Jude Bellingham | Confirmed Borussia Dortmund player

Grande · Jun 23, 2020

M16Red said:
That's two players now we've missed out on to Dortmund, is that because of our image, League positions or football?

it’s fairly simple: Borussia Dortmund is the worlds best reputated springboard in world football at the moment. They have quite a bit of money and are going all in into the niche of Elite Academy. if you are young and aiming at the very top level, you’ll be played, in a very good league, and CL, and they’ll allow you to move on after a few years, and it seemsas though most young players get better there.

I think United’s reputation as a top notch development club is on the rise again, but Dortmund are the best. We don’t have steady CL, there’s a bigger risk to be benched at us because we’re not aiming to be a stepping stone, and there’s a bigger risk that we don’t let you go if you want to go to RM/Barca. Solskjær is looking promising but not yet established as a developer at the highest level, and our previous manager had a rep of murdering young, technical players with a blunt axe.

Judas · Jun 23, 2020

I honestly don't think he'd play as much as we claimed he would and I can understand why when you look who his competition is in our first team, and who we have coming through the ranks that he's gone to Dortmund.

padzilla · Jun 23, 2020

This is going to continue to happen when we languish in fifth place year in, year out. Our lustre is well and truly damaged under Woodward's reign - our average league position under him is fifth which would be an unacceptable disgrace at any other club of comparable stature. We will only be able to outbid more successful outfits, who can guarantee CL year in, year out as well, by offering more money but is that the road we want to go down?

Adam-Utd · Jun 23, 2020

Not that bothered.

Lets revisit this in 5 years when he might get into the team. Seems a crazy amount of money for a boy that might not even break the first team for a few years.

Coops73 · Jun 23, 2020

Don’t know much about the kid, obviously the people in the know value him highly so he must be very talented and they expect a bright future for the kid, I’ve seen a couple of YouTube clips and yeah he looks impressive for a 16 year old but if he doesn’t want to come here then fine.

The whole going to Dortmund because they’ll develop youth players better or they’ll get more “game time” is a bit of a fallacy for me.

Ok it seems Dortmund have developed a policy over recent years of buying young players with a lot of potential then selling them on for a tidy profit and yeah maybe they’ll get more first team opportunities as a result of said policy but United are one of the best known clubs in the world to develop and nurture young talent to become great players and that is not just an economic policy it’s an ethos.

Litch · Jun 23, 2020

This happens all the time and it's nothing new just this one was picked up by the media of the back off the Halland deal. We don't need to be waiting for a 16 year old to come good, we have bigger fish to fry.

Cassidy · Jun 23, 2020

Coops73 said:
Don’t know much about the kid, obviously the people in the know value him highly so he must be very talented and they expect a bright future for the kid, I’ve seen a couple of YouTube clips and yeah he looks impressive for a 16 year old but if he doesn’t want to come here then fine.

The whole going to Dortmund because they’ll develop youth players better or they’ll get more “game time” is a bit of a fallacy for me.

Ok it seems Dortmund have developed a policy over recent years of buying young players with a lot of potential then selling them on for a tidy profit and yeah maybe they’ll get more first team opportunities as a result of said policy but United are one of the best known clubs in the world to develop and nurture young talent to become great players and that is not just an economic policy it’s an ethos.

More than just recent years and they have been very successful with it not just Sancho but Lewandoski, Gotze etc
The other thing is that currently, United don't look like challenging for silverware and may not be in the UCL
Competition for places at United for CM is also very high, with Pogba and Fernandes

.mica · Jun 23, 2020

Coops73 said:
Ok it seems Dortmund have developed a policy over recent years of buying young players with a lot of potential .. but United are one of the best known clubs in the world to develop and nurture young talent to become great players ...

Ähm, just no.

I guess the big deeplaying problem of United the whole last decade is, that it does't know what it is. It is a elite club which just buys galaticos (or players Woodward thinks they are galaticos)? Or it is a club where all the best young players are (self developed, bought and developed futher, what ever)? Or something in between? Nobody knows.

If you ask someone on the streets about United, he probably will say something like "money money money, are buying players here and there", but you will never hear "Ah United, the ones with their famous work on young players, worldwide reputation for scouting and developing players".
Sorry, but its true.

Irrational. · Jun 23, 2020

Don't worry guys, we'll be bidding £120 million for him in a couple of years.

Resch · Jun 23, 2020

Cassidy said:
More than just recent years and they have been very successful with it not just Sancho but Lewandoski, Gotze etc
The other thing is that currently, United don't look like challenging for silverware and may not be in the UCL
Competition for places at United for CM is also very high, with Pogba and Fernandes

Silverware should not be the reason. Dortmund won the DFB-Pokal 16/17 and the deutsche Meisterschaft 11/12. They are waiting longer than United for a big title. CL football, it is much easier to qualify in Germany, should be the reason. And the fact, that Dortmund need to sell their players.

.mica · Jun 23, 2020

Irrational. said:
Don't worry guys, we'll be bidding £120 million for him in a couple of years.

Thats exactly what i was talking about. Woodward can now start to "preparing a bid". Maybe someone should tell him that in all these past years he would be better with preparing the club. Finaly.

groovyalbert · Jun 23, 2020

Can't help but think one reason why young players end up at Dortmund over the likes of us is because agents know that it'll be far easier to move their clients on in a couple of years.

Dortmund have built a model of developing players into exciting future world-beaters, and then letting them move on for a profit. Not totally dissimilar to Ajax.

Whilst we have a great reputation for developing talent, we very rarely in the past 20 years let players for who we think are good for us. Even in recent years, DDG and Pogba haven't been able to manufacture moves away.

For an agent/player entourage how will be wanting to maximize earnings via various big moves/contracts, this is a big red flag.

Plus we have the money to go big for someone like Bellingham down the line. There's a good chance that, even if he likes us as an option, he's happy to consider us a club for his peak/top-earning years rather than now.

Adam-Utd · Jun 23, 2020

.mica said:
Ähm, just no.

I guess the big deeplaying problem of United the whole last decade is, that it does't know what it is. It is a elite club which just buys galaticos (or players Woodward thinks they are galaticos)? Or it is a club where all the best young players are (self developed, bought and developed futher, what ever)? Or something in between? Nobody knows.

If you ask someone on the streets about United, he probably will say something like "money money money, are buying players here and there", but you will never hear "Ah United, the ones with their famous work on young players, worldwide reputation for scouting and developing players".
Sorry, but its true.

And those people in the street are clueless.

We've made more professional footballers in the English leagues than anybody. If you look across most premier league clubs from the top 6 below there is an ex united/academy player. in almost every team.

Even now in Greenwood, Lingard, Rashford, Pereira, Pogba, Williams, Mctominay we have more academy players than Dortmund have :lol:

Let's be honest Dortmund just cherry pick the best young talent, fatten them up and sell them off - it's the only way they stay revelant.

roonster09 · Jun 23, 2020

.mica said:
Ähm, just no.

I guess the big deeplaying problem of United the whole last decade is, that it does't know what it is. It is a elite club which just buys galaticos (or players Woodward thinks they are galaticos)? Or it is a club where all the best young players are (self developed, bought and developed futher, what ever)? Or something in between? Nobody knows.

If you ask someone on the streets about United, he probably will say something like "money money money, are buying players here and there", but you will never hear "Ah United, the ones with their famous work on young players, worldwide reputation for scouting and developing players".
Sorry, but its true.

If you ask some random guys on street, they will say Dortmund are selling club and Bayern's bitch, but is that true? I don't think so. So I wouldn't go with "Word on the street".

Also clubs dont have to be categorized into "Buying Galactico" "developing young players", these aren't the only 2 categories. Yes we are struggling at the moment and in the past 6 years but in the same time we have won more than most clubs. For ManUtd standards we are struggling as we reached the level very few did, winning leagues almost every second year for 26 years.

In regards to what is the club, they are buying good players who should reach their peak, along with few youngsters who have done well and then promoted few young players who have done well in first team. Obviously we have fallen very low and it takes bit of time to recover.

Bilbo · Jun 23, 2020

.mica said:
Ähm, just no.

I guess the big deeplaying problem of United the whole last decade is, that it does't know what it is. It is a elite club which just buys galaticos (or players Woodward thinks they are galaticos)? Or it is a club where all the best young players are (self developed, bought and developed futher, what ever)? Or something in between? Nobody knows.

If you ask someone on the streets about United, he probably will say something like "money money money, are buying players here and there", but you will never hear "Ah United, the ones with their famous work on young players, worldwide reputation for scouting and developing players".
Sorry, but its true.

I dont agree with that last paragraph. Anybody with at least a reasonable knowledge of European football should know that United generally have an outstanding record of promoting youth and creating superstars. 2 of the most globally recognisable players of the last 20 years followed that path.

The man on the street with no interest in football might think United = Money, but we arent trying to sign those people or their children, so it's irrelevant to the conversation.

Drainy · Jun 23, 2020

Grande said:
it’s fairly simple: Borussia Dortmund is the worlds best reputated springboard in world football at the moment. They have quite a bit of money and are going all in into the niche of Elite Academy. if you are young and aiming at the very top level, you’ll be played, in a very good league, and CL, and they’ll allow you to move on after a few years, and it seemsas though most young players get better there.

I think United’s reputation as a top notch development club is on the rise again, but Dortmund are the best. We don’t have steady CL, there’s a bigger risk to be benched at us because we’re not aiming to be a stepping stone, and there’s a bigger risk that we don’t let you go if you want to go to RM/Barca. Solskjær is looking promising but not yet established as a developer at the highest level, and our previous manager had a rep of murdering young, technical players with a blunt axe.

In fairness, we're still a destination club for most players rather than a stepping stone. If a player does well here generally we fight to keep them. There are only a hand full of players who are at a level to go on to do better after being here.

We do give game time to young players but it's a far more competitive league and higher expectations. Plus as you say, Ole is not 100% secure in the job and developing his reputation as well.

I can see why young players might choose Dortmund as a bridge at the moment. Especially given that they are willing to include buy out clauses or agree to let their players go for the right price without too much fuss.

DWelbz19 · Jun 23, 2020

.mica said:
Ähm, just no.

I guess the big deeplaying problem of United the whole last decade is, that it does't know what it is. It is a elite club which just buys galaticos (or players Woodward thinks they are galaticos)? Or it is a club where all the best young players are (self developed, bought and developed futher, what ever)? Or something in between? Nobody knows.

If you ask someone on the streets about United, he probably will say something like "money money money, are buying players here and there", but you will never hear "Ah United, the ones with their famous work on young players, worldwide reputation for scouting and developing players".
Sorry, but its true.

Yeah, that’s entirely true.

kafta · Jun 23, 2020

You dont need to ask people on the street, just look at the minutes played by academy players every year. You can look at our current team with players like Rashford, McT, Williams and Greenwood who are always in our matchday squads. United always have and always will give academy players chances in the first team.

I get why players with hopes like Sancho, Haaland and potentially Bellingham would go to Dortmund though, they have basically become the best stepping stone to both career development and a big move at a reasonable price. Its a great place for a youngster to get minutes at a high level.

Svartzonker · Jun 23, 2020

Word on the streets :lol:

The word on the street is that Dortmund actually have two players in their squad which have actually been brought up through from their own academy. It’s a decent amount.

But cudos to their scouting department, bringing in good young players and selling them a few years later. I guess it’s a good way to operate, if the purpose of the whole club is to generate money and participate in football.

Most overated club in the world and it ain’t even close. Bayern’s farm team.

.mica · Jun 23, 2020

roonster09 said:
If you ask some random guys on street, they will say Dortmund are selling club and Bayern's bitch, but is that true? I don't think so. So I wouldn't go with "Word on the street".
... Obviously we have fallen very low and it takes bit of time to recover.

I don't want to derail the thread but want to give a short answer:
Selling club is true. Bayerns bitch not anymore, since some years. I also would argue that Dortmund is coming from nothing, and worked their ass up to climb up the ladder. Climbed up the ladder from being bancrupt to being the first contender for the german title after Bayern, being always a good team in the CL, and are by now the most famous name when its coming to have and develop the best young players of the world. This is the state the club is in now. But i think its not to arrogant to say that the board don't want to become that our standard, its a step in our great develoment. And they are working to progress further. And i think its working. A few years ago Bayern would have been able to snap every player from us. These times are long gone. A few years ago nobody would have placed a bet that United got no chance against us in signing worldbeaters like Haaland and so on. I think Dortmund is the best example of a well runed club worldwide. They worked their way through all the obstacles which comes on the way if you are getting success as a club and managed to climb further and further, growing and getting stronger step by step.

Bilbo said:
I dont agree with that last paragraph. Anybody with at least a reasonable knowledge of European football should know that United generally have an outstanding record of promoting youth and creating superstars. 2 of the most globally recognisable players of the last 20 years followed that path.

You talking about Ronaldo? This is a long time ago.
Today, the examples of Sancho (when he first moved), Haaland, Bellingham and so on doesn't prove your point.

You maybe got some young players which are decent. But no one is the next shiny big thing you are always reading about. Respect for some acadamy players in your squad and in the PL. But is there the next golden boy of europe? They are decent, but even in your own club there is a big debate if they are good enough to fullfil the expectations a PL- and CL conteding United would have.
And you are missing the point that you only focus on young players in Dortmunds squad the whole world is excited about, Haaland, Sancho, Reyna, (Pulisic) and so on, but forgeting all the young players coming out, but don't fullfil our expectations, but are playing in decent clubs or leagues elsewhere.

Buchan · Jun 23, 2020

.mica said:
If you ask someone on the streets about United, he probably will say something like "money money money, are buying players here and there", but you will never hear "Ah United, the ones with their famous work on young players, worldwide reputation for scouting and developing players".
Sorry, but its true.

Zehner · Jun 23, 2020

Coops73 said:
Don’t know much about the kid, obviously the people in the know value him highly so he must be very talented and they expect a bright future for the kid, I’ve seen a couple of YouTube clips and yeah he looks impressive for a 16 year old but if he doesn’t want to come here then fine.

The whole going to Dortmund because they’ll develop youth players better or they’ll get more “game time” is a bit of a fallacy for me.

Ok it seems Dortmund have developed a policy over recent years of buying young players with a lot of potential then selling them on for a tidy profit and yeah maybe they’ll get more first team opportunities as a result of said policy but United are one of the best known clubs in the world to develop and nurture young talent to become great players and that is not just an economic policy it’s an ethos.

No offense, I can't talk about other countries, but at least in Germany, that's definitely not the reputation associated with United.

Also, I'm not really sure where that notion is coming from. Has United really developed more young players than other top clubs?

Nickelodeon · Jun 23, 2020

I don't like the situation. First Haaland and now him. And it's not the "not getting the player of this quality" bit which is pinching me, but players choosing Dortmund over us especially at a time where our first 11 is as accessible as it has ever been. Anyhow, it may also be the case that we decided not to go above a certain amount given talents like Garner and Mejbri coming up in our midfield.

roonster09 · Jun 23, 2020

.mica said:
I don't want to derail the thread but want to give a short answer:
Selling club is true. Bayerns bitch not anymore, since some years. I also would argue that Dortmund is coming from nothing, and worked their ass up to climb up the ladder. Climbed up the ladder from being bancrupt to being the first contender for the german title after Bayern, being always a good team in the CL, and are by now the most famous name when its coming to have and develop the best young players of the world. This is the state the club is in now. But i think its not to arrogant to say that the board don't want to become that our standard, its a step in our great develoment. And they are working to progress further. And i think its working. A few years ago Bayern would have been able to snap every player from us. These times are long gone. A few years ago nobody would have placed a bet that United got no chance against us in signing worldbeaters like Haaland and so on. I think Dortmund is the best example of a well runed club worldwide. They worked their way through all the obstacles which comes on the way if you are getting success as a club and managed to climb further and further, growing and getting stronger step by step.

Yeah well done for achieving all that, ManUtd losing young players is not something that happened now, we lost Ramsey to Arsenal when we won CL+PL double, we lost Bale to Spurs when we were winning league titles for fun. There are many more.

But we are talking about "word on the street" isn't it.

TheReligion · Jun 23, 2020

Dortmund are a stepping stone club.

If their fans are happy with that fair play.

ivaldo · Jun 23, 2020

Nickelodeon said:
I don't like the situation. First Haaland and now him. And it's not the "not getting the player of this quality" bit which is pinching me, but players choosing Dortmund over us especially at a time where our first 11 is as accessible as it has ever been.

Haaland chose Dortmund over us because we wouldn't put a buy out clause in his contract. I'd prefer our club not to bend over.

.mica · Jun 23, 2020

roonster09 said:
Yeah well done for achieving all that, ManUtd losing young players is not something that happened now, we lost Ramsey to Arsenal when we won CL+PL double, we lost Bale to Spurs when we were winning league titles for fun. There are many more.

But we are talking about "word on the street" isn't it.

Zehner's words describes it better: "Defnitely not the reputation associated with United."
I hope thats more understandable.

roonster09 · Jun 23, 2020

.mica said:
You maybe got some young players which are decent. But no one is the next shiny big thing you are always reading about. Respect for some acadamy players in your squad and in the PL. But is there the next golden boy of europe? They are decent, but even in your own club there is a big debate if they are good enough to fullfil the expectations a PL- and CL conteding United would have.
And you are missing the point that you only focus on young players in Dortmunds squad the whole world is excited about, Haaland, Sancho, Reyna, (Pulisic) and so on, but forgeting all the young players coming out, but don't fullfil our expectations, but are playing in decent clubs or leagues elsewhere.

That's because United is a big club and the expectations are huge. If we had Dortmund young players, the debate would have been same as none of the Dortmund young players helped Dortmund to win anything.

You have to give bit of context here. Did your European golden boys help you win anything? IIRC Dortmund won 1 domestic cup in last 6-7 years.

This is also one of the reason why Dortmund is perfect club along with clubs like Leipzig for young players. They play good brand of football and gets good playing time in good league but no one cares (at least outsiders) if the club fails to win anything.

TheReligion · Jun 23, 2020

I assume @Zehner and @.mica are both pretty young

Solius · Jun 23, 2020

Bit gutted to miss out as he looks a real talent, especially at his age. Oh well.

Judas · Jun 23, 2020

Yep the club with an academy player in the match day squad for about 500 years isn't famous for youth. Lovely bit of wumming.

.mica · Jun 23, 2020

ivaldo said:
Haaland chose Dortmund over us because we wouldn't put a buy out clause in his contract. I'd prefer our club not to bend over.

You should prefer a worldclass player playing for you club. At least some years. If someone told you ages ago Ronaldo will go to Real at one point, you now wouldn't say you would like to have missed the years with him cause of that, wouldn't you?

Judas said:
Yep the club with an academy player in the match day squad for about 500 years isn't famous for youth. Lovely bit of wumming.

Tell that Haaland, Sancho, Bellingham and so on. I want to argue here a little bit. Whats wumming about that? Take a look at what is happening in reality: Haaland, Bellingham now, choose us over United. Guessing why is up on you. If you don't take into account that its got something to do how these clubs are threating and develop young players, then fine, go on, i won't hold you back.

roonster09 · Jun 23, 2020

.mica said:
Zehner's words describes it better: "Defnitely not the reputation associated with United."
I hope thats more understandable.

Yeah but that's completely different point and like I said if we go by word on the street, reputation associated with Dortmund is they are Bayern's bitch and when any player is signed by them twitter people creates a mimes on how the player is ready to sign for Bayern but we all know it's not completely true. So why should be go with "word on the street"?

0le · Jun 23, 2020

In case anyone missed it, this is also being reported by the BBC:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53145397

RUCK4444 · Jun 23, 2020

We aren’t desperate for a player in his position anyway. Let Dortmund be Dortmund and loan him for a year and profit on him moving on.

It’s that right winger I’m more concerned about getting.

Zehner · Jun 23, 2020

TheReligion said:
I assume @Zehner and @.mica are both pretty young

Born 1990, so unfortunately not anymore

ivaldo · Jun 23, 2020

.mica said:
You should prefer a worldclass player playing for you club. At least some years. If someone told you ages ago Ronaldo will go to Real at one point, you now wouldn't say you would like to have missed the years with him cause of that, wouldn't you?

No, I'd prefer world class players playing for my club for many years. You might be content with your club being a revolving door, but not me. Ronaldo didn't have a buy out clause, and he certainly didn't get a percentage of the buyout clause, thereby incentivizing him to move.

.mica · Jun 23, 2020

roonster09 said:
That's because United is a big club and the expectations are huge. If we had Dortmund young players, the debate would have been same as none of the Dortmund young players helped Dortmund to win anything.

You missed my point: Sancho for example is definitely a player for a CL or PL conteder. As is Haaland. You want both. But the other way around there is nothing. I don't see any United player i would pay money for, cause they aren't top notch, there isn't any player which is definitely a player for a CL contender. And just to remember: this is a forum and only my opinion, if its not yours that does't mean its wumming. (Remember the current keep it together thread)

Svartzonker · Jun 23, 2020

There is about 30 Manchester United Academy graduates in the Premier League at the moment and a few more in the Championship. I guess that's a decent amount of players.

TheReligion · Jun 23, 2020

.mica said:
You missed my point: Sancho for example is definitely a player for a CL or PL conteder. As is Haaland. You want both. But the other way around there is nothing. I don't see any United player i would pay money for, cause they aren't top notch, there isn't any player which is definitely a player for a CL contender. And just to remember: this is a forum and only my opinion, if its not yours that does't mean its wumming. (Remember the current keep it together thread)

This has to be a WUM.

So you would not be interested in Rashford, Greenwood, Pogba, Bruno?

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