and that is the problem he is a kid and he cannot do it on his own.

Jezpeza · Nov 5, 2019

RedWat said:
Most of the Liverpool midfielders irrespective of their skill set posses the same fundamental commodity...A winner's mindset I see that in Fabinho,Wijnaldum, Henderson, & especially Milner (jury still out on Keita), I believe Klopp doesn't just buy and use players because how good they are or if they can fit a role but if they have the right mentality for the club which the above has, that is the reason why they have won the champions league (after being in two finals) nearly accumulated 100 points in the league last season and are unbeaten this season. Even though they are not playing that well at the moment they find a way to get a result. Talent can only get you so far, perseverance and the right mentality gets you the rest of the way, as I mentioned in a previous post only McT in the current united midfield has that mentality(not including players like Mata or Matic who "had it" but are now "past it"), and that is the problem he is a kid and he cannot do it on his own.

what shocks me about our midfield is their inability to play simple passes. Ive watched so many ground passes to the wings etc go out. Henderson is average but has good fitness and he always gets blocks in etc or plays a simple pass. I Still dont understand us tactically, playing a flat back 4 and two holding midfielders with a static front three when trying to break teams down. Dont have that player in the middle of the park who can pick a killer pass and dont really have anyone who races box to box to assist at both ends.

goatmeister · Nov 6, 2019

DVG7 said:
I think the only midfields that are considerably better than ours are City and Liverpool. The average age of City's players who have played centrally is 27.2 and for Liverpool its 28.1. In contrast, Ours is 25.4, and I think its fair to say that our midfield could be performing to a much higher standard a few years from now even if we kept the same players.

Are you serious? Get any combo 3 from Pogba plus whoever and try to compare.

Chelsea: Kante + Kovacic + Jorginho.
I would argue comparable or even better than Livepool midfield 3.

Kante needs no explaination; Kovacic is a rapid dribbler (esp. in tight spaces), very hard to dispossess, can pass well; Jorginho can dictates play and has very good passing range.

Leicester: Ndidi + Maddison + Tielemans
Ndidi is strong and tackles effectively; Maddison is dynamic, has excellect techniques and scores regularly, Tielemans plays smart game, has excellent passing and scores occasionaly.

Spurs: Ndombele + Sissoko + Eriksen
Spurs as whole are below par but I think this combo is still better than United's.

In my opinion, United's mid is of Wolves and Arsenal level.

Velvet Revolver · Nov 6, 2019

He'sRaldo said:
I've suggested before that we should forget about Pogba as a CM, and put him in an attacking role. He carried us plenty when Ole was interim as an AM with goals and assists, I wonder if putting him even higher and giving him less defensive duties can produce the same effect.

Pogba as attacking midfielder is a no brainer and could work but Ole is more likely to play him as a midfield 2.

He'sRaldo · Nov 6, 2019

Velvet Revolver said:
Pogba as attacking midfielder is a no brainer and could work but Ole is more likely to play him as a midfield 2.

I was actually thinking more false nine with Rashford and Martial either side of him and 3 hardworking CM's behind him. Dan James off the bench instead of Mata or Lingard.

If we want to go more attacking then all four of them on the pitch with Martial CF and Pogba AM.

thepolice123 · Nov 6, 2019

RedWat said:
Most of the Liverpool midfielders irrespective of their skill set posses the same fundamental commodity...A winner's mindset I see that in Fabinho,Wijnaldum, Henderson, & especially Milner (jury still out on Keita), I believe Klopp doesn't just buy and use players because how good they are or if they can fit a role but if they have the right mentality for the club which the above has, that is the reason why they have won the champions league (after being in two finals) nearly accumulated 100 points in the league last season and are unbeaten this season. Even though they are not playing that well at the moment they find a way to get a result. Talent can only get you so far, perseverance and the right mentality gets you the rest of the way, as I mentioned in a previous post only McT in the current united midfield has that mentality(not including players like Mata or Matic who "had it" but are now "past it"), and that is the problem he is a kid and he cannot do it on his own.

How about simply because all of them are excellent players? Wijnaldum is an attacking midfielder converted to box-to-box. He put in 11 goals from midfield for a team that was relegated. In the Netherlands he is regarded as the successor to Seedorf. Fabinho was the midfield lynchpin of a team that broke the PSG monopoly in France and Henderson has been ever present in the Liverpool team regardless of manager and midfielders signed.

In Rainbows · Nov 6, 2019

Velvet Revolver said:
Pogba as attacking midfielder is a no brainer and could work but Ole is more likely to play him as a midfield 2.

We run into a problem regardless.

Play Pogba as a 6 = He's the only one who can properly supply the forwards, and we lose out on chance creation
Play Pogba as the furthest forward midfielder = He's the only one who can pass between the lines and so Pogba is starved of service

It all comes down to lack of quality.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills when I read elsewhere on the forum that we need an attacking midfielder. It's literally the opposite. We lack someone who can run the game through their passing. Someone who is the safest passing option for our players who you can trust to retain possession in the smallest spaces. That player needs to have top class first touch, technique, awareness, always wanting the ball, and can pass between the lines. The only reason why Pogba is played in this role is because he has many of these qualities, but it's not his desire to be a constant passing force because he does want to attack.

The 2nd midfielder we need is the one who is a defensive presence. McTominay, like Herrera, is a makeshift defensive presence. They're not excellent in that department, but they do put in effort most times. They're box to box players, but at the same time don't excel in any area. Fred is currently trying to do this job too, but it's also clear he's not some defensive specialist.

Think back to the best midfields over our lifetime (not as rigid as I make it seem, just bear with me). The 4 things you want accomplished are passing, defending, attacking, and providing energy.

Xavi (pass), Iniesta (attack), Busquets (defense)
Pirlo (pass), Pogba (attack), Vidal (energy+all arounder)
Modric (pass), Kroos (pass), Casemiro (defense)
Gerrard (attack), Xabi (pass), Mascherano (defense)
*Notice that when summed up, they cover each other's weakness and provide the necessary energy required as a group

I'm honestly surprised United fans overlook the best midfielders in the past decades in Xavi, Scholes, and Modric. You need that type of midfielder who you can trust is going to supply everyone, find a way to retain possession, dissuade the opposition from pressing, etc... I thought Verratti was turning into that type of player, but his form didn't last as long as those 3 at his peak. I value that player more than the ones who don't have as much energy, and sit back to spray passes (Carrick, Xabi, Pirlo). It's possible for someone to rise to the top due to energy, combative ability, and being an all arounder like Keane and Vidal. I think they're rare though, but beasts when at the top of their game.

RedWat said:
Most of the Liverpool midfielders irrespective of their skill set posses the same fundamental commodity...A winner's mindset I see that in Fabinho,Wijnaldum, Henderson, & especially Milner (jury still out on Keita), I believe Klopp doesn't just buy and use players because how good they are or if they can fit a role but if they have the right mentality for the club which the above has, that is the reason why they have won the champions league (after being in two finals) nearly accumulated 100 points in the league last season and are unbeaten this season. Even though they are not playing that well at the moment they find a way to get a result. Talent can only get you so far, perseverance and the right mentality gets you the rest of the way, as I mentioned in a previous post only McT in the current united midfield has that mentality(not including players like Mata or Matic who "had it" but are now "past it"), and that is the problem he is a kid and he cannot do it on his own.

I think it's worth remembering that Klopp felt he needed to improve his midfield before last season. That's why they got Fabinho, Keita, and were close to signing Fekir. It's just that Keita didn't take as well to the team as Fabinho did, but it's clear that Klopp felt that was the one area that needed improvement.

thepolice123 · Nov 6, 2019

In Rainbows said:
We run into a problem regardless.

Play Pogba as a 6 = He's the only one who can properly supply the forwards, and we lose out on chance creation
Play Pogba as the furthest forward midfielder = He's the only one who can pass between the lines and so Pogba is starved of service

It all comes down to lack of quality.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills when I read elsewhere on the forum that we need an attacking midfielder. It's literally the opposite. We lack someone who can run the game through their passing. Someone who is the safest passing option for our players who you can trust to retain possession in the smallest spaces. That player needs to have top class first touch, technique, awareness, always wanting the ball, and can pass between the lines. The only reason why Pogba is played in this role is because he has many of these qualities, but it's not his desire to be a constant passing force because he does want to attack.

The 2nd midfielder we need is the one who is a defensive presence. McTominay, like Herrera, is a makeshift defensive presence. They're not excellent in that department, but they do put in effort most times. They're box to box players, but at the same time don't excel in any area. Fred is currently trying to do this job too, but it's also clear he's not some defensive specialist.

Think back to the best midfields over our lifetime (not as rigid as I make it seem, just bear with me). The 4 things you want accomplished are passing, defending, attacking, and providing energy.

Xavi (pass), Iniesta (attack), Busquets (defense)
Pirlo (pass), Pogba (attack), Vidal (energy+all arounder)
Modric (pass), Kroos (pass), Casemiro (defense)
Gerrard (attack), Xabi (pass), Mascherano (defense)

I'm honestly surprised United fans overlook the best midfielders in the past decades in Xavi, Scholes, and Modric. You need that type of midfielder who you can trust is going to supply everyone, find a way to retain possession, dissuade the opposition from pressing, etc... I thought Verratti was turning into that type of player, but his form didn't last as long as those 3 at his peak. I value that player more than the ones who don't have as much energy, and sit back to spray passes (Carrick, Xabi, Pirlo). It's possible for someone to rise to the top due to energy, combative ability, and being an all arounder like Keane and Vidal. I think they're rare though, but beasts when at the top of their game.

I think it's worth remembering that Klopp felt he needed to improve his midfield before last season. That's why they got Fabinho, Keita, and were close to signing Fekir. It's just that Keita didn't take as well to the team as Fabinho did, but it's clear that Klopp felt that was the one area that needed improvement.

Bizzare that you listed a midfield that has no defensive midfielder specialist but still state that we need one.

In Rainbows · Nov 6, 2019

thepolice123 said:
Bizzare that you listed a midfield that has no defensive midfielder specialist but still state that we need one.

You missed this part
"Think back to the best midfields over our lifetime (not as rigid as I make it seem, just bear with me). The 4 things you want accomplished are passing, defending, attacking, and providing energy."

As there are 4 things needing to be covered, players can cover a certain part collectively. In the case you highlighted, Vidal provides a lot (I mean a lot) of energy to compensate for Pogba and Pirlo, which allows him to contribute defensively. You combine this energy with Pirlo, who although lacks energy, stays back to compensate meaning he can utilize positioning to help out defensively. This is similar to Matic's role except Pirlo is a better passer, same with Carrick in his later years. Combined as a trio, defense isn't left wanting.

I specifically mentioned different types of combinations because there are multiple ways of accomplishing the 4 tasks with only 3 players forming the midfield. Look at Kroos and Modric, I listed two passers, because unlike Pirlo, they're more mobile. They can go forward to help out whenever needed, and they don't technically need a Vidal type who has bundles of energy.

Our midfield literally lacks 2 important things to make up a class midfield.

*Another edit :lol:

Just compare our midfield of Pogba, Herrera, and Matic compared to Pogba, Vidal, and Pirlo. Herrera was doing Vidal's role, and Matic was doing Pirlo's role. As Matic and Pirlo aren't defensive specialists, they also need something else in their locker. Matic has nothing so if he's not some defensive specialist, you can upgrade him. Pirlo was a brilliant passer. Although Herrera had Vidal's energy, just look at the attacking output he had compared to Vidal. 15 and 18 goals in 2 of his seasons with Juve.

Leicester are accomplishing this except not to the level of those all time great sides. They have Maddison, Tielemans, and Ndidi. For as decent as Scott has been, what exactly does he excel at? Thankfully, when our midfield is as bad as it is, what Scott provides is necessary right now. However, if we upgrade, his importance will dwindle unless he improves in attack, passing, or defending. Fred? He's trying to pass through the lines and does have energy, but isn't some specialist in anything. It's clear how much we lack in quality for 2 of our deeper midfielders and with Pogba injured, in all 3 midfield positions.

UNITED ACADEMY · Nov 6, 2019

There is no sign of positive in our midfield right now.

Apart from Pogba there is nothing for opposition team can be scared of our midfield. Can't control the midfield, can't dominate the midfield, can't create chances, & struggle to pass & hold the ball.

McTomminay & Fred only offer energy in our midfield. However, the quality is not there. McTomminay at least is still young and can get better, but Fred won't be getting much better than his current one. Matic is ball watching deadwood who is lazy to even move. Our attacking midfield option are horrendous, Mata, Pereira & Lingard. Attacking mid with no end product are just not good enough. How is McTomminay has better end product than our three attacking mid, shocking!

At least with our front three, they look dangerous with pace, technique, & with some quality even though there is some weakness. They might still young but they are still considered to be threat for defenders. Let's be real, no defenders would love to face our front three but there are lot of midfielders who will enjoy facing our midfield apart from Pogba.

We need minimum 2 signings in midfield area. If Pogba leaves then we need minimum 3 signings. Forget about the forwards, midfield is more priority first. If we can improve the midfield first, our forward will look better & defensively we will be even better.

Ikon · Nov 6, 2019

RedWat said:
I disagree, the problem stems from the owners. If they really cared for the club and had a vision for it to be the best team in the world, instead of treating it like a cash cow, then they would have hired a DOF ages ago...

The Glazers do NOT care about the club, never have, never will.
Their only concern is the business aspect and making money, but this is sort of my point.
They are not interested in the football side and not particularly involved in making footballing decisions, they leave that to the 'footballing experts' at the club.
Its the 'football experts' that have made shitty footballing decisions.

Raw · Nov 6, 2019

In Rainbows said:
We run into a problem regardless.

Play Pogba as a 6 = He's the only one who can properly supply the forwards, and we lose out on chance creation
Play Pogba as the furthest forward midfielder = He's the only one who can pass between the lines and so Pogba is starved of service

It all comes down to lack of quality.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills when I read elsewhere on the forum that we need an attacking midfielder. It's literally the opposite. We lack someone who can run the game through their passing. Someone who is the safest passing option for our players who you can trust to retain possession in the smallest spaces. That player needs to have top class first touch, technique, awareness, always wanting the ball, and can pass between the lines. The only reason why Pogba is played in this role is because he has many of these qualities, but it's not his desire to be a constant passing force because he does want to attack.

The 2nd midfielder we need is the one who is a defensive presence. McTominay, like Herrera, is a makeshift defensive presence. They're not excellent in that department, but they do put in effort most times. They're box to box players, but at the same time don't excel in any area. Fred is currently trying to do this job too, but it's also clear he's not some defensive specialist.

Think back to the best midfields over our lifetime (not as rigid as I make it seem, just bear with me). The 4 things you want accomplished are passing, defending, attacking, and providing energy.

Xavi (pass), Iniesta (attack), Busquets (defense)
Pirlo (pass), Pogba (attack), Vidal (energy+all arounder)
Modric (pass), Kroos (pass), Casemiro (defense)
Gerrard (attack), Xabi (pass), Mascherano (defense)
*Notice that when summed up, they cover each other's weakness and provide the necessary energy required as a group

I'm honestly surprised United fans overlook the best midfielders in the past decades in Xavi, Scholes, and Modric. You need that type of midfielder who you can trust is going to supply everyone, find a way to retain possession, dissuade the opposition from pressing, etc... I thought Verratti was turning into that type of player, but his form didn't last as long as those 3 at his peak. I value that player more than the ones who don't have as much energy, and sit back to spray passes (Carrick, Xabi, Pirlo). It's possible for someone to rise to the top due to energy, combative ability, and being an all arounder like Keane and Vidal. I think they're rare though, but beasts when at the top of their game.

I think it's worth remembering that Klopp felt he needed to improve his midfield before last season. That's why they got Fabinho, Keita, and were close to signing Fekir. It's just that Keita didn't take as well to the team as Fabinho did, but it's clear that Klopp felt that was the one area that needed improvement.

Good post. We really lack balance in our midfield. If we went with a midfield 3, our first choice midfield would likely be Pogba (attack), McTominay (energy), Fred (energy??). Then there's Matic (defence) who's just not good anymore and seems to not be included in Ole's plans. There's also Garner who interestingly could be that passing specialist, but he's not ready for such a big role just yet.

The problem is, those kinds of passing midfielders are very rare and very difficult to find. I can't think of any attainable target we could chase who can offer that kind of attribute.

It also doesn't help that the midfield doesn't seem to be coached that well anyway. Players aren't making themselves available for simple passing options, while also moving into space to produce quick 1-2s that can get through midfield and defensive lines. Most of the time we're just too slow and the opposition is given time to reshape their team.

Alabaster Codify7 · Nov 6, 2019

We've somehow had an awful,awful set of midfield players for about 10yrs. It's madness that we actually won a title or two in that period because even under SAF in his final years our midfield was disgustingly bad.

Bestietom · Nov 6, 2019

Varun said:
Don't forget Pereira.

The most skillful one for that position we have not given enough chances. GOMES.

AneRu · Nov 6, 2019

Ikon said:
The Glazers do NOT care about the club, never have, never will.
Their only concern is the business aspect and making money, but this is sort of my point.
They are not interested in the football side and not particularly involved in making footballing decisions, they leave that to the 'footballing experts' at the club.
Its the 'football experts' that have made shitty footballing decisions.

The Glazers are negligent on the football side and their biggest crime has been giving Woodward too much power and freedom at the club. Imagine which club would tolerate its transfer negotiator doing one deal at a time and taking a minimum of six weeks to complete one deal? I think they care enough about the results on the football side since they sanction huge deals for players and seem to take corrective action in sacking managers but are too incompetent to point at the root of our issues, Woodward and his College buddies playing FM with the fortunes of our club.

Our midfield is bad but which midfield wouldn't be horrible if it lost three key players who weren't replaced? By saying 3 I am obviously counting Matic who is done in this league. The decision to go into the season without signing at least two midfielders was baffling and is what is hurting us right now.

Bestietom · Nov 6, 2019

When a new manager comes in, we will see none of our midfielders in the side. Yes, NONE.

Eric's Seagull · Nov 6, 2019

Think we are missing replacing Herrera. If Pogba stays I think we need another creative midfielder brought in to help him. If Pogba does go, which I think will happen, I would like to see us try a swap deal with PSG for Verratti and some cash coming our way should they be interested.

Not sure whether Verratti would want to come as he has just signed a new deal it may be to keep his value high.

flappyjay · Nov 6, 2019

Eric's Seagull said:
Think we are missing replacing Herrera. If Pogba stays I think we need another creative midfielder brought in to help him. If Pogba does go, which I think will happen, I would like to see us try a swap deal with PSG for Verratti and some cash coming our way should they be interested.

Not sure whether Verratti would want to come as he has just signed a new deal it may be to keep his value high.

Only up and comers will willingly come, The likes of Bruno fernandes, SMS, Van de Beek we are step up for those. Verratti knows the likes of Barca and Juventus would love to have him.

Eric's Seagull · Nov 6, 2019

flappyjay said:
Only up and comers will willingly come, The likes of Bruno fernandes, SMS, Van de Beek we are step up for those. Verratti knows the likes of Barca and Juventus would love to have him.

I thought for years that Verratti was nailed on to sign for Juventus. Although I haven't seen much of him this season Bruno Fernandes has very good stats so far 5 goals and 5 assists in 9 in the league.

JPRouve · Nov 6, 2019

Eric's Seagull said:
Think we are missing replacing Herrera. If Pogba stays I think we need another creative midfielder brought in to help him. If Pogba does go, which I think will happen, I would like to see us try a swap deal with PSG for Verratti and some cash coming our way should they be interested.

Not sure whether Verratti would want to come as he has just signed a new deal it may be to keep his value high.

Verratti extended his contract last week, he is going nowhere.

flappyjay · Nov 6, 2019

Eric's Seagull said:
I thought for years that Verratti was nailed on to sign for Juventus. Although I haven't seen much of him this season Bruno Fernandes has very good stats so far 5 goals and 5 assists in 9 in the league.

It's not easy to leave psg

Minkaro · Nov 6, 2019

We're missing a lot from our midfield. McTominay is fine, a good squad player with potential, but I don't see a defensive specialist in there, and without Pogba there isn't really a creator/goalscorer. As it happens, somebody posted over on another forum that Liverpool's defence and attack have scored 17 goals in 17 games between them (Robertson 2, VVD, TAA, Matip and Hoever with 1 each in the defence, then you've got Ox 4, Milner 3, Wijnaldum 2, Henderson and Lallana with 1 each).

So that prompted me to look at the other top teams.

City - Defence (Walker, Otamendi 2), Midfield (Gundogan 2, Rodri, De Bruyne 2, Silva 4, D. Silva 3, Mahrez 3, Foden) makes 19 in 17.
Leicester - Defence (Peirerea 2, Chilwell, Soyuncu, Justin), Midfield (Tielemans 5, Maddison 5, Ndidi 2, Barnes 1, Gray 1) makes 19 in 14.
Chelsea - Defence (James 2, Alonso, Zouma, Azpilicueta, Tomori), Midfield (Jorginho 4, MOunt 4, Pulisic 4, Willian 3, Kante 2, Barkley, Pedro, CHO) makes 26 in 18.
Arsenal - Defence (Luiz 2, Chambers, Holding, Papasthaetc), Midfield (WIllock 4, Torreira 2, Ceballos, Maitland-Niles) makes 13 in 16.
Man Utd - Defence (I prefer not to speak, if I speak I am in trouble), Midfield (James 3, McTominay 2) makes 5 in 16.

Now, I'm going off Wikipedia in terms of who's MF and who's FW, and I know that's debatable in some cases, but we are so far behind everyone else. If we had an incredible striker up front it wouldn't hurt so much, but we don't. Rashford may get there, but he's not there now, and our midfield frankly NEED to contribute more. If they can't, then it's an area that needs drastic repairs.

Member 119614 · Nov 6, 2019

It's troublesome yes. Pereira was in so much space vs Bournemouth I think he does see what needs to be done but he lacks the confidence to pull it off. His passing is too long and then it's too short. It's never on point. He should think faster and play on instinct as he has the technique to do that.

Fred is sloppy too. Unlike Pereira this guy has got the confidence but not the ability which results in losing possession too often. Mostly after a poor misplaced pass.

McTominay is one of those players you just forgive for making a sloppy pass because he goes full speed every game. He plays like a leader, he is a warrior and we should absolutely put our faith in him to make it here.

Pogba loses too much possession because he likes to pick the hard way to do things instead of keeping it simple. football is simple, he doesn't understand that. He should be more humble. It could work if he switches places with Pereira I guess.

Matic is a bit slow but by far our most reliable passer, he keeps it simple

Ban · Nov 6, 2019

Yet some were happy to see Ander go.
2 proper players bought and suddenly it looks a lot better. This was its bare bones.

Bestietom · Nov 6, 2019

Ban said:
Yet some were happy to see Ander go.
2 proper players bought and suddenly it looks a lot better. This was its bare bones.

How many times have we heard this @Ban . When a player moves on, he was never good enough. Now they wish we had him back.

DomesticTadpole · Nov 6, 2019

Bestietom said:
How many times have we heard this @Ban . When a player moves on, he was never good enough. Now they wish we had him back.

Some probably said that because they presumed we were going to sign an even better player to replace him. Silly people.

Ban · Nov 6, 2019

Bestietom said:
How many times have we heard this @Ban . When a player moves on, he was never good enough. Now they wish we had him back.

Yup. It happens time and time again.

Sandikan · Nov 6, 2019

Ballache said:
People laughed when I suggested during summer that, in case Pogba leaves, we should go all in and sign Ndidi, Madison and Neves. The answers were "so you are basically saying Leicester's midfield plus Neves would improve us".

People laughed as that would take a ridiculous amount of dosh.

C'est Moi Cantona · Nov 6, 2019

Imagine Fellaini and Herrera coming into our midfield now, we would suddenly look credible again, maybe still a bit crap, but credible all the same, as it is until Pogba comes back then I don't think there's many worse midfields in the premiership, yet that was blatantly obvious in the summer..

thepolice123 · Nov 6, 2019

In Rainbows said:
You missed this part
"Think back to the best midfields over our lifetime (not as rigid as I make it seem, just bear with me). The 4 things you want accomplished are passing, defending, attacking, and providing energy."

As there are 4 things needing to be covered, players can cover a certain part collectively. In the case you highlighted, Vidal provides a lot (I mean a lot) of energy to compensate for Pogba and Pirlo, which allows him to contribute defensively. You combine this energy with Pirlo, who although lacks energy, stays back to compensate meaning he can utilize positioning to help out defensively. This is similar to Matic's role except Pirlo is a better passer, same with Carrick in his later years. Combined as a trio, defense isn't left wanting.

I specifically mentioned different types of combinations because there are multiple ways of accomplishing the 4 tasks with only 3 players forming the midfield. Look at Kroos and Modric, I listed two passers, because unlike Pirlo, they're more mobile. They can go forward to help out whenever needed, and they don't technically need a Vidal type who has bundles of energy.

Our midfield literally lacks 2 important things to make up a class midfield.

*Another edit
Just compare our midfield of Pogba, Herrera, and Matic compared to Pogba, Vidal, and Pirlo. Herrera was doing Vidal's role, and Matic was doing Pirlo's role. As Matic and Pirlo aren't defensive specialists, they also need something else in their locker. Matic has nothing so if he's not some defensive specialist, you can upgrade him. Pirlo was a brilliant passer. Although Herrera had Vidal's energy, just look at the attacking output he had compared to Vidal. 15 and 18 goals in 2 of his seasons with Juve.

Leicester are accomplishing this except not to the level of those all time great sides. They have Maddison, Tielemans, and Ndidi. For as decent as Scott has been, what exactly does he excel at? Thankfully, when our midfield is as bad as it is, what Scott provides is necessary right now. However, if we upgrade, his importance will dwindle unless he improves in attack, passing, or defending. Fred? He's trying to pass through the lines and does have energy, but isn't some specialist in anything. It's clear how much we lack in quality for 2 of our deeper midfielders and with Pogba injured, in all 3 midfield positions.

I get your point but its not really rocket science that a title winning team needs a quality midfield that are multi-faceted.

I think the key thing is not whether we do we need specific player profiles to fulfill different roles in midfield, but rather we need to find our football identity/ethos and then decide on who are the midfielders we really need.

It is a bit of an overly simplistic view because passing, defending, energy and attacking intent are very broad terms and essentially required from every member of the XI? And you are talking predominantly a 3-man mdifield.

Our regular midfield starters from 06-08 were Scholes and Carrick in a double pivot. Both aren't really renowned for their energy or defensive workrate, they didn't contribute much in attack as well if we are talking about assists and goals. The Real Madrid side under Ancelotti had the trio of Di Maria, Modric and Alonso, none really known for their defensive work. Di Maria provides the energy but it in the attacking sense. The Inter Milan side didn't really had an "8" in midfield. Maybe Cambiasso but he is more of grafter type. Sneijder functioned like a SS/AM. The Bayern Munich team that thrashed Barca had Schweinsteiger and Martinez against the Xavi-Iniesta-Busquets trio.

flappyjay · Nov 6, 2019

Ban said:
Yet some were happy to see Ander go.
2 proper players bought and suddenly it looks a lot better. This was its bare bones.

Because no one in his right mind thought we wouldnt buy atleast 2 cm's. We felt we needed three but would settle for 2.

Lee565 · Nov 13, 2019

I dont think the midfield is a lost cause and has decent potential.

we are seeing fred looking better and better within a more settled set up and a real run in the team.

I think what could make a massive difference and bring better balance to the midfield until either January or until the end of the season is if Tuanzebe with all his qualities could do a good job as a defensive midfielder, it would free up pogba and Scott mctominay to venture forward more and whilst matic shouldnt be used as defensive midfielder I think to have axel sitting next to him in midfield and allowing matic to play purely as a deep lying playmaker would be a far better use of matic's strengths, if such a thing worked it would be like gaining 2 new midfield signings.

M Bison · Nov 13, 2019

Our midfield certainly is not as bad as some of the hysterical posters in this thread are making out.

Tom Cato · Nov 13, 2019

TRUERED89 said:
Letting Herrera go was a monumental feck up, really infuriating. He'd be vital right now in a 3 with McT and Pogba . Absolute horror show! No Herrera wasn't prime Xavi but he could definitely pick a through pass in-behind a back line.

No one let Herrera go, his contract situation was grossly mismanaged by Ed Woodward and chose to leave. That is why we have started to renew contracts early this time around.

Tom Cato · Nov 13, 2019

Suvvernmanc said:
Ole seems to not rate Matic.. thankfully! Hes awful. But Ole going into this season thinking that Fred, Mctominay, Andreas, Garner and Pogba would be an acceptable amount of midfielders and also from a quality point of view is beyond stupid.

That must be why we were trying to buy Christian Eriksen and Sean Longstaff, because Ole was happy with the options we had.

Suvvernmanc · Nov 14, 2019

Tom Cato said:
That must be why we were trying to buy Christian Eriksen and Sean Longstaff, because Ole was happy with the options we had.

I feel the sarcasm. Why let Herrera go then? That was partly my point. The midfield is terrible and Ole and woody are absolutely at fault for letting it happen. You have all summer to get the targets and get the deal done. Sean Longstaff was unattainable, that much was obvious. £50m? Na! And Cristian Eriksen were just rumours were they not?

Walters_19_MuFc · Nov 16, 2019

Our midfield isnt that bad, especially when everyone is on form, but we lack technicians. In McTominay, Fred and Matic, we have ball winning midfielders, rather than midfielders that can get on the ball and dictate play.

Pogba is our only technician and even he can be inconsistent at times, regards keeping the ball and dictating play.

Matic seems to be as good as gone, so if we are to get a midfielder, it needs to be a ball playing midfielder.

That way, we would have two ball playing midfielders in Pogba and New Midfielder and two ball winners in Fred and McTominay.

People will say we lack a proper holding midfielder who sits in front of the back four, but our double pivot most often dovetail with each other.

Bobcat · Nov 16, 2019

Imo, we need at least two well rounded box to box CM's and a new #10. Fred and McTomminay are alright at CM and has looked better lately, but i would not exactly call the world class and even if they step up and show they truly deserve to be starters, we are incredibly thin in regards to backup. Pogba has never looked comfortable in a midfield two and Matic finished

We have plenty of people who can play #10, the problem is that none of them are good enough. Lindgaard and Pereira is decent at running and pressing, but offer zero attacking threat and Mata has lost his legs

A 433 of Fred, Pogba and McTomminay would probably he alright, or a 4231 with Pogba in the advanced role, but one or two injures (like we have now) and its pretty dire in regards to options.

Absolutely horrible midfield

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can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate

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Doom-monger obsessed with Herrera & the M.E.N.

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