But he isn’t useless at passing and scoring goals. Which the people who have played instead of him, are.Mata is useless for a press.. we are evolving towards a pressing team.. Hence Mata is not useful there...
Football has evolved.. you gain more by pressing the other team, and reclaiming possession on the other team's half. hence Mct and Fred have played more... Also, whom do we play? Pogba has been injured all season..
That group has barely played together, and there is a fair argument that James offers less attacking threat than his alternative.So Rashford, Martial, James/Greenwood, Bruno, Pogba
That's 5 attack minded players. Does that mean we are a defensive team? This is confusing.
Well he has little justification to be starting regularly in a United attack based on his offensive contribution to be fair. That said, I don’t think Ole is defensive, and all reports suggest he is trying to add the players to be better going forward. He’s already upgraded the #10 position, and will likely upgrade the 7.I didn't know teams signed up speed merchants like Dan James as defensive players.
Would help if our manager had the nous to push our backline up, if that's what he wants his team to do.Mata is useless for a press.. we are evolving towards a pressing team.. Hence Mata is not useful there...
Football has evolved.. you gain more by pressing the other team, and reclaiming possession on the other team's half. hence Mct and Fred have played more... Also, whom do we play? Pogba has been injured all season..
I like Mata but he is not on my starting 11... No pace.. Can't beat a man...... We played him every week when LVG, Mourinho was here .. and we didnt reach anywhere.But he isn’t useless at passing and scoring goals. Which the people who have played instead of him, are.
The point is, we made the choice to prioritise pressing, from our #10 over any offensive usefulness. That’s our right of course, but it is what it is.
THISThe answer is in the very first sentence in this thread. Not looking at the Caf on match days literally changed my outlook on the game and our players, in general. The negativity put me off most football discussions, really.
This is correct. We're actually not that different from Mourinho's team just missing the toxicity and self-sabotage.This is the issue isn't it. People have spent so long moaning about defensive Jose they're unable to now take any accusations of defensiveness without it being an insult. Move on people.
We're a low block countering team it necessitates a high number of people who can do the job in the defensive phase otherwise we'd be stuffed.
I haven't seen any evidence to suggest he's a positive manager though. I know he says all the right things to make the fans dance to his tune, and in his head he probably does think he's the second coming of SAF.I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that Fred and McTominay are in the team for their defensive contributions, to be fair. Beyond that, our #10 has often been selected for similar reasons (pressing ability), as it isn’t hard to argue that Mata is a far greater offensive threat than Lingard and Pereira. James certainly doesn’t play more games than Greenwood due to offensive output either, although it is reasonable to argue he’s playing more because he’s older.
That said, I don’t think we are tactically defensive, but I do feel that a large portion of our team this season are United players for their defensive attributes more than their offensive ones. I’d say the back 5, midfield 3 and right winger are all better going backwards than going forward. But again, I don’t think that’s tactical. Bruno and Pogba were not around for most of the season (although you could question why Pereira and Jess play ahead of Mata), and it appears we are looking at Sancho to replace James, so I don’t think Ole is negative at all. We actually try to play on the front foot, but the individuals are not offensively good enough.
That's kind of my point. I'm not the one who is attributing each player an offensive/defensive label based on a few specific stats. The notion we play 7 defensive players is a stretch to say the least.That doesn't mean Liverpool's midfielders are defensive either. Teams / managers / players have different styles of football. Liverpool attacking full backs is a tactic and they deploy that tactic with Henderson and Fabinho sitting deeper and filling those holes when they attack. That doesn't mean they are defensive players either. It is how the team is set up.
Have 9/11 United players play 36/38 games and I can guarantee you, we will see a better attacking football.
Liverpool players have been fully fit for 2/5 seasons now.
Having a team that can score from headers makes the job of overlapping fullbacks far easier, don't you think? It's also why we had surreal stats in the past like Milner being the assist king of Europe, despite operating in a relatively reserved role. That doesn't mean Milner is incredibly creative.Headed goals are added as goals not as assists while taking free kicks is still part and parcel of an attacking minded player. We don't let AWB give free kicks don't we?
AWB's and Shaw's main asset is in defending not attacking. On top of that we've got 2 midfielders who are better in defending then in attacking. Add James to that and we've got 3 players in a 5 men midfield who are more defensive minded then attacking minded. On top of that we have a defence that is pretty much defensive. In such circumstances then no wonder why we've got the 4th best defence in the EPL. I am actually shocked that we're not better then that.
I think we have played more progressively to an extent, but it cannot be overlooked that we haven’t really had the quality available to us. Pogba and Bruno have been available for about 10 league games. Rashford has missed months, Martial has missed months. We couldn’t just allow ourselves to get blown away every week in that period by trying to take Lingard, Pereira and James to a gun fight.I haven't seen any evidence to suggest he's a positive manager though. I know he says all the right things to make the fans dance to his tune, and in his head he probably does think he's the second coming of SAF.
But from what I've seen, his first instincts are quite defensive. From his selections, the way he set ups his team and his first instinct on where he wanted to spend his first transfer budget.
Let's look at Liverpool's Klopp. Based on your logic, there are also 7 players out of 11 players who are defensive oriented, and those 4 are their full backs & both Salah & Mane. Based on your logic, Firmino is a player who is more a defensive oriented since his primary job is to press defense, drop deep to provide link between midfield & attack. I'm only saying this because that's how you see our full backs, midfield & James due to their ability despite of Ole set some of them in offensive position.We are probably the only top club in the world who tend to play with 2 defensive full backs + to box 2 box players (Fred and McT). That 7 players out of 11 players who are defensive oriented. One might add James as well whose all workrate and pace.
I'm not sure we controlled the game certainly not until the 60ish minute forward but that was a rusty game so not the best to assume anything from.I mean we literally just played Jose and we controlled the game at their stadium, attempting to play on the front foot and dominate possession. I know you were a big fan of Jose when he was here but we clearly play with a different approach now. We may set up quite conservatively against the very best teams, but in general there has been a pretty noticeable shift.
We're also as many goals away from having the 10th best defense in the league as we are from the best.Doesn't need to shut them up.. I was asking why if we are so bad at the back (according to some) is our record 4th best in the league. What's the correlation? Fair question surely..
Yeah I'm confused too. It's as though people don't really know what they want isn't it?
Just look at the player performance threads on our back 5.
So I take is no team in the league has a good defence then? This is confusing. You're finding a negative in us being 4th best so I'm assuming over 3/4 of the division have a poor defence?We're also as many goals away from having the 10th best defense in the league as we are from the best.
What position our team is in terms of goals conceded doesn't really matter when we're averaging basically a goal a game conceded. A good defense doesn't concede that many goals in a league season.
Bit hard to push the team up when it'd simply invite the long ball in behind and our defenders struggling for recovery pace. We need a rapid proactive partner for Harry. Team works very hard to cover our issues in defence at the detriment of our attacking game. Has been that way for quite some time. We honestly have been held back since the days of Rio and Vidic, our last genuine quality central defensive partnership who complimented each other and the teamWould help if our manager had the nous to push our backline up, if that's what he wants his team to do.
So if he really wants to play high pressing football, why would he buy such a slow CB for £80m?Bit hard to push the team up when it'd simply invite the long ball in behind and our defenders struggling for recovery pace. We need a rapid proactive partner for Harry. Team works very hard to cover our issues in defence at the detriment of our attacking game. Has been that way for quite some time. We honestly have been held back since the days of Rio and Vidic, our last genuine quality central defensive partnership who complimented each other and the team
I wouldn't call it "so good", I think "good" is more suitable to describe it.If you listened to much of the Caf, and general football fans, you hear that following about United;
De Gea - Dreadful goalkeeper. Rubbish for 2 years. Must sell.
Shaw - Fat, useless, slow, lazy
Lindelof - Physically weak, mentally weak, not good enough.
Maguire - Waste of money, slow, turns like a tug boat, overrated.
Wan Bissaka - Awful going forward, always out of position, overpriced.
Now taking all of the above onboard I have to wonder how we have the 4th best defensive record in the PL when it comes to goals conceded and the best record we've had in that area for several seasons?
Genuine question.
This is what I have asked myself since the rumours started... And if he really wants to play attacking football, why buy a defensive specialist as a fullback for £50m? Or give a long term mega-contract to a GK that never leaves the line? Or buy a player that can only function when he has acres of space to run in? Seems more to me like he wants to park the bus and counter.So if he really wants to play high pressing football, why would he buy such a slow CB for £80m?
It's quite clear that the overall standards of defenders have dropped as a whole in football as managers love the idea of defenders who can help play the ball from deep. Players who can't play the ball well are being phased out as lousier defenders are picked over them for their perceived better skills on the ball.So I take is no team in the league has a good defence then? This is confusing. You're finding a negative in us being 4th best so I'm assuming over 3/4 of the division have a poor defence?
So United's is still 4th best in comparison to the rest. It's all relative. Not sure of your point.It's quite clear that the overall standards of defenders have dropped as a whole in football as managers love the idea of defenders who can help play the ball from deep. Players who can't play the ball well are being phased out as lousier defenders are picked over them for their perceived better skills on the ball.
So yes, most of the teams in the league have rubbish defense if we're comparing them to teams that actually have a good defense.
You've got it all wrong. Who bought Maguire for a silly amount so we're now stuck with him, being fully aware of his weaknesses? You think he's expecting to play a high defence in the future? Who plays McTominay, Fred & James together knowing they couldn't pass wind, leaving attacking options like Matic, Pogba & Mata on the bench? He's the manager making these decisions, he obviously wants to play defensive football.Bit hard to push the team up when it'd simply invite the long ball in behind and our defenders struggling for recovery pace. We need a rapid proactive partner for Harry. Team works very hard to cover our issues in defence at the detriment of our attacking game. Has been that way for quite some time. We honestly have been held back since the days of Rio and Vidic, our last genuine quality central defensive partnership who complimented each other and the team
Hummels is slow CB, you don't think Dortmund & Bayern press high?So if he really wants to play high pressing football, why would he buy such a slow CB for £80m?
I'm not the one saying you can't play a high-line with a slow defence. We just refuse to do it.Hummels is slow CB, you don't think Dortmund & Bayern press high?
I'm just pointing out, if the problem is our slow CBs - then Ole has only compounded that issue. By spending a WR fee on one of the slowest ones around.Bit hard to push the team up when it'd simply invite the long ball in behind and our defenders struggling for recovery pace.
Does not mean sh*t if one cannot create chances or score without relying on penalties or lucky decisions from the ref.I wouldn't call it "so good", I think "good" is more suitable to describe it.
Not only on the table, if you look at in the internet of (xGA) ''expected goal against'' among the PL team we are ranked 3rd place the best. Only below Liverpool & City. Which tells you that majority teams find it hard time to create good chances against us.
https://understat.com/league/EPL
As a unit, we are definitely good defensively and have improved a lot compare to last season. However, over and over again, we keep conceded goals due to silly mistakes that can be & should be avoided. The Spurs game, you can count 5 players that could & should have done better for the goal, 5 of them came from our defense.
Majority people are just jumping the gun when talking about our defense nowdays. I think it's fair to say that we do need a better player than Lindelof to pair with Maguire. Someone who can compliment Maguire's weakness (being slow) and Lindelof doesn't compliment this and dropping Maguire for Lindelof is a stupid thing. However, the fact that defense isn't our priority right now should also tell people that we're doing not as bad as how people overacted badly about it.
We've had many slow defenders, but usually someone who's fast next to them helps a great deal. Vidic wasn't a speed machine, but Rio was, Bruce was slow as feck, Pallister countered that. It's all about balance. Currently we've 2 players where neither are rapid. We're no better than the Smalling and Blind days under Van Gaal.So if he really wants to play high pressing football, why would he buy such a slow CB for £80m?
Having 1 isn't an issue, having 2 is. Maybe he expected one of the injured players to replace Lindelof? Who knows?I'm just pointing out, if the problem is our slow CBs - then Ole has only compounded that issue. By spending a WR fee on one of the slowest ones around.
It's like scoring 10/100 in a test and coming first place in your class. Yes, you topped the class, but realistically speaking your class are filled with dumb people. Is that really an achievement?So United's is still 4th best in comparison to the rest. It's all relative. Not sure of your point.
Why do we play a deep defence with 2 DM's ahead who struggle to pass & 1 wide player who also cannot dribble/create? What are we actually gaining from having defenders who can 'play the ball from deep', if we are also completely isolating the attack with such a setup? Seems strange to me.It's quite clear that the overall standards of defenders have dropped as a whole in football as managers love the idea of defenders who can help play the ball from deep. Players who can't play the ball well are being phased out as lousier defenders are picked over them for their perceived better skills on the ball.
So yes, most of the teams in the league have rubbish defense if we're comparing them to teams that actually have a good defense.
So if you win the league but it's a rubbish league that's a bad thing?It's like scoring 10/100 in a test and coming first place in your class. Yes, you topped the class, but realistically speaking your class are filled with dumb people. Is that really an achievement?
Because no matter how much Ole wants to deny it, we're a counter attacking team that biggest threat is hitting opponents on the counter with long balls to our pacy attackers.Why do we play a deep defence with 2 DM's ahead who struggle to pass & 1 wide player who also cannot dribble/create? What are we actually gaining from having defenders who can 'play the ball from deep', if we are also completely isolating the attack with such a setup?
You questioned the manager why he bought a slow CB if he wants to play high line. And you decided to change the context now.I'm not the one saying you can't play a high-line with a slow defence. We just refuse to do it.
Actually he was left with Smalling too - one of the quicker CBs in the league. He just decided to send him out on loan.You questioned the manager why he bought a slow CB if he wants to play high line. And you decided to change the context now.
The poster pretty much made a point about us having difficulty to push the team up when you don't have someone to recover the pace, it should tell you that both Lindelof & Maguire don't compliment to each other to allow us to keep push high up. The manager has to work with whatever he was left with and he was left with Bailly & Lindelof. I'm not sure what you are moaning about here.
I give up. Stay deluded in thinking we've a good defense despite us conceding a goal each game.So if you win the league but it's a rubbish league that's a bad thing?
Just answer my question. By your logic if you win the league but the rest of the competition is rubbish then it's not an achievement? Amirite?I give up. Stay deluded in thinking we've a good defense despite us conceding a goal each game.
Yes. It's literally the reason why people clown PSG for dominating their league but doing feck all in the Champions league.Just answer my question. By your logic if you win the league but the rest of the competition is rubbish then it's not an achievement? Amirite?
Yeah i've realised that, and i think we're going to stay like that under Ole. I don't buy that we're going to be different in the future. We might be a better version of this, but not a team that controls the possession or plays progressively. I don't know where the fanbase associating Ole with attacking football comes from at all.Because no matter how much Ole wants to deny it, we're a counter attacking team that biggest threat is hitting opponents on the counter with long balls to our pacy attackers.
