Thinking the unthinkable : Winning the League next season - It's alright, we're on

adexkola said:

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I dont see why Ole's pedigree always ends up being a matter of debate.

1. Has he not beaten the bigger teams consistently?
2. Has he not come up with a system to beat the lower teams more recently?
3. Has he not overseen a sustained winning run with minimum number of goals conceded?
4. Has he not signed players that we have been a reasonable success?
5. Has he not gotten rid of deadwood?
6. Has he not established an identity for the club and what it stands for?
7. Has he not made press conferences about not throwing players under the bus?

Will we lose games here and there? Absolutely. But there is enough evidence to say that maybe, just maybe, Ole has it in him to win us the title?

Edit: Unless ofcourse you weren't criticizing Ole. In which case, render my post pointless and directed at the other Ole haters..

We're still 2/3 years in my mind, we would need a year to legit challenge and then gain the mental aspect of it all and then once more to really push on and win it.

In my mind right now, we need a RW and CB and then go from there.

nikineil said:

I dont see why Ole's pedigree always ends up being a matter of debate.

1. Has he not beaten the bigger teams consistently?
2. Has he not come up with a system to beat the lower teams more recently?
3. Has he not overseen a sustained winning run with minimum number of goals conceded?
4. Has he not signed players that we have been a reasonable success?
5. Has he not gotten rid of deadwood?
6. Has he not established an identity for the club and what it stands for?
7. Has he not made press conferences about not throwing players under the bus?

Will we lose games here and there? Absolutely. But there is enough evidence to say that maybe, just maybe, Ole has it in him to win us the title?

Edit: Unless ofcourse you weren't criticizing Ole. In which case, render my post pointless and directed at the other Ole haters..

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One answer, sustained results. I say this as an Ole fan. Ignore the needlessly harsh critics, but the rest recognize the positives and good he has done. The question mark remains over whether or not he can be a consistently good manager sustaining good results and not purple patches. He can do it I think but we will have to see.

shamans said:

Was trying to be a little humorous

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Sorry my fault for taking everything too seriously!

Let's learn how to walk before we run.

If we sign Sancho and Grealish this upcoming window, then I think we are close. What else might we need after that?

- A quick and durable centre back. Someone who will complement Maguire/Lindelof better than they do each other.
- A long-term Matic replacement - a top DM. I can see United going after Declan Rice in a years' time if he's available.
- Depending on how Shaw and Williams cut it next season, a left back, ideally one who is great offensively.
- A backup striker to Martial. Ighalo is leaving at the end of next January, so naturally we'll need a replacement.

The ones I didn't highlight are all for next year. With Smalling, Rojo and Jones all probably going, I really hope we sign a centre back this year. If it did happen though, it'd probably be for a similar price to what we paid for Dan James.

Thoughts people??

Naturally I think that we're probably more primed for a title challenge the season after next season. What I mentioned above for next season ought to get us a lot closer though.

I see someone above suggested we need a right back in case of injury. I think that Dalot and Laird is fine as backup for that, at least for next season. As for goalkeeper, well Dean Henderson will probably be back at Man United after next season - sorted!

I don't think we have the squad depth considering we will be in some format of European football next season too.

Matic for me is likely to have a bad spell. No understudy.

If either Pogba or Bruno get injured were fecked. The drop off for between them and players like Pereira, Lingard and Mata is huge.

If we do get Sancho I'm quite happy to see Greenwood as backup RW so no problems there. Rashfords backup will maybe be James? Again, massive drop off in quality.

Our first xi isnt quite there but maybe not a million miles off. Even then though it requires some leap of faith e.g. martial maintaing form over a season (maybe this will be his year?). Will Ighalo stay for the season? And our CB pairing managing to create some semblance of a decent partnership i.e. Maguire not getting turned inside out too often and maybe Bailly staying fit? The squad is some way off though.

Between youth promotion and signings I still think we're about 4 players away (not all starters) from putting together a real title challenge.

I don't see it. I mean, I hope it happens, but I just don't see it. It is good that we are positive at this time, and the recent results have been nice, with our attacking being excellent to watch. At the same time, it is almost sure that even if we finish in top 4, we are going to finish 30+points less than the champions, and in total number of points, it will likely won't be even in our top 3 finishes since Fergie left (in fact, there is a very realistic scenario that we may end up with fewer points than in Moyes season).

It is very unlikely going from this to actually challenge (or winning the title). We need both City and especially Liverpool hugely regressing, while we improve for at least 20 points, maybe even more. It can happen, it is just incredibly unlikely.

I would be happy if the next season is a stepping stone, when we consolidate ourselves as a club that qualifies for UCL (and does well there if we actually qualify for it), get good players to fill the gaps, and reach 80 or so points. And the season after that to be the one when we will be back.

What I am saying essentially is that the next next year is our year.

Thinking the impossible : Sanchez winning the Chinese Super League next season.

RC89 said:

I don't think we have the squad depth considering we will be in some format of European football next season too.

Matic for me is likely to have a bad spell. No understudy.

If either Pogba or Bruno get injured were fecked. The drop off for between them and players like Pereira, Lingard and Mata is huge.

If we do get Sancho I'm quite happy to see Greenwood as backup RW so no problems there. Rashfords backup will maybe be James? Again, massive drop off in quality.

Our first xi isnt quite there but maybe not a million miles off. Even then though it requires some leap of faith e.g. martial maintaing form over a season (maybe this will be his year?). Will Ighalo stay for the season? And our CB pairing managing to create some semblance of a decent partnership i.e. Maguire not getting turned inside out too often and maybe Bailly staying fit? The squad is some way off though.

Between youth promotion and signings I still think we're about 4 players away (not all starters) from putting together a real title challenge.

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Greenwood can play in any attacking position, so he should be the main backup for any of the three positions (maybe Ighalo in special circumstances for No. 9). I think that in every game (except the dead rubbers), our starting front 3 should consist of a trio of Martial, Rashford, Greenwood and Sancho/new signing. If 2 of them are unavailable, I actually think we should go for a diamond with Bruno behind the two strikers. Sadly, the drop on quality between these players and James/Lingard/Mata is too big.

UNITED ACADEMY said:

It's always confuse me why do we need to improve the quality in depth if the focus is to challenge the league rather than trying to improve the starting XI and few option from the bench.

United 06/07 is one of my favourite league title winner, that squad doesn't have enough quality in depth and we won the league because our starting XI are quality. IMO quality in depth is only if we are aiming for double or treble.

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The truth is, that squad had far more quality in depth than we do. Fletcher, Ole, o'shea, brown, Larsson,park and Richardson were all premier league players who could and proved to be able to start for premier league teams.

Lingard Pereira and the current Mata dont belong in the league. James would start for a team at the bottom end of the table. Essentially a stark gap in quality.

For the 06/07 we had weeks without rooney and ronaldo and managed because of the quality in depth. Never underrate it.

This seriously is the heights of optimism. We were barely able to get two wins on the trot earlier this season and are miles behind Liverpool and City. I haven't seen anything from this team that fills me with confidence that we will go on a run that will give us the title.

A more realistic objective should be to cement 3rd place next year comfortably.

I think we are some way off that...though hopefully moving in the right direction.

The levels of consistency we need right now just seem a little far off.

I think there is promise in that Greenwood, Rashford and Martial front line, supported by Pogba (if he stays) and Fernandes.

I think my concern is we don't have those impact players off the bench to support it...bar Ighalo.

Pereira and Lingard are a waste of a squad place. Mata just can't offer us enough any more...there are questions about Dan James ability, though it's his first season...and it's a little unfair to make that judgement just yet.

Though I don't expect him to come on and change the course of a game particularly.

I'm still nervous of that back line. I like what Shaw is doing going forward atm, he's certainly getting himself down the flank into good crossing positions.

He does get caught out occasionally doing it though...AWB and Maguire I like...talk about the fee all you want but they are significant upgrades and AWB in particular is improving all the time.

I think if we find the right partner for Maguire, add a couple of young and hungry creative players and keep hold of Ighalo...we will see that further marked improvement.

You feel, even if Liverpool don't match the consistency of this season...92+ points is going to be the minimum.

I'd like not to have to be scraping top 4 next season.

I think a fully fit Rashford, a motivated Martial and Pogba could prove frightening mind. Just wonder about a plan B and dealing with injuries.

It makes you appreciate the depth we had at various times under Fergie.

Dominos said:

No chance we're only 1 player away.

We lack top class players and depth in attack.

Our right wing has been a massive gaping hole for years, Greenwood has been promising in terms of goals scored but hasn't yet developed the all round game to say the position is solved, and we don't know his best position long term yet.

Our current back ups in case of injuries Lingard and Mata who tend to contribute nothing productive these days.

We need at least a couple of very good attacking players. Potentially a centre back partner for Maguire.

I actually like both our full backs and am baffled by the hatred of Shaw on here, but neither of them are good going forward, adding a full back who is productive in attack would be big boost also.

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Absolutely zero chance we are one player away.

I think we're only one or two good players from being able to challenge, i just wanna see if we can be consistent over the course of a season. The points needed to win a league has been increased, and i wonder if we can keep our level for 38 games.

I think if we manage to get Sancho in, and maybe two rotation players for depth (I'd say a DM and one more), it could be really interesting.

tjb said:

The truth is, that squad had far more quality in depth than we do. Fletcher, Ole, o'shea, brown, Larsson,park and Richardson were all premier league players who could and proved to be able to start for premier league teams.

Lingard Pereira and the current Mata dont belong in the league. James would start for a team at the bottom end of the table. Essentially a stark gap in quality.

For the 06/07 we had weeks without rooney and ronaldo and managed because of the quality in depth. Never underrate it.

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Yeah right. We didn’t have Pogba & Bruno and we still managed to beat City, Spurs, Chelsea, Brighton, Norwich, drew to Liverpool and etc. Is that also Quality in depth as well?

If the 06/07 season are missing Rooney & Ronaldo for long period of time, they won’t even win the league in the first place. Those depth are nowhere near enough to be called quality to cover it up.

You are blinded by names but ignoring what type of players they were in that season. Some of them were ageing players, injured for long season and some of them weren’t at their peak.

Fletcher was the only cover for Carrick & Scholes. And Fletcher at that time wasn’t any better than Fred now.

Park 06/07 = James now.
Richardson = Lingard/Pereira
Larsson only has 3 months loan
Ole was pretty much scoring similar amount of goals as Greenwood.

End of the day the 06/07 backup wasn’t that quality. Until in 07/08 when we started strengthened the quality of our depth squad because we aim for more than just winning the league. Nani, Anderson, Hargreaves & Tevez. That’s what I call quality.

Anything less than 80 points would be disappointing but probably need 90 to mount a challenge, I dont think we will be too far away. Squad is better that people give credit for, it seems the caf has recently decided that Fred and mctominay aren't good enough to be in the squad despite being among of our best players this season .

We will need Martial and Rashford to deliver close to 50 goals between them in order for us to challenge. It's a big ask.

Will say this though. The difference between fighting for 4th and fighting for a title is in the very fine margins. It doesn’t take that much of an improvement to turn most of our draws and some of our losses against mid to lower table teams into wins. You can argue we’ve already improved that much. If we’re as lucky with injuries as Liverpool have been this season I think we could give it a right go.

But that’s a big if. However just want to say that people make too much of a deal about “oh we have to make up 30 points or whatever”. Liverpool went from 75 point to 97 points from 2018 to 2019. It’s a matter of marginal improvement not drastic improvement.

Too much talk about players IMO.

We've had highly rated players for a while now who have flopped or regressed, or left the club. The most important thing to me is a winning playstyle which breeds consistency in our players.

If we still rely on individual brilliance, we won't make it to the pinnacle. It doesn't matter which stars we buy, it's impossible to consistently rely on individual brilliance, and thus we'll always be inconsistent.

UNITED ACADEMY said:

Yeah right. We didn’t have Pogba & Bruno and we still managed to beat City, Spurs, Chelsea, Brighton, Norwich, drew to Liverpool and etc. Is that also Quality in depth as well?

If the 06/07 season are missing Rooney & Ronaldo for long period of time, they won’t even win the league in the first place. Those depth are nowhere near enough to be called quality to cover it up.

You are blinded by names but ignoring what type of players they were in that season. Some of them were ageing players, injured for long season and some of them weren’t at their peak.

Fletcher was the only cover for Carrick & Scholes. And Fletcher at that time wasn’t any better than Fred now.

Park 06/07 = James now.
Richardson = Lingard/Pereira
Larsson only has 3 months loan
Ole was pretty much scoring similar amount of goals as Greenwood.

End of the day the 06/07 backup wasn’t that quality. Until in 07/08 when we started strengthened the quality of our depth squad because we aim for more than just winning the league. Nani, Anderson, Hargreaves & Tevez. That’s what I call quality.

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What type of post is that. So James is as good as Park in what universe. Plus you left out Ole. Richardson was much better than lingard and Pereira. We managed without Pogba and Bruno for most of the season, but look at our lack of goals compared to teams fighting for the title. It's not comparable. City lost Debruyne for much of last season and Sane for this and have barely missed a beat on the goals front. That is what we are competing against. If you can't see the difference, especially in attack, where consistency is key and rest is needed for key players due to the amount of competitions we are competing in, then I don't know what to say. You are right that 07/08 quality was better and imo that is what led to us winning the UCL. 06/07 we ran out of steam due to that lack of depth. But my point is, even if we weren't the best depth wise that season, the players we had to fill in were much better than we have atm. Park was a PSV player who was solid and could easily fill in. Ole was still a quality finisher. Fletcher could fill in both at right wing and centre midfield that season, he only shifted fully to the centre in 07-08. O'shea was a quality back up and constantly filled in in midfield as Heinze was Evra's back up that season and Brown was Gary Neville's that season. Richardson was better than Lingard and Pereira and had the quality in pace and dribbling to fill in during less difficult games where the rest of the team's quality shone through.

Not until we work on set pieces.

Liverpool have been optimising things like this for a few years now. It may not look obvious in one game but across the season it's worth a significant number of points.

Football analytics is reaching a level where you need more than good players and good general tactics. Think hyper-optimisation of marginal gains like cycling teams.

AFAIK United are not up to speed on this yet but it looks like we intend to change that.

Revan said:

Sadly, the drop on quality between these players and James/Lingard/Mata is too big.

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I woldn't write off James just yet. Too many wrote of Rashford as well in the same way. James is still very young.

4 goals and 7 assists in his first season is a pretty good return, especially when you think he only just topped that in the Championship last year. He's adapted to the switch from a mid table championship club to one of the most pressured clubs in the country (especially through parts of this season) He's clearly been played more than was initially planned, I think there's alot more to come from him.

Totally with you on Lingard and as for Mata I think he also still has something to offer but it's only going to decline.

Keeping pogba would be important if we want to compete for the title. The pogba - bruno axis would be incredibly important.

While next year would be a tad early for the title but the year after that, with us adding a proper DM to replace matic. Then we should definitely have a squad that is title worthy.

The Boy said:

I woldn't write off James just yet. Too many wrote of Rashford as well in the same way. James is still very young.

4 goals and 7 assists in his first season is a pretty good return, especially when you think he only just topped that in the Championship last year. He's adapted to the switch from a mid table championship club to one of the most pressured clubs in the country (especially through parts of this season) He's clearly been played more than was initially planned, I think there's alot more to come from him.

Totally with you on Lingard and as for Mata I think he also still has something to offer but it's only going to decline.

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Dunno about writing him off, but I just don’t think he is that good regardless of age. He is a speed merchant with a decent shot on him, but not someone who should start often in the league and UCL. Can do a job here and there.

Ali Dia said:

No chance. If we invest well we will comfortably make top 4 though and the group will have another year together which is very important. This does have the makings of a very good team eventually but where I think we will really come into our own next year is in the cups. If we get sancho and another attacking midfielder and we make the CL I would see us as a seriously good value bet. if we are serious and start to fix what needs fixing and we can keep our best players fit then we absolutely can go toe to toe with anyone on our day. What we don’t have is the squad to win the league, outside of our first 11-14 players the drop off is still too big. It’s going to take a few years to build a good enough squad to compete on all fronts again

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That is what I think too. As we saw against norwich, the drop in quality is too much to compete an entire season.
We need to buy players who can compete with the first team and get ride of the deadwood first. 1 or two players will not be enough in my opinion. People need to be patient and enjoy the progress this team made.

Our record against the Top 4 are very good (maybe even excellent). The problems are beating these "smaller" teams. The key on beating them is not by buying a centerback or a DM. It's the attack, as I had a thread before with "Our Weak Attack".

It's proven with addition of Bruno, now we start putting smaller teams down. He's a player at the cusp of greatness, and at the right age to give us consistency. Adding Sancho is a great leap, but still we'll see inconsistency on attack with all those young players. If we're planning to challenge next season, it's imperative to get another attacker with similar profile to Bruno and Maguire. They are at a good age to expect consistency, and at the cusp of their career peak.

Other option is to get a ready to go attacker (to be first teamer), that can give a good at least 2 year of service. He fills in the gap for Rashford, Martial, and Greenwood (and Sancho, if we get him) to mature and be more consistent.

Has there been ANY team on big League in the last 30 years that win League title with all main attackers younger than 25 y.o.?

Eire Red United said:

We are up there if we keep playing the way we have since Bruno arrived. Thats unfair to say as well, take out Aguero/De Bruyne or Mane/Trent or Van Dijk and they would struggle too, naturally enough.

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De Bruyne was missing for a huge chunk of City's title win last season. Maybe Liverpool have less depth than City but they've also missed Allison at points this season.

Depends how we finish this season, if we shit the bed for top four (again) then that will just confirm that these players are not up to the challenge mentally, which is what you need to fight for the league.

So if we get top four (3rd would be a better tell) then yes, we could probably push City/Pool with the right improvements.

If we only get 5th/6th? Then absolutely not - the club and the players will be too used to mediocrity, just like Arsenal.

Anyone who thinks we can challenge for the league next season needs to take a blinders-off look at the teams above us. Maybe in some seasons past we would be in with a shout, but the top two are among the best teams we've ever season in the PL era. If we keep developing and improving, I fancy us for a potential title challenge in two-three years when those two drop off.

This season feels a bit like 2005/2006 where you could see what was coming as we started to play the best team rather than the best players and the Ronaldo/Rooney dynamic was coming together, the following season we won the league.

We’ve got lots of reasons to be excited as the Rashford/Martial and Fernandes/Pogba partnerships are coming together, Greenwood is getting better with every game, Sancho may be coming in, we’ve a settled and solid defence, we’ve got good back up options in a lot of positions and we’ve got a lot of potentially great young players coming through.

Personally I think we need Sancho and a pure out and out defensive midfielder to slowly take over from Matic in this transfer window and I’d like a pacey centre back to partner Maguire if Tuanzebe isn’t ready yet and we can’t trust Bailly’s fitness although a centre back isn’t a priority like Sancho and a defensive midfielder.

You never know we could be extremely lucky with injuries like Liverpool have been as to my knowledge none of their front three or Van Dijk have been injured in a couple of seasons so if we had the same with Maguire, Pogba, Fernandes and our front three then we’re definitely a match in our present form for anyone in the league.

Liverpool will be favourites and City showed last night that they’ll want the title back next season so will improve their squat whilst Chelsea have already added Ziyech and Werner to Pulisic, Hudson-Odoi and Abraham. We’ve made great signings over the past year and I think if we make another two or three of the same then have that bit of luck with injuries we could be in with a shout although I think next season will be a season too early personally.

My first post in a while, so wishing all are keeping well, and managing to remain positive throughout these poignant and definitive times.

In response to the post, sadly, no. Our team are not quite good enough, and our squad weaker.

We need two central defender (Maguire plays, but he needs a top player alongside, and a cover player. What a shame about the demise of Bailly) Shaw is average, nothing else. Mourinho was right about him. Our new RB is still learning. Pogba is the question mark..I still feel that he may leave.

I still have little faith in Martial, he (in my opinion) is not the top, top No 9 we need. No way.

I'm not fully sold on OGS who is learning on the job. And we need a more competitive squad as we are still a little short.

Let's see how this season (which is v v odd and difficult to assess..) ends.

Ollie Derbyshire said:

No way is LB is a priority, Shaw gets so much negativity on here it’s unbelievable

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Next time you see him with the ball in the final third, I guarantee he gives it away

.. And I, personally, would rather see a top, top No 9, and Sancho added to the squad.

Greenwood is magic. Magic. Magic.

We are a Bruno injury away to being a club fighting for top 4.

To challenge for league we need more squad depth.

Grealish is a must.
Sancho would be amazing.
Kouilbay would make it very interesting.

A lot of focus on what we don’t have here, but what about what we do have?

• Spains No1, Argentina’s No1 and potentially England’s number one to chose from in goal
• the best defensive RB in the league
• Bruno and Pogba pulling the midfield strings
• exciting youth coming through across the pitch
• pace and technique in attack

I think we can win the EL and FA cup this season. That will give the boys a taste for victory and push on for next season. A few key additions in the summer will all add to this. I believe we will challenge As early as next season.

Too many players needed to close the gap in one window, especially one where the purse strings are bound to be a little tighter. Our team is still significantly weaker than Liverpool and City. If you look at Liverpool what area of the pitch are we superior? Midfield creativity and that's about it. Their defence and front 3 are an upgrade on ours. We'd need about 4 top players probably to challenge and that's never going to happen in one window when it'd probably cost 300m (and assumes said players are even available in the first place).

shamans said:

This thread annoys me. We should be aiming for the league every damn season. Top four should be nothing but a consolation for not getting into the league.

If a cohesive Leicester can win the league than so can we. I have 100% faith. If we sign a red hot attacker (preferably a right winger) we will compete for the league. Believe!

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Except that Leicester wouldn't be anywhere near winning the league now. They won it on 81 points, a total we could probably conceivably get next season, but it won't be anywhere near enough to win the league.

Ole/Fergie collaboration.

Back on track... owners permitting.

We've seen this over and over again. When we are one or two players away from title challenge, the board is satisfied with a top four finish and refuses to invest. Then we have no choice but to chase inferior targets and the team starts to decline. After a year or two the board is finally willing to invest when we struggle to get into the top four, but it's already too late as many more problems emerge and we become three to four players away from title challenge again. The lack of ambition from the board is evident and I'm frustrated with the club.

13/14 (1) - 75.33m
14/15 (7) - 146.09m
15/16 (4) - 53.93m
16/17 (5) - 137.75m
17/18 (6) - 152.9m
18/19 (2) - 52.15m
19/20 (6) - 142.02m

Easy now, lads.

A) let's sign Sancho
B) DDG and Pog stay (and motivated)
C) sign another CB and LB for competition/depth.

Also,Matic is unpredictable and hasn't much gas left
So, D) sign a DMF

nikineil said:

I dont see why Ole's pedigree always ends up being a matter of debate.

1. Has he not beaten the bigger teams consistently?
2. Has he not come up with a system to beat the lower teams more recently?
3. Has he not overseen a sustained winning run with minimum number of goals conceded?
4. Has he not signed players that we have been a reasonable success?
5. Has he not gotten rid of deadwood?
6. Has he not established an identity for the club and what it stands for?
7. Has he not made press conferences about not throwing players under the bus?

Will we lose games here and there? Absolutely. But there is enough evidence to say that maybe, just maybe, Ole has it in him to win us the title?

Edit: Unless ofcourse you weren't criticizing Ole. In which case, render my post pointless and directed at the other Ole haters..

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I wasn't criticizing Ole!

All I am saying is that as good of a job Ole has done to date, if we are to challenge for the title he will need to be consistent at items 1 and 2 over the course of an entire season. I'm saying that once you get to a certain level of talent (we are close to that), then we will be taken as far as the capabilities of Ole can take us.