Do we need a different type of striker in our squad?

Pexbo · Jan 17, 2020

Just thinking about our current attacking options and wondering if we need a Plan B striker. Ole shipped Fellaini out pretty sharply and the sentiment was that he didn't want a great lummox to hoof the ball to if we were in trouble but his interest in Haaland* suggests that he thinks we need an alternative option to the silky dynamic forwards we have in Rashford, Martial and Greenwood.

As a disciple of Ferguson and as part of attacking units which always had diversity, he surely knows the value of having a target man capable of leading the line and dominating the area? Sheringham, Van Nistelrooy, Berbatov and Van Persie were all essential players and in their own ways lead the line with a more dynamic partner. I think our loan move of Henrik Larrson showed how much he valued having this sort of player in his squad as it came at a time when Van Nistelrooy had moved on and we had Rooney, Saha and Smith as our attacking options.

I think it's essential that we bring one in if we are to find a way to scrape out those extra points we keep letting slip. Whether it's someone with a bit of guile who can make things fall into place around the area or an actual poacher I'm not sure but we can't just rely on the relatively similar styles and individual brilliance of Rashford, Martial and Greenwood for every fixture.

*Yes I am absolutely aware that Haaland is a very different player to a Fellaini and has a much more dynamic all round game and that Fellaini wasn't a striker for us. Just using them to reference Solskjaer's apparent adversity to having a big target if we're in trouble.

TrustInOle · Jan 17, 2020

Simple answer..... yes. We have to be the least threatening team in terms of chance conversions from crosses, corners ect. Somebody like Raul Jiminez would be perfect as he is quality in the air, fantastic link up play and finds space tremendously well in the box. The amount of times James or Rashford put cracking balls across the face of goal, someone like raul would be devastating.

Lynty · Jan 17, 2020

No.

We need a good Plan A first. Then we can start thinking about other areas.

In the longterm, Yes - diversity is never a bad thing.

JPRouve · Jan 17, 2020

If I was to answer your question literally, I would say no. Which teams have used plan Bs on a regular basis with regular success? Teams are succesful when they master their game and regularly beat them with it, otherwise they change their plan A. If you don't use your plan B often, it's highly unlikely that it will yield anything good.

Pexbo · Jan 17, 2020

Lynty said:
No.

We need a good Plan A first. Then we can start thinking about other areas.

In the longterm, Yes - diversity is never a bad thing.

Thats the thing, I’d say our plan A is actually pretty good as reference by our results against the big teams and when we have clicked into gear and dismantled the weaker sides, I think it’s the Plan B we are really lacking.

Alabaster Codify7 · Jan 17, 2020

Yes, because we literally have no plan B whatsoever. Our entire game, regardless of who we play, consists of hitting long balls from defence for our fast forwards to chase and hope the opposition get caught out. That is it. Nothing else.

People mock the big-man CF nowadays which is fair enough but we need either a target man or a fox-in-the-box poacher type striker to enable us to try something different when our Plan A doesn't work (and lets face it, that has already been the case numerous times this season already).

Sky1981 · Jan 17, 2020

We dont even have a sound plan a

We dont need a different player. We need a backup whose main job is to be a backup to plan a, while adept at plan b.

If we choose a totaly different player than once our main striker gets injured, along with him is our plan a.

Hence why most of our ex manager including pep guardiola sometimes sends a defender up top for plan b. Because that way they can find a back up striker that acts as a like for like backup and still having a plan b.

Pexbo · Jan 17, 2020

Sky1981 said:
We dont even have a sound plan a

We dont need a different player. We need a backup whose main job is to be a backup to plan a, while adept at plan b.

If we choose a totaly different player than once our main striker gets injured, along with him is our plan a.

Hence why most of our ex manager including pep guardiola sometimes sends a defender up top for plan b. Because that way they can find a back up striker that acts as a like for like backup and still having a plan b.

So Fergie was way off in our treble season having Yorke, Cole, Solskjær and Sheringham?

11101 · Jan 17, 2020

Martial should be our Plan B striker. He's good at everything without being great at anything. He's not effective enough out wide, he doesn't score reliably enough to be an outright 9, and he doesn't work hard enough to be a nuisance forward. We need a Firmino type player up there as Plan A. Once that is sorted we can also start to think about a Plan C player like Ole or Hernandez.

meamth · Jan 17, 2020

Sky1981 said:
We dont even have a sound plan a

We dont need a different player. We need a backup whose main job is to be a backup to plan a, while adept at plan b.

If we choose a totaly different player than once our main striker gets injured, along with him is our plan a.

Hence why most of our ex manager including pep guardiola sometimes sends a defender up top for plan b. Because that way they can find a back up striker that acts as a like for like backup and still having a plan b.

I don't think so, we scored 39 goals between our main forwards.

What lacking and very apparent this season is the final third.

We can sign an older striker for back up. We all want Martial to succeed.

Lynty · Jan 17, 2020

Pexbo said:
So Fergie was way off in our treble season having Yorke, Cole, Solskjær and Sheringham?

Did we really alter our game though?

Can't recall us suddenly lumping balls at them as if we put Andy Carroll on.

Bilbo · Jan 17, 2020

Alabaster Codify7 said:
Yes, because we literally have no plan B whatsoever. Our entire game, regardless of who we play, consists of hitting long balls from defence for our fast forwards to chase and hope the opposition get caught out. That is it. Nothing else.

People mock the big-man CF nowadays which is fair enough but we need either a target man or a fox-in-the-box poacher type striker to enable us to try something different when our Plan A doesn't work (and lets face it, that has already been the case numerous times this season already).

Well that's not true at all is it? We are actually ranked 20th in the league for number of long passes. Do you watch our matches?

Judas · Jan 17, 2020

It really wouldn't hurt to have something different up front, another dimension so we've got the ability to mix it up a bit, and make more use of some of the balls that get thrown into our box. We don't have a striker right now who is constantly on the sniff for goals. I still fully believe if we go into next season with just our current striking options we're making a huge mistake.

Pexbo · Jan 17, 2020

Lynty said:
Did we really alter our game though?

Can't recall us suddenly lumping balls at them as if we put Andy Carroll on.

We didn't necessarily alter our tactics any more than we might have done had we kept the same strikers on and I'm not suggesting we should here either. But when we subbed on our strikers they immediately brought a different dynamic that defenders struggled to adjust to. Solskjaer got the ball out of his feet and shot earlier than Cole and was happy to drift wide to find space. Sheringham would drop off and play with his back to goal more than Yorke and played a bit more laterally.

Alabaster Codify7 · Jan 17, 2020

Bilbo said:
Well that's not true at all is it? We are actually ranked 20th in the league for number of long passes. Do you watch our matches?

Well then we create very few chances because we literally do not have any other avenue of attack.

Lynty · Jan 17, 2020

Pexbo said:
We didn't necessarily alter our tactics any more than we might have done had we kept the same strikers on and I'm not suggesting we should here either. But when we subbed on our strikers they immediately brought a different dynamic that defenders struggled to adjust to. Solskjaer got the ball out of his feet and shot earlier than Cole and was happy to drift wide to find space. Sheringham would drop off and play with his back to goal more than Yorke and played a bit more laterally.

Oh ye I agree with that.

We probably do need another striker, but I don't think it has to be for a plan b. Just let them have another crack at plan a if Martial isn't on it.

el3mel · Jan 17, 2020

I don't think anyone will hate having more varied options for different situations rather than being uni-dimensional. Fellini was a very useful option for us whether people liked him or not.

Lynty · Jan 17, 2020

Alabaster Codify7 said:
Well then we create very few chances because we literally do not have any other avenue of attack.

That's not quite true either. We're actually 6th on chances created.

Sky1981 · Jan 17, 2020

Pexbo said:
So Fergie was way off in our treble season having Yorke, Cole, Solskjær and Sheringham?

Not saying you cant have backups. But having a striker that differs alot compared to your main means you need to alter your approach everytime he plays.

E.g. having martial and rashford is fine because they can play similary. Having rashford and lukaku isnt because you need to change your team approach depending on who's playing.

JPRouve · Jan 17, 2020

Pexbo said:
We didn't necessarily alter our tactics any more than we might have done had we kept the same strikers on and I'm not suggesting we should here either. But when we subbed on our strikers they immediately brought a different dynamic that defenders struggled to adjust to. Solskjaer got the ball out of his feet and shot earlier than Cole and was happy to drift wide to find space. Sheringham would drop off and play with his back to goal more than Yorke and played a bit more laterally.

But isn't Martial the player that plays with his back to goal and drops deeper? A player that plays behind the defense would be the alternative not a target man. The way I see it SAF didn't had a plan A, B or C but a Plan A, A', A''. His logic was to have a group of players that could replace each others seamlessly, that could do the same different things and wouldn't judge them individually but as a group of forwards.
In our current situation we shouldn't focus on the striker position but on how we can alter the front 3/4 dynamic. That's why I like the idea of Greenwood settling on the right as an inside forward with someone like Ziyech as wide playmaker, behind them we can either play a flat 3 men midfield or play with a very attacking box to box, maybe even number 10 and two industrious midfielders.

So we basically would have 6 CMs, 4 industrious midfielders and 2 attacking CMs/10, which should allow us to switch between a 433 and different versions of 4231. Upfront we have Rashford and James on the left as speedsters, Martial as a playmaking CF, Greenwood as a poacher from a central or wide position and then we need two players which I think should be an other playmaker and an other pacy goalscorer.

amolbhatia50k · Jan 17, 2020

Of course we do but we have to prioritise. If we can find a top class RW and two quality midfielders, that would be more important IMO. A ruthless, tough, rough, bullish, clever CF would definitely add to the squad but I feel our lack of creativity is a bigger issue.

RedIan · Jan 17, 2020

100% we need a 4th striker, Rashford injury and Martial being injury prone have shown that we cannot just rely on Young greenwood who whilst promising isn’t yet ready to play full Time.

Danny Ings is one potential we should look at,, 14 goals for Southampton - same tally as Rashford... only Vardy has more goals this season.

Green_Red · Jan 17, 2020

Yes. We need someone who will play on defenders shoulders and can play with the game behind them. We dont have a "fox in the box" type of striker that just wants to score goals amd nothing else.

Bilbo · Jan 17, 2020

Alabaster Codify7 said:
Well then we create very few chances because we literally do not have any other avenue of attack.

As has been said, 6th in chances created. You are seeing what you want to see rather than what really is.

We do have an issue with creativity because we want to be a better team, but it is nowhere near the chronic issue that you are trying to describe. Our most creative midfielder has been of no use to us this season and is probably leaving anyway, and we lack a certain type of player in there which is illustrated perfectly when Mata is on the pitch and having a good game. Fernandes looks like he has the right tools to link midfield and attack is a similar way that Mata does.

I do think we need a different type of striker though. Haaland would have been ideal, but there are many others out there that will suffice.

sosolid4u09 · Jan 17, 2020

wouldn't hurt. But there are far more pressing priorities we need to look at first

Rozay · Jan 17, 2020

No.

We need to try another way so often because we aren’t that good at it, and there’s a strong suspicion that our Plan A is counter attack anyway. I mean, who wouldn’t like to solely attack no more than 3 players? It’s not that sustainable though.

bsCallout · Jan 17, 2020

The top two teams in the league don't particularly have a different style of striker to bring in. They bring in a striker than can play in a similar way, in the same formation, with the same tactics.

What we need is an actual creative player, and to keep working on building good partnerships and patterns of play.

I think Ole needs to be brave and play Rashford - Martial - Greenwood in every game, with a creative player behind them, and bring on the likes of James and other reinforcements to add some energy and give the other team something to think about later on in the game. I don't think it is beneficial in the long term to rely on a Plan B, and resort to that consistently, like we did with Fellaini. It is an indication of a bad plan A.

NewGlory · Jan 17, 2020

11101 said:
Martial should be our Plan B striker. He's good at everything without being great at anything. He's not effective enough out wide, he doesn't score reliably enough to be an outright 9, and he doesn't work hard enough to be a nuisance forward. We need a Firmino type player up there as Plan A. Once that is sorted we can also start to think about a Plan C player like Ole or Hernandez.

Martial scored more goals in both PL (8 vs 7) as well as in all competitions (11 vs 9) than Firmino, this season. And he's gained ton of confidence from being trusted as our main striker.

But please tell us how Martial doesn't work as hard as Firmino!

Unbelievable...

Pexbo · Jan 17, 2020

NewGlory said:
Martial scored more goals in both PL (8 vs 7) as well as in all competitions (11 vs 9) than Firmino.

But please tell us how Martial doesn't work as hard as Firmino!

Unbelievable...

Berbatov scored 281 goals in 665 games.

2 man midfield · Jan 17, 2020

Yes we do, I like Martial and Greenwood is promising but they’re pretty similar and both young. I’d like us to be in for Cavani if he’s on a free.

11101 · Jan 17, 2020

NewGlory said:
Martial scored more goals in both PL (8 vs 7) as well as in all competitions (11 vs 9) than Firmino, this season. And he's gained ton of confidence from being trusted as our main striker.

But please tell us how Martial doesn't work as hard as Firmino!

Unbelievable...

Firmino is not in the Liverpool team for the goals he scores. Unbelievable that you don't see that...

NewGlory · Jan 17, 2020

11101 said:
Firmino is not in the Liverpool team for the goals he scores. Unbelievable that you don't see that...

Then don't fecking compare Firmino and Martial. First you say we need Firmino-like instead of Martial and when faced with facts contradicting your shallow assertion, start backtracking

Figure-out what you want and stop attacking our striker for the fun of it

Invictus · Jan 17, 2020

Nope, what we need is a more consistent and polished Plan A, no need for a major Plan B or the acquisition a Plan B player who is a significant departure from Plan A, IMO — teams that typically put a strong emphasis on Plan B aren't very successful or methodical with Plan A to begin with (if they were they wouldn't have to regularly rely on Plan B), plus there's a temptation to tinker around at the first sign of trouble instead of committing to the process and going through the growth-pains. There's this prevalent belief that must have a fox in the box or imposing target man type (related arguments rear their head(s) from time to time) — but with burgeoning wide goal-scoring forwards like Rashford and Greenwood on the left and right flank respectively, you ideally need a pivot who can intelligently/skillfully knit the play together while working hard through the channels, and maybe even sacrifice his output to make them shine (like Benzema with Cristiano and Bale)...that profile of player should be our Plan A and B and C to breed consistency, familiarity and automatism. Once that starting position is consolidated maybe we can look at a backup Plan B. Martial has a lot of qualities to fulfill the role and has done reasonably well of late, but if he's considered unsuitable for some reason, sign someone else and make him the Plan A at 9 instead.

11101 · Jan 17, 2020

NewGlory said:
Then don't fecking compare Firmino and Martial. First you say we need Firmino-like instead of Martial and when faced with facts contradicting your shallow assertion, start backtracking

Figure-out what you want and stop attacking our striker for the fun of it

Jesus...calm down.

Firmino is a nuisance and gets everywhere on the pitch, he doesn't need to score many goals, he is the perfect foil for linking the pace and directness of Mane and Salah. We have the pace and directness of Rashford and James, but Martial doesn't provide the same level of energy and industriousness.

NewGlory · Jan 17, 2020

11101 said:
Jesus...calm down.

Firmino is a nuisance and gets everywhere on the pitch, he doesn't need to score many goals, he is the perfect foil for linking the pace and directness of Mane and Salah. We have the pace and directness of Rashford and James, but Martial doesn't provide the same level of energy and industriousness.

Very calm here. Trust me

Firmino only has 4 assists this season - nothing to write home about, so your new theory also has no legs? Weird

What does being a "nuisance" mean? Running around and blundering in people's feet JLingz style? I thought we already have Lingard for that. You want more Lingards?

Ok, ok - I will back off, assuming you said something without really thinking it through and now I shouldn't beat this into the ground.

All good

joedirt87 · Jan 17, 2020

yeah it wouldn't hurt to have a poacher. I'm not particularly fond of Martial or Rashford's positioning in the box.

11101 · Jan 17, 2020

NewGlory said:
Very calm here. Trust me

Firmino only has 4 assists this season - nothing to write home about, so your new theory also has no legs? Weird

What does being a "nuisance" mean? Running around and blundering in people's feet JLingz style? I thought we already have Lingard for that. You want more Lingards?

Ok, ok - I will back off, assuming you said something without really thinking it through and now I shouldn't beat this into the ground.

All good

Are you really comparing Firmino to Lingard :lol:

OK, maybe best you leave this one alone now. It's clear you can't see what Firmino brings to the Liverpool side that's running away with the league this year.

Kingslayer18 · Jan 17, 2020

JPRouve said:
But isn't Martial the player that plays with his back to goal and drops deeper? A player that plays behind the defense would be the alternative not a target man. The way I see it SAF didn't had a plan A, B or C but a Plan A, A', A''. His logic was to have a group of players that could replace each others seamlessly, that could do the same different things and wouldn't judge them individually but as a group of forwards.
In our current situation we shouldn't focus on the striker position but on how we can alter the front 3/4 dynamic. That's why I like the idea of Greenwood settling on the right as an inside forward with someone like Ziyech as wide playmaker, behind them we can either play a flat 3 men midfield or play with a very attacking box to box, maybe even number 10 and two industrious midfielders.

So we basically would have 6 CMs, 4 industrious midfielders and 2 attacking CMs/10, which should allow us to switch between a 433 and different versions of 4231. Upfront we have Rashford and James on the left as speedsters, Martial as a playmaking CF, Greenwood as a poacher from a central or wide position and then we need two players which I think should be an other playmaker and an other pacy goalscorer.

We should be looking at Edinson Cavani! Perfect in that he can play off the last shoulder of the defence plus his hold up ability is good. He's fast and strong, can be our Plan A or Plan B. He'd do well for 2 years as we bring Greenwood along, then we target a RW (Sancho, Leon Bailey, Ousmane Dembele etc).

spiriticon · Jan 17, 2020

Yes for me. The 'Fellaini-type' Plan B option is always useful to have around to create a bit of havoc in the penalty area and we don't have that at all.

I think it'd be good for a player like Giroud/Fernando Llorente to join as backup striker to ask more tactical questions of the opponents.

Stacks · Jan 17, 2020

11101 said:
Martial should be our Plan B striker. He's good at everything without being great at anything. He's not effective enough out wide, he doesn't score reliably enough to be an outright 9, and he doesn't work hard enough to be a nuisance forward. We need a Firmino type player up there as Plan A. Once that is sorted we can also start to think about a Plan C player like Ole or Hernandez.

Harry Kane would be ideal. Firmino scores no more than Martial

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