Its not all Woodward's fault…(don't hurt me)
- Thread starter UpWithRivers
- Start date
He is the highest paid Chief Exec in the Premier League and he's presiding over the largest wage bill in the Premier League.
We used to be about winning. Now we're all about rewarding failure.
The manager gets away with a lot of the blame? Have you read the OGS thread? And previous managers before them were sacked.. that is the opposite of getting away with it.
We have a net spend of something like 30 million in the last 4 transfer windows that for a club who are supposedly in the middle of a rebuild is horrendous.
Woodward is the big dog at the club he is the boss so he should take full responsibility for the complete and utter shit show that's been going on and still is to this day
Woodward is the big dog at the club he is the boss so he should take full responsibility for the complete and utter shit show that's been going on and still is to this day
This is what LVG had to say about di maria signing "Di Maria was my choice at AZ, seven years before, I was satisfied, because he was a creative player, but I had other players on the list. Di Maria had a problem with the English football culture and the climate." His failure is on lvg given the talent di maria had, but signing him was clearly Woodward's decision. Di Maria also happened to be his only high profile signing.
For us he was a dream signing as fans, doesn't mean the manager wanted him as well.
The key in the title is All. Yes he is to blame but will sacking him solve our problems or does it go deeper than that. I say it's the ethos of the club. You see it in the inability to get rid of players - Lingard being a prime example but we also stuck by Rooney for too long and a load of others. You see it in our recruitment starting with Moyes but even Mourinho everyone slating him saying he doesnt play the 'United Way'. You see it in the recruitment of Ole and the coaches and the buy British philosophy. You see it in the lack of DOF. (First we always believed we never needed one and it was true we didnt. But its taking so long to change our beliefs and see we need one. Now if we are after one we are not saying we are looking for the best. We are saying we are looking for the best fit.) You see it from all our ex players in every commentary. They cant shift their thinking. It is ingrained in our DNA. Now I would love it if we could continue just like we were under Sir Alex. But we cant. We have to become something else. Something new.
Now I appreciate this is all theory but do people actually believe we sack Woodward and its all roses?
Now I appreciate this is all theory but do people actually believe we sack Woodward and its all roses?
Now We know why Ed always managed to play tricks on us, his relative is a regular poster here. The man has eyes and ears everywhere but not inside his own club.
The OP joined the Caf same year Woody become CEO!! Hmmmmm
He's a decision-maker. Even if SAF or sir Bobby recommend Moyes or LVG or anyone else, Ed is still the one who make decision. Wrong appointment = Woodward's fault.
Same as transfer, the clear lack of planning is his fault. Scout department recommends bad players? Find a better scout. The manager can't coach player? Find a better manager. It's his job to oversee the whole cub.
Same as transfer, the clear lack of planning is his fault. Scout department recommends bad players? Find a better scout. The manager can't coach player? Find a better manager. It's his job to oversee the whole cub.
It actually is his fault. He’s the CEO, not the manager, not the players. When you are running one of the largest clubs in the world, there are no excuses. He should be fired.
2009 – United win the league championship for the 3rd season in a row. They reach back to back Champions League finals. They are the World Champions and have the current Ballon D’or winner and the PFA POTY in their side.
It’s from this point the decline starts.
Signings in the years previous to that Summer is similar to what Liverpool have been doing recently but on an even bigger scale. It’s one hit after hit. This is how such a great team was built:
Berbatov
Anderson
Nani
Hargreaves
Tevez
Carrick
Vidic
Evra
Park
Van Der Sar
Rooney
Smith
C.Ronaldo
Saha
Following on from that Summer, the signings become more hit and miss:
Owen
Valencia
Obertan
Smalling
Chicharito
Bebe
Young
Jones
De Gea
Kagawa
Van Persie
We then find ourselves in 2013 winning the league once more. However, we had lost quality in those 4 years since 2009 and as you can see from the list above, it was not adequately replaced. RVP was the main reason we won the league that year. The squad is fairly aged. We have failed to reach the ¼ finals of the Champions League in 2 seasons and it needs refreshing.
It can therefore be said that a small amount of blame is on Fergie’s hands. The quality of the recruitment had declined between 2009 and 2013, in comparison to between 2003 and 2009.
However, the squad were still champions and needed some refreshing over the Summer. Players like Rooney probably did need moving on in all honesty, yet Moyes kept him and didn’t break up the squad at all probably because he didn’t have the balls and thought he would do well enough with a championship winning team. Wrong. He then coaches the team poorly to a disastrous 7th place finish – he is also to blame.
Nevertheless, he still realised that we needed new players in that Summer of 2013, yet we didn’t get any as Woodward completely failed to do so. He was shambolic in that 2013 window and should have gone there and then. In the following years, a change of manager from a mug like Moyes to some of the most highly rated in history, has still not changed the awful recruitment. Van Gaal and Mouiniho were too defensive and maybe a little past their best to bring United back. They also share some of the blame. However, the recruitment from 2013 to 2020 has been beyond diabolical and there is only 1 man who has been the constant through all of it. His signings look like:
Fellaini
Mata
Di Maria
Shaw
Herrera
Rojo
Blind
Falcao
Martial
Schneiderlin
Depay
Darmian
Bastian
Romero
Pogba
Mkhitaryan
Ibra
Lukaku
Matic
Lindelof
Sanchez
Fred
Dalot
Compared to that top list it is utter dross. So whilst Fergie’s latter hit and miss recruitment meant the squad wasn’t in the best state, and then Moyes’ lack of bottle and crap management meant that squad was even more rotten a year later and we were out the top 4 for the first time, Van Gaal and Jose’s crap football meant we didn’t get anywhere - it is still Woodward who has been in charge of recruitment through all those post-Fergie managers and who is responsible for that horror list above. Yes, Van Gaal and Jose will have targeted some of crap, failed to coach them properly and share a lot of the blame, but how do you then excuse windows such as 2014 where we left it all too late, 2017 where we didn’t buy anywhere near enough, 2018 where we didn’t buy anywhere near enough and 2019 which was absolutely laughably bad? That's on Woodward.
All these managers hold a small stake in the shit-show that Ed Woodward is entirely responsible for. They are all just footnotes as far as I’m concerned. None of them were good managers but the squad Ed has assembled and the inability of him to conclude deals, to buy in the positions our managers want him to and his preference to buy players to sell shirts rather than actual footballing reasoning is 80% of the reason we are in the mess we are in today. I also believe he has brought in players that previous managers didn't even want, pretending he has a clue about football.
Finally, when you consider he is the one who brought in these shite managers, it's 100% on him and he needs to accept that. After 7 years of crap with him and the common denominator at what point does he accept that it might be on him?
It’s from this point the decline starts.
Signings in the years previous to that Summer is similar to what Liverpool have been doing recently but on an even bigger scale. It’s one hit after hit. This is how such a great team was built:
Berbatov
Anderson
Nani
Hargreaves
Tevez
Carrick
Vidic
Evra
Park
Van Der Sar
Rooney
Smith
C.Ronaldo
Saha
Following on from that Summer, the signings become more hit and miss:
Owen
Valencia
Obertan
Smalling
Chicharito
Bebe
Young
Jones
De Gea
Kagawa
Van Persie
We then find ourselves in 2013 winning the league once more. However, we had lost quality in those 4 years since 2009 and as you can see from the list above, it was not adequately replaced. RVP was the main reason we won the league that year. The squad is fairly aged. We have failed to reach the ¼ finals of the Champions League in 2 seasons and it needs refreshing.
It can therefore be said that a small amount of blame is on Fergie’s hands. The quality of the recruitment had declined between 2009 and 2013, in comparison to between 2003 and 2009.
However, the squad were still champions and needed some refreshing over the Summer. Players like Rooney probably did need moving on in all honesty, yet Moyes kept him and didn’t break up the squad at all probably because he didn’t have the balls and thought he would do well enough with a championship winning team. Wrong. He then coaches the team poorly to a disastrous 7th place finish – he is also to blame.
Nevertheless, he still realised that we needed new players in that Summer of 2013, yet we didn’t get any as Woodward completely failed to do so. He was shambolic in that 2013 window and should have gone there and then. In the following years, a change of manager from a mug like Moyes to some of the most highly rated in history, has still not changed the awful recruitment. Van Gaal and Mouiniho were too defensive and maybe a little past their best to bring United back. They also share some of the blame. However, the recruitment from 2013 to 2020 has been beyond diabolical and there is only 1 man who has been the constant through all of it. His signings look like:
Fellaini
Mata
Di Maria
Shaw
Herrera
Rojo
Blind
Falcao
Martial
Schneiderlin
Depay
Darmian
Bastian
Romero
Pogba
Mkhitaryan
Ibra
Lukaku
Matic
Lindelof
Sanchez
Fred
Dalot
Compared to that top list it is utter dross. So whilst Fergie’s latter hit and miss recruitment meant the squad wasn’t in the best state, and then Moyes’ lack of bottle and crap management meant that squad was even more rotten a year later and we were out the top 4 for the first time, Van Gaal and Jose’s crap football meant we didn’t get anywhere - it is still Woodward who has been in charge of recruitment through all those post-Fergie managers and who is responsible for that horror list above. Yes, Van Gaal and Jose will have targeted some of crap, failed to coach them properly and share a lot of the blame, but how do you then excuse windows such as 2014 where we left it all too late, 2017 where we didn’t buy anywhere near enough, 2018 where we didn’t buy anywhere near enough and 2019 which was absolutely laughably bad? That's on Woodward.
All these managers hold a small stake in the shit-show that Ed Woodward is entirely responsible for. They are all just footnotes as far as I’m concerned. None of them were good managers but the squad Ed has assembled and the inability of him to conclude deals, to buy in the positions our managers want him to and his preference to buy players to sell shirts rather than actual footballing reasoning is 80% of the reason we are in the mess we are in today. I also believe he has brought in players that previous managers didn't even want, pretending he has a clue about football.
Finally, when you consider he is the one who brought in these shite managers, it's 100% on him and he needs to accept that. After 7 years of crap with him and the common denominator at what point does he accept that it might be on him?
I seem to remember LVG frothing at the mouth anytime journalists mentioned Di Maria. He definitely wasn't against the signing imo..
His biggest mistake was making a hash of the attempt to hire Klopp. It could be all sunshine now if that had gone well.
Fergie and Gill heading off into the sunset at the same time was a disaster and not Woodwards fault.
Fergie and Gill heading off into the sunset at the same time was a disaster and not Woodwards fault.
Glazer's under spending during fergie's reign post 2005 is also a big contributing factor.
Edit. But their takeover of United was orchestrated by Woodward.
So in a way he is to blame!
Edit. But their takeover of United was orchestrated by Woodward.
So in a way he is to blame!
Between 2009 and 2013 yep. We weren't competing for the top talent.
It’s not all Woodwards fault, but everything that’s gone wrong can be traced back to him bar signing Moyes.
Woodward isn’t a football man, yet we’re basically ran by him.
He’s an obvious and easy target for disgruntled fans, but for once it’s actually for good reason, the guy has no place making the big decisions he does at one of the biggest football clubs on the planet.
Woodward isn’t a football man, yet we’re basically ran by him.
He’s an obvious and easy target for disgruntled fans, but for once it’s actually for good reason, the guy has no place making the big decisions he does at one of the biggest football clubs on the planet.
groan
If managers are constantly buying bad players, maybe he should get a DOF in place to sort that out? No? Every single thing can be traced back to his decisions, getout!!
Op got balls of steels posting that here. Give him that
it was far worse under, "no value in the transfer market" ferguson and gills bs that has us where we are, from the moment they sold CR7, wouldnt sign Tevez, haggled with agents and refused to pay extra a la Hazard, Kun etc and replaced them with the owens and obertans etc
I agree with 3 of the points. I think being so poor with the negociations must be on him though. All our crazy wages too.
The budget is set by the Glaziers though and us spending too little is not on him.
With managers I don't think you can blame him for all of them, but he should have sacked some of them earlier.
The budget is set by the Glaziers though and us spending too little is not on him.
With managers I don't think you can blame him for all of them, but he should have sacked some of them earlier.
In the corporate world of today if a company performs badly then the chief takes the hit. And poor performance is not just revenue and profit, its customer satisfaction, outlook, recruitment, etc etc. Therefore he must take the blame for the latter.
No, managers have not got away with any blame. 3 managers have been sacked and 4th have been called out all kind of names and is getting blamed for everything under the sky related to United. In fact it is Woodward who has gotten away from much criticisms. It has been 7 freaking years since he was appointed and we have gone downwards. The fact that he refuses to appoint a footballing director or step away from taking footballing decisions (along with Judge) is mind boggling. The truth is the guy loves having power and does not want it to be taken away. The moment we sign someone the guy has a smug look on his face as if he has done a superb job. He has been doing a below par job and is an arrogant tool who needs to have a reality check that he has done a shit job.
He's not solely responsible, but if we include the board in it (because they also make the footballing decisions), he should take the majority of the fault.
I wouldn't pin him down as a sole representative of the footballing side - the board should be in the same pot too.
So if we summarize it:
1. The board / Ed are the ones that are in charge of appointing managers. Moyes was also their mistake, Fergie advise or not, they should've overruled that. LvG was also a mistake - way past his best. Mourinho was signed 2-3 years late - again they could've done better. Ole was laughable appointment so no comment there really.
2. Recruitment process is again on them - scouting network - useless, deciding the global direction of our football - disaster (kept appointing managers that were so far in their style it's untrue). Add to that contract and wage structure and dithering whilst signing players and you get the big picture.
Those are the main issues and problems we had. It's not about money either - we spent a ton.
In essence you shouldn't pin it solely on Ed - the board has as much blame as him. If we are to fix this mess you need structural changes from top to bottom and you don't even need to fire the guy.
1. Remove Ole of his position - he's useless.
2. Hire interim guy and a good coach to improve players, but also not let us fall off the cliff even further.
3. Hire DoF to create footballing vision and direction.
4. Make structural changes in the board - relieve people in key positions that are under performing (scouting, negotiating team).
5. Change/modify wage structure in accordance to the guy in point 3.
6. Relief Ed from all footballing related stuff, including negotiation, identifying targets and so on. Leave him managing the commercial side.
7. Hire new progressive manager and give him resources and time to settle.
8. Allow the manager and DoF to revamp the coaching team.
9. Improve on medical department team, scouting network (after we have a clear idea and profile of players we need to recruit)..
etc..
I wouldn't pin him down as a sole representative of the footballing side - the board should be in the same pot too.
So if we summarize it:
1. The board / Ed are the ones that are in charge of appointing managers. Moyes was also their mistake, Fergie advise or not, they should've overruled that. LvG was also a mistake - way past his best. Mourinho was signed 2-3 years late - again they could've done better. Ole was laughable appointment so no comment there really.
2. Recruitment process is again on them - scouting network - useless, deciding the global direction of our football - disaster (kept appointing managers that were so far in their style it's untrue). Add to that contract and wage structure and dithering whilst signing players and you get the big picture.
Those are the main issues and problems we had. It's not about money either - we spent a ton.
In essence you shouldn't pin it solely on Ed - the board has as much blame as him. If we are to fix this mess you need structural changes from top to bottom and you don't even need to fire the guy.
1. Remove Ole of his position - he's useless.
2. Hire interim guy and a good coach to improve players, but also not let us fall off the cliff even further.
3. Hire DoF to create footballing vision and direction.
4. Make structural changes in the board - relieve people in key positions that are under performing (scouting, negotiating team).
5. Change/modify wage structure in accordance to the guy in point 3.
6. Relief Ed from all footballing related stuff, including negotiation, identifying targets and so on. Leave him managing the commercial side.
7. Hire new progressive manager and give him resources and time to settle.
8. Allow the manager and DoF to revamp the coaching team.
9. Improve on medical department team, scouting network (after we have a clear idea and profile of players we need to recruit)..
etc..
Although he asked for Maguire when he was valued at approx £55-60m and he was told no.
Woodward then went and bought Maguire 12 months later for a much higher price for Ole.
Jose was trying to move away from Jones, Smalling, Blind and Rojo as quickly as possible.
Thats a strange way of backing your manager. We had just finished 2nd in the league and he failed to back the manager.
Duncan Castles who was Jose's mouth piece said club scouting dept wanted Maguire, Jose wasn't fully convinced by the player, he wanted more experienced player.
It's Woodward's fault that United didn't sign anybody the summer Moyes took over and that is the key point. In football you have to buy players when you're on top. This was the last summer United were guaranteed to be in that position and Woodward blew it. It was apparent for anybody to see that the squad which SAF somehow managed to win the title with in his last season was not going to be enough going forward.
So sure, once you're in that downward spiral it's hard to stop it, but took over the job standing on top of the mountain. He was arrogant and stingy with United's resources and learned far too late that investment was needed. But once it went downhill all the money did was an attempt to slow down the downward momentum.
So sure, once you're in that downward spiral it's hard to stop it, but took over the job standing on top of the mountain. He was arrogant and stingy with United's resources and learned far too late that investment was needed. But once it went downhill all the money did was an attempt to slow down the downward momentum.
Before Di Maria was signed, Van Gaal named him in one of his interviews saying he wanted wingers like Di Maria to play 4-3-3. He wanted him and when the signing turned out to be shit, he just pushed everything on Woodward. Same shit by every manager, takes 0 responsibilities.
If we were in Liverpool's position he would be taking all the credit. 
Quite funny that because it's been widely reported back then and ever since, along with Mourinho himself (out of his own mouthpiece) saying live on Sky Sports he wanted Maguire the season before.
It is his fault we haven't hired someone to oversee the football side of the business to make sure the investment wasn't wasted
It is. Because he had control of what kinds of player we bought.
Woodward’s biggest feck up was succumbing to media and fan pressure and giving Ole the job permanently
It’s clear we were going after player chosen the managers.
Ed must be gutted he didn't appoint somebody like Klopp or Pep. Liverpool is a club ran just as questionably as Man United, it's just that they landed an absolute gem of a manager that's corrected their path for the next 10 years.
Had Ed appointed someone of that caliber we'd be top 2 now having challenged every year.
He's very naively and disastrously trusted the wrong people with nearly £1 billion whilst chopping and changing his mind, trusted more people, changed his mind again and now we're adrift from the top English teams.
You look back to Van Gaal, and it looks so blatently obvious now doesn't it. What was he thinking? I remember at the time thinking, oh yeah he was good in the 90's, I trust Man United know what they're doing but when was his last top club job?. It's hardly cutting edge is it? No disrespect but hiring a past-his-peak Van Gaal is something you'd expect a Watford, Everton, Southampton to do when they sack their latest manager.
At that time Man United needed 4-5 good players to keep them challenging for titles and Van Gaal ripped out all the experience, and replaced them all with bang-average players. We're still recovering from that now.
Changing our strategy 4-5 times at the tune of another £200m net spend is just not good enough.
Now, some 5 years on, 700m later and we still need at least 5 players just to be considered 4th best.
Had Ed appointed someone of that caliber we'd be top 2 now having challenged every year.
He's very naively and disastrously trusted the wrong people with nearly £1 billion whilst chopping and changing his mind, trusted more people, changed his mind again and now we're adrift from the top English teams.
You look back to Van Gaal, and it looks so blatently obvious now doesn't it. What was he thinking? I remember at the time thinking, oh yeah he was good in the 90's, I trust Man United know what they're doing but when was his last top club job?. It's hardly cutting edge is it? No disrespect but hiring a past-his-peak Van Gaal is something you'd expect a Watford, Everton, Southampton to do when they sack their latest manager.
At that time Man United needed 4-5 good players to keep them challenging for titles and Van Gaal ripped out all the experience, and replaced them all with bang-average players. We're still recovering from that now.
Changing our strategy 4-5 times at the tune of another £200m net spend is just not good enough.
Now, some 5 years on, 700m later and we still need at least 5 players just to be considered 4th best.
IIRC he said he wanted CB, didn't name Maguire.
Well, when you hear what some of the managers have said it’s pretty clear that a lot of the transfer targets they wanted were not given to them and Ed basically said it’s either this player or nobody. In their position I suspect they probably just gave up and took up what was on offer. Jose said as much regarding Fred recently and Moyes wanted Fabregas but ended up with Fellani (for 5 million extra) .
A telling point is that each and every manager post Fergie has complained about Ed and the way the club is run. Despite what some on here think LVG came across as a pretty decent man...I don’t think he’d be lying to save face. He freely admired Di Maria was one signing he wanted but didn’t adapt well. The rest I’m not sure.
Agree with pretty much most of what you've said apart from this bit, and in this bit I'm assuming you are referring to our traditional style of play. Yes I can see where you're coming from in that we seem quite dogmatic in sticking to our core footballing beliefs, but attempting something new isn't necessarily going to yield better results (see the LvG period), I'd also argue quite the opposite insofar as it would take a massive cultural change from our youth system upwards.
Any kind of change to how we want to play, is likely to take a few years to implement from top to bottom and then you have the issue of deciding how you want to play, if you want to play differently. If you'd asked fans 5 years ago, I'm sure lots would have said that tiki-taka is the future and we should aim for that, that has since been rumbled and is no longer especially effective. If you'd asked fans in the 80's/90's im sure they would have said catenaccio, which also became redundant. Most systems fall out of favour and there is nothing particularly wrong with wanting to play fast aggressive football with wing play and a do-or-die team spirit, it just needs to be tweaked every now and then to ensure it adapts with the times. I'd argue Klopp (ew) has set Pool up in a fairly similar way to early SAF teams.
Managers chosen by Ed.
But remember when Jose wanted Alderweireld from Spurs? Ed said no because he was too old to justify a transfer fee. Ed doesn't usually buy players with bad resale value. Free transfers or young players are preferred. And if the right player isn't available, Ed doesn't buy, even if the squad is weak. And Ed puts in a yes man as manager to take the blame. And Ed doesn't employ a DoF because he doesn't want to be over-ruled on the above.
But Ed is just doing what the Glazers pay him to - maximizing profit. In that sense none of this is his fault.