Agreed, who would you actually trust?I agree with that. I also see that our defenders would rather not pass to the midfielders even if they have some space. They don't fully trust that the mids will keep the ball.
I think Maguire is a good player and good addition to the club. However with that transfer I have two issues:Funny, I don't remember too many posters writing that Maguire was a bad deal. Now, all the knives are out. Maguire is a very good central defender who can be our rock in the middle for years. His aerial wins are worth 20 mil a year. We just have to find a good partner for him, I like Lindelof but I'm not sure he is the answer.
You’ve literally listed things that fall into the list of things to hate.I will explain and see if you can counter:
1. None of the players have been coached, no improvements the coaches cant get players to even play at 80% of their ability.
2. Leaving subs too later when we have been outplayed. Most games we are outplayed in the first 20 mins yet we wait till 75 mins to make subs.
3. There is no style of play, there is nothing to like
4. there is no midfield.
5/ 6. Owners dont care about football
7. We conceded from a goal kick V Villa, there is an attitude problem.
I think Maguire is a good player and good addition to the club. However with that transfer I have two issues:
1. He's not 80m buy, far from it. There are other options that would be better ones, without the premium and no drop in quality.
2. Spending the biggest chunk of our budget on CB, whereas we had a dire need of CM and CF - way more important.
This is what I believe as well. The only reason we cannot attend to the rebuild properly right now is because the money isn't available. Hence, we get Woodward saying it's a multi-year rebuild. I can't remember which United podcast it was (United weekly perhaps) where they listed all the top clubs in Europe that signed 6-7-8 players before this season.I think it's blatantly obvious (to those fans who aren't blinkered or brainwashed) that we had a budget of £80m or similar this summer, despite what 'we read in the papers' about a warchest. The same sort of budget Jose had the previous summer. Ole was clearly told it was either Maguire or a striker/midfielder because that signing was going to be covered by selling Lukaku.
I, and a few others, said at the time - watch how quickly Maguire is a 'done deal' after Romelu is officially sold.....despite us knowing for quite some time what Leicester want for him. It was obvious we were waiting for that sale to make the purchase.
Ole made his choice. I can't hold it against him too much, because hindsight is a wonderful thing. I was happy with the signing because I felt Maguire would be a noticeable upgrade when in fact, he hasn't been.
However, Ole made his choice and now has to live/die by it. Whether there should have been a choice in the first place is a different story.
I think that the £80m-£100m net budget got some validity to it as well. And most likely OGS knew this.I think it's blatantly obvious (to those fans who aren't blinkered or brainwashed) that we had a budget of £80m or similar this summer, despite what 'we read in the papers' about a warchest. The same sort of budget Jose had the previous summer. Ole was clearly told it was either Maguire or a striker/midfielder because that signing was going to be covered by selling Lukaku.
I, and a few others, said at the time - watch how quickly Maguire is a 'done deal' after Romelu is officially sold.....despite us knowing for quite some time what Leicester want for him. It was obvious we were waiting for that sale to make the purchase.
Ole made his choice. I can't hold it against him too much, because hindsight is a wonderful thing. I was happy with the signing because I felt Maguire would be a noticeable upgrade when in fact, he hasn't been.
However, Ole made his choice and now has to live/die by it. Whether there should have been a choice in the first place is a different story.
As I’ve mentioned loads in here, some players are just more likeable to fans. If you honestly think we’re a better side with Martial up top rather than Lukaku then you’re so blinkered it’s untrue.Smalling: Possibly. I wont' argue against the idea that he might have been better than Lindelöf as a partner for Maguire. But I really don't think it's a clear cut case, for one thing - and a) he's thirty and b) wanted the move himself.
Lukaku: Forget it. He doesn't replace anyone in Ole's preferred attacking setup. Given how we actually play, he wouldn't improve us at all. As a bench/backup option - yes, possibly. But he doesn't fancy himself as a bench/backup option. Like Smalling, he wanted the move.
Fellaini: Yes, what? He might have, possibly, done better than Pereira or Fred in a designated CM/DM role? Yeah, he might have. But he was never anything but an utterly mediocre player in that capacity. His strengths were of the kind you exploit in a specialized setup - one that hardly anyone would want us to opt for. If Ole had kept Fellaini and played him to his strengths, he would've been slaughtered on here - not least because it probably wouldn't have yielded any better results.
Matic: Alienated as it seems, yes. But he has done quite a lot himself to find himself in that position. Specifically by being shite and looking decidedly finished on the top level. Do you really think that Ole should have gone for Matic as his go-to man (as Jose did)? If he had done so, he would have been slaughtered (again) for picking a player who isn't anywhere good enough (anymore).
Many were saying we will spend 200-300m before the Summer, which was ludicrous. 150m pounds is still a lot of money. I mean, acting surprised that we didn't signed another CM and CF for 50-100m each on top of those 150m pounds? Really?I think it's blatantly obvious (to those fans who aren't blinkered or brainwashed) that we had a budget of £80m or similar this summer, despite what 'we read in the papers' about a warchest. The same sort of budget Jose had the previous summer. Ole was clearly told it was either Maguire or a striker/midfielder because that signing was going to be covered by selling Lukaku.
I, and a few others, said at the time - watch how quickly Maguire is a 'done deal' after Romelu is officially sold.....despite us knowing for quite some time what Leicester want for him. It was obvious we were waiting for that sale to make the purchase.
Ole made his choice. I can't hold it against him too much, because hindsight is a wonderful thing. I was happy with the signing because I felt Maguire would be a noticeable upgrade when in fact, he hasn't been.
However, Ole made his choice and now has to live/die by it. Whether there should have been a choice in the first place is a different story.
Many were saying we will spend 200-300m before the Summer, which was ludicrous. 150m pounds is still a lot of money. I mean, acting surprised that we didn't signed another CM and CF for 50-100m each on top of those 150m pounds? Really?
I disagree, the CAF pointed out his flaws in excrutiating detial.Funny, I don't remember too many posters writing that Maguire was a bad deal. Now, all the knives are out. Maguire is a very good central defender who can be our rock in the middle for years. His aerial wins are worth 20 mil a year. We just have to find a good partner for him, I like Lindelof but I'm not sure he is the answer.
Very thorough critique, good post.I disagree, the CAF pointed out his flaws in excrutiating detial.
There were concerns about his passing range back in February
Some thought he was a donkey
People pointed out at his lack of recovery ability and thought he would be targeted and saw his faffing on the ball as kind of pointless; also concerns about him when the game becomes stretched
There were concerns about his lack of pace, or that him being paired with Lindeloff would be bad
Someone put his tag at 40m which I think is about right
That's just one page from his performance thread I pulled from. If you go through the entire thread you'll see many other posts like them -
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/harry-maguire.425839/post-23652913
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/harry-maguire.425839/page-22#post-23530049
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/harry-maguire.425839/page-22#post-23530061
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/harry-maguire.425839/page-22#post-23530448
When he's discussed in the context of Harry Maguire Leicester Player - Performances, he is assessed fairly by the CAF
When he's discussed in the context of Harry Maguire linked to United - there's no rational discussion there. Those threads are overtaken by muppets and those become an excruciating battle between the 'daddy want' camp and 'why haven't we signed him yet' camp.
I'd take Martial all day long over Lukaku and his 12 goals and horrible touch. You're the one that's "blinkered".As I’ve mentioned loads in here, some players are just more likeable to fans. If you honestly think we’re a better side with Martial up top rather than Lukaku then you’re so blinkered it’s untrue.
And if you think we’re better with Andreas and Fred rather than Matic and Fellaini there’s no hope for you.
Now these players ALL needing upgrading, I’m the first to admit that, I hated for example seeing Fellaini in a United shirt, but we haven’t upgraded, we’ve somehow managed to inexplicably fecking downgrade.
The table doesn’t lie, our transfer business since Ole took over has been wank
Many of the fans singing Lukaku's praises are doing so to use it as a weapon against Ole, whilst conveniently ignoring the fact that he longer wanted to remain a United player and was actively seeking a move away. Also, his commitment came under question when he allowed himself to become overweight.the opinion on Lukaku is divided on this forum. I think that we are far better off without him (even if there’s a gap in the short term) - but that debate has been done to death, and let’s go to the lukuku thread if we want to take it further.
however, I doubt there is a single person who would advocate Sanchez being in the side? He wouldn’t help us would he? How many minutes has he played for inter? Seems to miraculously be fit for international matches and constantly injured. Don’t worry though, he’s likely to be back with us in the summer as no one in their right kind is going to buy him.
Ha ha, sure, that PL table is just bullshitting us all.I'd take Martial all day long over Lukaku and his 12 goals and horrible touch. You're the one that's "blinkered".
No shit, cause Ole came in and made it clear he wasn’t gonna be first choice.Many of the fans singing Lukaku's praises are doing so to use it as a weapon against Ole, whilst conveniently ignoring the fact that he longer wanted to remain a United player and was actively seeking a move away.
Likewise into negativePeople were desperate to spin anything they could into a positive.
I think Ole would have been fine with Lukaku staying if that's what the player wanted. But rather than knuckle down and fight for his place, he chose to tuck tail and run. Ole wasn't about to force a player to stay against his will, as doing so serves no purpose other than to upset squad harmony, so he allowed him to move on. That's fair enough if you ask me.No shit, cause Ole came in and made it clear he wasn’t gonna be first choice.
As I say, I wanted him upgraded, but to upset him and thus sell him, therefore downgrading us as a team was a shit decision.
Sanchez on the other hand had to go, he’s never fit to start with and showed he no longer guarantees goals or assists. Still, I’d have him fit every day of the week over Andreas or Lingard.
Don’t get me wrong here @Random Task, I’d possibly also have said “yeah Martial should do fine, let Lukaku go”, maybe, I think I’d have ensured I got Manzukic or something over the line too but maybe not. And I was desperate for Fellaini to be fecked off.
Thing is, I was wrong, clearly and thank feck United don’t pay me to make decisions cause quite clearly we’re a much worse side and our transfer business since Ole came in cannot be described as anything other than very poor.
Are they better than what we had?No way the trio have been great.
James - most surprisingly good, value and expectation wise.
Wall - okay
Mag - honestly disappointing
Just overall fine.
Edit: the free recruits eg. Williams, Greenwood and Tuanzebe makes it better but alas we are where we are.
This is only - remotely - true if you completely ignore the actual setup at United. In any given team, under any given manager - yes, possibly. But that's a flawed way of looking on it.As I’ve mentioned loads in here, some players are just more likeable to fans. If you honestly think we’re a better side with Martial up top rather than Lukaku then you’re so blinkered it’s untrue.
And if you think we’re better with Andreas and Fred rather than Matic and Fellaini there’s no hope for you.
You might want to read the article from the athletic, completely states the opposite of this narrative.James was a good punt that Ole had no input in.
AWB was the top target produced by the club scouts for right back, and Ole said yes.
Maguire was the top target produced by club scouts for centre back, and Ole said yes.
That was his input in these deals, saying yes to them. Fair enough, but it's not like he unearthed any gems or sent his chief scout off somewhere to watch someone for a full season like Fergie would often do.
And let's not forget that this £160m defence (AWB+Linde+Maguire) is not exactly performing like a top four standard defence under Ole's tutelage, is it?
Thats b.s if the transfer was meant to be covered by selling Lukaku what was up with the Dybala Lukaku swap deal then? I think someone dropped the ball either the recruitment team didn't have viable targets or Woodward would only sanction a move for a "shirt seller"I think it's blatantly obvious (to those fans who aren't blinkered or brainwashed) that we had a budget of £80m or similar this summer, despite what 'we read in the papers' about a warchest. The same sort of budget Jose had the previous summer. Ole was clearly told it was either Maguire or a striker/midfielder because that signing was going to be covered by selling Lukaku.
I, and a few others, said at the time - watch how quickly Maguire is a 'done deal' after Romelu is officially sold.....despite us knowing for quite some time what Leicester want for him. It was obvious we were waiting for that sale to make the purchase.
Ole made his choice. I can't hold it against him too much, because hindsight is a wonderful thing. I was happy with the signing because I felt Maguire would be a noticeable upgrade when in fact, he hasn't been.
However, Ole made his choice and now has to live/die by it. Whether there should have been a choice in the first place is a different story.
I will explain and see if you can counter:
1. None of the players have been coached, no improvements the coaches cant get players to even play at 80% of their ability.
It's actually very impressive the narratives that are completely imagined to get digs in at Ole.
On top of that, Rashy is 6th in assists this season with 4.
Super not coached.
That really doesn't mean much. You have to compare the positive posts versus the negative posts when the transfer was in negotiations. I'm guessing the ratio would be something like 80 to 20 for favorable. I could find many posts that were favorable but I don't have the time.I disagree, the CAF pointed out his flaws in excrutiating detial.
There were concerns about his passing range back in February
Some thought he was a donkey
People pointed out at his lack of recovery ability and thought he would be targeted and saw his faffing on the ball as kind of pointless; also concerns about him when the game becomes stretched
There were concerns about his lack of pace, or that him being paired with Lindeloff would be bad
Someone put his tag at 40m which I think is about right
That's just one page from his performance thread I pulled from. If you go through the entire thread you'll see many other posts like them -
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/harry-maguire.425839/post-23652913
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/harry-maguire.425839/page-22#post-23530049
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/harry-maguire.425839/page-22#post-23530061
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/harry-maguire.425839/page-22#post-23530448
When he's discussed in the context of Harry Maguire Leicester Player - Performances, he is assessed fairly by the CAF
When he's discussed in the context of Harry Maguire linked to United - there's no rational discussion there. Those threads are overtaken by muppets and those become an excruciating battle between the 'daddy want' camp and 'why haven't we signed him yet' camp.
No, it's on record that AWB was scouted from some enormous list of potential right backs. Literally hundreds and he was the best choice of the available players, from the point of view of the analytics.You might want to read the article from the athletic, completely states the opposite of this narrative.
Ole actually didn't use our scouting network, he went with close confidants like Giggs (James), Neville who had close contacts with the England Coaches from his stints there (AWB) and finally Phelan had strong contacts within Sheffield Utd.
Our scouting network has been woeful for years, hell even with Fergie here he largely ignored it and relied heavily upon his brothers input on quite a few signings.
You are forgetting our outgoings.Many were saying we will spend 200-300m before the Summer, which was ludicrous. 150m pounds is still a lot of money. I mean, acting surprised that we didn't signed another CM and CF for 50-100m each on top of those 150m pounds? Really?
Did I say there was and I quote "some enormous list of potential right backs"?No, it's on record that AWB was scouted from some enormous list of potential right backs. Literally hundreds and he was the best choice of the available players, from the point of view of the analytics.
The same was no doubt true of Maguire given that we'd been extensively profiling centrebacks for Jose already.
James was a recommendation from Giggs, not something that had anything to do with Ole's initiative.
You're ignoring our inflated wage bill that doubled under Jose and the £100m added back onto the club debt largely thanks to Brexit.You are forgetting our outgoings.
Mitten doesn't have any good sources at United. But I doubt he's even said anything like that about AWB, because he works for UWS and Woodward had a fecking interview with UWS where he explained exactly how the signing of AWB came about, and it had square feck all to do with any against-the-grain Neville recommendation or some bolt of divine inspiration from Ole.Did I say there was and I quote "some enormous list of potential right backs"?
No.
I stated as the athletic did (Andy Mitten, a well respected and close source to the club) confidently that Ole didn't go with the scouting list of potential targets. Instead he went with what his close confidants advised him in James and AWB.
I'm stating the opposite of what you are suggesting.
He went with homegrown, players that were already known to the coaches working with him or coaches he trusted. Coaches like Neville, Phelan and Giggs.
Does Ogden have any good sources at United?Mitten doesn't have any good sources at United. But I doubt he's even said anything like that about AWB, because he works for UWS and Woodward had a fecking interview with UWS where he explained exactly how the signing of AWB came about, and it had square feck all to do with any against-the-grain Neville recommendation or some bolt of divine inspiration from Ole.
From the Ogden article today:
Woodward heralded the Norwegian as helping United with a "cultural reboot," turning the focus onto developing homegrown talent and recruiting emerging players. In September, he told the fanzine "United We Stand" that the club signed Aaron Wan-Bissaka from Crystal Palace following an exhaustive process that began with "804 right-backs in our system based on scouting reports." The scouting department was up and running, with the Wan Bissaka signing an example of how United were using strategy and data to recruit players.
And the same is obviously true of Maguire. We signed Maguire because, of all available centrebacks, he's the one who's been best performing in the Premier League for the last 3 or 4 seasons. Certainly not divine inspiration or because Phelan happened to have known him ages ago at Sheffield.
It's actually very impressive the narratives that are completely imagined to get digs in at Ole.
Really is pathetic isn't it?
No you don't - I specifically indicated that the moment we become interested in a player all rational discussion goes out of the window and people go in muppet mode.That really doesn't mean much. You have to compare the positive posts versus the negative posts when the transfer was in negotiations. I'm guessing the ratio would be something like 80 to 20 for favorable. I could find many posts that were favorable but I don't have the time.
No but he's quoting Woodward directly.Does Ogden have any good sources at United?
Nice one @Regalia
I even included page 2, if that first page wasn't enough. No one else from our team even makes it on to the 2nd page.
Rashford is having a pretty good season, but let's not pretend we're a well-drilled team with goals coming from everywhere. In fact, Rashford epitomizes what we are at the moment; disjointed, usually bereft of a gameplan beyond kick and run fast, primarily reliant on individual brilliance to get us the goals. Unfortunately, Rashford is the only one right now where this 'individual brilliance' is paying off.
So yes, if we are going to rely on a simple goal tally to show whether our team is coached, I have to agree that we are 'super not coached'. There are points in favor of Ole, but 'well-coached team' is not one of them right now. No, beating Spurs doesn't count because it is a one-off, something we have done multiple times, even during Mourinho's reign. Raise our game against the 'big' teams because for some reason, that's the only time our players seem arsed.
Amazing what people will do with data to selectively present it and skew it to support their argument. Almost...pathetic, isn't it?
The scouts are not woeful and you shouldn't talk about things you have very little knowledge about.You might want to read the article from the athletic, completely states the opposite of this narrative.
Ole actually didn't use our scouting network, he went with close confidants like Giggs (James), Neville who had close contacts with the England Coaches from his stints there (AWB) and finally Phelan had strong contacts within Sheffield Utd.
Our scouting network has been woeful for years, hell even with Fergie here he largely ignored it and relied heavily upon his brothers input on quite a few signings.
Nonesense.No shit, cause Ole came in and made it clear he wasn’t gonna be first choice.
As I say, I wanted him upgraded, but to upset him and thus sell him, therefore downgrading us as a team was a shit decision.
Sanchez on the other hand had to go, he’s never fit to start with and showed he no longer guarantees goals or assists. Still, I’d have him fit every day of the week over Andreas or Lingard.
Don’t get me wrong here @Random Task, I’d possibly also have said “yeah Martial should do fine, let Lukaku go”, maybe, I think I’d have ensured I got Manzukic or something over the line too but maybe not. And I was desperate for Fellaini to be fecked off.
Thing is, I was wrong, clearly and thank feck United don’t pay me to make decisions cause quite clearly we’re a much worse side and our transfer business since Ole came in cannot be described as anything other than very poor.
Debt, interest payments and dividends are draining the clubs finances. The club debt is 100% a result of the Glaziers mortgaging the club and not anything to do with Brexit.You're ignoring our inflated wage bill that doubled under Jose and the £100m added back onto the club debt largely thanks to Brexit.
Folks like to ignore the fact that transfers are a legacy issue and not resolved from season to season.
When we sign a player the money needed for the deal is spread out over the duration of the contract. I mean folks bang on about the Glazers taking so much money from the club but the reality is we spent more on Sanchez signing on fee than we did the entire Glazer family last year.
Well thats a shit argument. None of us have any knowledge about football management yet here we all are. May as well just shut down the forum I guess. It's been emotional folks.The scouts are not woeful and you shouldn't talk about things you have very little knowledge about.
