He is the guy making their wealth, but maybe they could betray
Is there any way back?
- Thread starter esmufc07
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
They are both great managers, but that's kind of the point. Outside of those two, you would struggle to name another manager you could put in the same bracket. Everyone else is either unproven or hit and miss at best. Plus even with Klopp and Pep, they didn't suddenly crop up overnight as world class managers. They became that by being given the opportunity and platform to do it.
Pep took over a team with literally about 8 of the best 10 players in the world in it, and Messi backing them up. Then left them and joined Bayern at the same time as they literally just bought all the best players in their league...then did the same at City. It's not exactly a dampener on his ability but it is not an opportunity or platform any manager at United at this moment will have. If Pep was looking for a job right now and we were looking for a manager, most likely he just wouldn't come here, because he wouldn't think he could succeed.
Klopp, as much as I hate to say it, I think it's actually pretty pointless using as a bench mark, as I think he's unique and tbh a bit of a miracle worker. I don't think it took any time at all for the improvement to be there when he took over at Liverpool. He's the closest thing there is to a modern day Sir Alex. Even so it DID still take him a few years to get Liverpool to a point where they could challenge for anything significant. Getting to a Europa League final is something Arsenal did last season. Something Ole could actually quite realistically do this season. It's nice but it's not a benchmark for anything. His appointment also coincided with a clear change in strategy from the club. Before Klopp was there they had idiots going round threatening people on twitter for correctly guessing which players they were going to sign...they were literally wasting time and effort doing this. There was clearly a change in strategy above Klopp in order for Klopp to come in.
Well yes, but I don't think giving a manager who inherited a mess more than 12 months to sort it out is exactly trying to create another Ferguson. It's just being realistic. I think you are underestimating just what a state we are currently in.
In fact I don't think we're even at a point where we can worry about who the manager is really, beyond them not being toxic as Jose had become, because currently it is impossible for a manager to succeed here. The wage bill is out of control with players on high wages and little incentive. Last season we had a situation (in large part manifactured by Woodward) where we had literally over a third of our squad running their contracts down or wanting out...and we've lost a majority of these players. We've kept at least one against their will. There is no starting point to build anything or even work out a plan from.
I think it's very difficult to define what "not failing" even is for Ole at the moment, which I think is what causes a lot of the split and disagreement over the job he is doing. I honestly couldn't tell you if I think he's doing a good job or a terrible job or anything inbetween.
Again it's fine to bleat on about record low points totals (I mean, it's not a record low unless you are very selective...we've literally been relegated in the past), but it is dissmissive of the overall mess the club has gotten itself into, prior to Ole arriving and even since, due to things that are neither within his remit or control. Moyes, LVG and Jose have all had to put up with Woodward's fumbling around, fecking them about, and general incompetence, but Moyes inherited a league winning squad. Van Gaal was allowed to sign about 500 players, Mourinho took over a squad of about 500 players then got given Zlatan and Pogba.
Ole has taken over a squad where half of them have had enough and wanted out and the most of the other half aren't actually very good. It doesn;t mean he's doing a good job, but I'm really not sure who would be doing a good job in these circumstances. Saying "if he wasn't a club legend he'd be sacked" is all well and good, but say he was sacked....then he'd be replaced by say, Pochettino (at best), and he'd what, carry on doing the same thing? What else realistically could you expect him or anyone else to do? We are not in nearly the same situation as when Liverpool hired Klopp or City hired Pep.
The problem with us letting players go and not replacing them, is that most of them were already on their way or wanted out before Ole was here, and he DID want to replace them. He very clearly wants midfielders and a creative attacking player. He wanted a striker. It's presumptious and I think a bit dishonest to think that Ole can't see what we can all see in regards to our squad. The two biggest loses for me are Herrera and Lukaku. One of these was already running their contract down when Ole took over and the consensus is he left due to not wanting to take a pay cut. The other, according to himself, wanted to leave after his FIRST GAME for us, about 18 months before Ole was here.
I think Mourinho gave us no choice because he had become destructive, but I wouldn't say Woodward was right...he decided to deliberately not back Mourinho...I mean, ok, if he'd started being a weirdo...but then he didn't sack or replace him either? He waited an entire summer and then half of the next season. Why? I mean is it actually even a surprise that not backing Mourinho and then keeping him here for another 8 months resulted in him causing problems and being destructive? Literally everyone knew and was actually saying what was going to happen, except apparently Woodward.
I don't know what relative success is really. We won a cup and the Europa League, but with a MUCH stronger squad than we have now. Then we finished 2nd but we were miles away from challenging and fortunate to be 2nd really. Pretty much every game we won after Christmas was somewhere between slightly fortunate and freakishly lucky. Jose then, as mentioned, proclaimed this (finishing 2nd by about 25 points), as his "greatest achievement"...is this something he would say if he thought he was being given the backing needed to succeed? I know he likes a moan, but he has never said anything like this when he has failed to win at Madrid, Chelsea, etc.
No, I just think that as long as you have Woodward doing what he does, there's not much point worrying about who the manager is. Jose had to go because he was toxic and the player clearly weren't trying. Neither of these things apply to Ole at this point in time. HE's actually getting an awful lot out of the players if anything. One of them was playing and winning games for him with a broken back!
It is like trying to find the best driver before fixing your broken car...it isn't going to matter. The best driver still wont win you a race and unless they're an idiot wont want to drive your car, plus you have no way of even telling how fast your current driver even is. That's where we're at for me.
I don't buy into the idea that we're 10 years away from being succesful or anything like it. I think it's dramatic nonsense. I do think nothing will change until we change our approach, and that isn't just "oh lets sack the manager again"...we have tried this, multiple times. At this point it'd be the definition of insanity if we do that and nothing else yet again.
The equivalent of Klopp just isn't something that exists. If Klopp was available now I'd want us to get him, even though it would be cruel on Ole. It's just how it is. It'd be an obvious move to make...but Klopp isn't available. It just seems to me a bit like saying to Barcelona "yeah just sign the young equivalent of Messi and it'll be fine"...I mean, in theory yeah, but as an actual plan, that isn't going to work is it?
What do we have available? Pochettino...a guy who won nothing at Spurs and was then sacked for triumphantly marching them into the bottom half of the table. That's the equivalent to Klopp in the same way you can say a toblerone bar is the equivalent to the pyramids. Anyone else is even more of a gamble than he is.
And again, we didn't try to get the equivalent of Klopp, we tried to get Klopp, and he told us to feck off when we pitched our plan to him. So the equivalent to him would therefore do exactly the same. We need to have a clue what we're doing before being able to figure out who would be good at doing it.
Last edited:
Inept board is the main issue and the only bit here I agree with
Bloated squad? 2 years ago that was true, it's now the thinnest squad we have had in literally decades
If Ole gets the backing that Jose and Louis had, then I have no doubt that we will be competitive by the end of next season
But I wouldn't hold my breath on that happening as I do not trust the board to make the right decisions on recruitment anytime soon
Do you realise how boring and tedious this Pochettino crap is to anyone with the mental age over about 8?
It's beyond bizarre. He has never been our manager. He isn't our manager. He is not your friend. Grow up. I don't need to read essay no 5,872 about why Pochettino is better than god himself.
The arguments are also always hypocritical. "Oh but he was at Spurs"...he finished 3rd with them the same season Leicester won the league. They've had good enough players the whole time he was there to compete with the other top six sides.
I'm not saying he is a bad manager but I'm just sick to death of the double standards people apply to him. You don't want to lower expectations for anyone else but then deliberately lower them to argue for Pochettino. Why? Did he hand out bribes on here on some day I didn't log on? Did people actually start listening to the crap Gladston used to come out with?
This is the problem with the backing argument.
You can't really say another manager would do better than Ole if they had the right backing, without conceding that Ole might also be doing better with the same backing.
There is no manager out there who would be in a better category than LVG/Jose, in terms of being a punt, and also more than likely yet another scrap it and start again in terms of squad building.
It's just not worth doing at the moment unless either Ole loses the players or the club has a plan in place that clearly suits someone else.
Liverpool’s net spend has been £106m over the last 5 seasons or so. That ends your argument right there. We need a proper coach who improves players and has a plan. Ole is a legend but he’s an amateur. He’s seriously jeopardised Rashford’s career and he caused the Pogba injury as well.
Hire a bus driver to drive an F1 races. And you wonder why you got left behind.
Instead of hiring the a proper F1 driver (who might not finished 1st but at least race like one) you lot wanted to sack the boss, the team, the brand, and keep the bus driver.
Instead of hiring the a proper F1 driver (who might not finished 1st but at least race like one) you lot wanted to sack the boss, the team, the brand, and keep the bus driver.
Meh. Nobody gave mourinho the benefit of doubt going toe to toe with a record breaking city.
2nd means shit if youre miles behind the 1st.
We're a good 30 pts behind liverpool now.
Saudi Arabian owners is the easiest option. They’re the only ones crazy enough and rich enough to buy us out at the ~$4B asking price.
Alternatively we can organize a mass demonstration/movement that does everything possible to make United the least investible club it can be until the Glazers are ran out, opening up the ownership to more people due to cheaper buying price. This method will be extremely difficult.
I’d prefer the easier option as KSA looks to modernize themselves under new leadership. Spare me the morality arguments. I’m not going to entertain those discussions here.
Alternatively we can organize a mass demonstration/movement that does everything possible to make United the least investible club it can be until the Glazers are ran out, opening up the ownership to more people due to cheaper buying price. This method will be extremely difficult.
I’d prefer the easier option as KSA looks to modernize themselves under new leadership. Spare me the morality arguments. I’m not going to entertain those discussions here.
Nah, once they stopped faffing around they did it in 5.
No, we're cursed. Under Fergie we made a deal with the devil and now we're paying for it. Sacking Ole would be a good start, though.
Agreed. I had previously been completely against Saudi ownership for the morality reasons. But I have changed my mind. My rationalization for that it is I don't want/ united doesn't need their money. I/we need them to get rid of Woodward and Glazers. Only way we get rid of them imo. So we are not using Saudi money, we just need someone to replace these disasters. Only option imo.
I should have changed it but I couldn’t be bothered, I did meant to say bloated with players who just aren’t good enough.
Well, I see Gary Neville got his desired outcome. At this point it does fee lose lose for Woodward.
I actually feel we are turning it around. Losing 2-0 to Liverpool away from home isnt too bad.
but I do agree Rashford injured is fecking huge.
If we held onto this squad. I feel just adding Maddison and even Zaha gives us what we need if pogba can overcome his injury problems.
————————martial——————-
Rashford——Maddison——zaha
————-fred————-pogba————
mctominay garner Gomes greenwood James does seem light hence adding an up and coming midfielder also 21/22 would be good
I actually feel we are turning it around. Losing 2-0 to Liverpool away from home isnt too bad.
but I do agree Rashford injured is fecking huge.
If we held onto this squad. I feel just adding Maddison and even Zaha gives us what we need if pogba can overcome his injury problems.
————————martial——————-
Rashford——Maddison——zaha
————-fred————-pogba————
mctominay garner Gomes greenwood James does seem light hence adding an up and coming midfielder also 21/22 would be good
Of course there is a way back. We are still a massive club with a huge international fanbase. However, we need to turn things around as younger football fans that start following international football will not choose United as their team to support which will lead to the chain reaction that there will be less income from all angles and therefore our options will get thinner.
Talking about the Glazers is a bit useless in my opinion. Woody and Ole are the ones that should go as fast as possible. Ole is completely out of his depth and while I understand arguments like "the negatives run much deeper etc." insisting on a manager who is so far behind his peers is just stupid.
I like the idea of giving a manager more time but it should be the right one.
And I don't know how exactly transfer decisions are made between Woody and Ole but we are absolutely awful. Look at our wage bill and then check the names on the team sheet on Sunday. Ok Pogba and Rashford have been injured but still.
I am not sure if it just Ole having no overall plan how to set up a team and therefore just randomly asking for players or if Woody is dictating which players to get and Ole just has to keep smiling.
Just as an example I said in another thread we could have got Haaland, Weigl and Eriksen for not much more than 50 Mio EUR in January. That would be 3 players for positions where we urgently need someone and who could have been important players for the next years. Instead there is talk about loaning someone in and we try our best to mess the Bruno deal up as well.
Shambles.
So as I don't see Woody giving up his job the only solution that I can see is bring in Poch and give him the absolute freedom to build a team according to his vision. With him at the lead we might be able to challenge our rivals again for the signing of top players.
Talking about the Glazers is a bit useless in my opinion. Woody and Ole are the ones that should go as fast as possible. Ole is completely out of his depth and while I understand arguments like "the negatives run much deeper etc." insisting on a manager who is so far behind his peers is just stupid.
I like the idea of giving a manager more time but it should be the right one.
And I don't know how exactly transfer decisions are made between Woody and Ole but we are absolutely awful. Look at our wage bill and then check the names on the team sheet on Sunday. Ok Pogba and Rashford have been injured but still.
I am not sure if it just Ole having no overall plan how to set up a team and therefore just randomly asking for players or if Woody is dictating which players to get and Ole just has to keep smiling.
Just as an example I said in another thread we could have got Haaland, Weigl and Eriksen for not much more than 50 Mio EUR in January. That would be 3 players for positions where we urgently need someone and who could have been important players for the next years. Instead there is talk about loaning someone in and we try our best to mess the Bruno deal up as well.
Shambles.
So as I don't see Woody giving up his job the only solution that I can see is bring in Poch and give him the absolute freedom to build a team according to his vision. With him at the lead we might be able to challenge our rivals again for the signing of top players.
We’re not a million miles away from top 4, which is the cafs new holy grail. We’re a million miles away from being the best team in Europe, which is where we should be.
Potentially as boring and tedious as you constantly trying to downplay the job Poch did at Spurs?
The thing is I barely even speak about Poch (out of interest I checked to see how many times I mentioned his name in 2019 and it was once) I even said it in my post I’m not saying he’s 100% the answer. I was simply replying to what you said about him failing at Spurs. There’s literally no measurement at all where you can say Poch made Spurs worse at anything.
I’m also not sure how you can say I’m lowering standards for Poch. Again I literally say in my post I think we need a manager who can coach a team and give the team a style whilst finishing in the top 4 and that’s something Poch can do, purely hypothetical and for discussion sake. Nowhere have I said he’s god, nowhere have I said he’ll lead us to titles. I’ve not even said Ole should be sacked and replaced by Poch.
There are extreme examples of pro Pochettino posting on here and yeah sometimes they can be tedious but so is constantly trying to run down the job he did at spurs. There is a middle ground which is where I am, maybe you’re not and so you feel the need to go into the tirade you just went on for anyone who even dares to say anything positive about him.
Last edited:
Fair enough - quite a few have gone though. The kind of serious surgery our squad needed doesn't happen in 1 or 2 windows though
Their net spend is not as low as that (but it is lower than ours for sure) but even if it was, it makes absolutely no difference to my point at all.
Lots of players are improving under Ole: Rashford, McTominay, Fred, Greenwood, Williams - there are others but more debateable
And I personally can see a clear plan and feel we are moving in the right direction on the pitch with clear improvement in play compared to earlier in the season. now we need an improvement off the pitch in recruitment with Ole getting some proper backing to keep evolving
Any team that can consistently qualify for the PL top 4 is one step, and perhaps one player, away from being the best team in Europe.
And that is Ole's fault?
I'm sorry but this is nonsense. Chelsea and Spurs have regularly qualified for the last decade and have been nowhere near that.
What? Where did I mention Ole?
We simply cannot rebuild this squad in a summer and winter window, 90% of redcafe need to look up patience in the dictionary.
We need 2/3 summer windows as winter windows are useless most of the time.
We look like signing the correct type of players on more realistic wages which points to a new way of thinking.
A defensive mid, creative mid, right winger and another centre back and we could be transformed. But this could cost between 200/300 million which takes time.
Were not able to sign tier 1 or 2 players at the moment so targets need to be realistic (Dybala never going to happen).
Not sure if we will make top 4 looks unlikely now with Rashford out, but I want to see Ole given a chance to implement his ideas over more than a full season.
We need 2/3 summer windows as winter windows are useless most of the time.
We look like signing the correct type of players on more realistic wages which points to a new way of thinking.
A defensive mid, creative mid, right winger and another centre back and we could be transformed. But this could cost between 200/300 million which takes time.
Were not able to sign tier 1 or 2 players at the moment so targets need to be realistic (Dybala never going to happen).
Not sure if we will make top 4 looks unlikely now with Rashford out, but I want to see Ole given a chance to implement his ideas over more than a full season.
Totally agree - I also don't think things are quite as bad as some make out and, although we are far from where we want to be, things are improving on the pitch.
For me the major problem is off the pitch with failures in recruitment (we desperately need reinforcements in this window to have a chance of Top4) and the general structure of the club (DoF, #SackWoodward etc)