Rashford, Aubameyang, Jimenez, Vardy are all comfortably better.
Roberto Firmino, the most overrated player in the Prem.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
This made me chuckle.
He's good at what he does, i.e link up play, movement, etc, but there's plenty of strikers who do that plus score goals. Going forward, Klopp probably needs to think about bringing in a top-class striker to replace him. They have been linked with Mbappe. Whether that happens or not remains to be seen, but I also think Kane would be perfect for Liverpool.
Actually, some of his best seasons when it comes to numbers was when he played alongside Ronaldo.
He gets a few more chances now, but he really was just a bad finisher for a season or so, if i recall.
So, its not just because of Ronaldo leaving, Benzema just found his form back.
As is Martial.
He is a completely different striker than all of them. The role that he plays is far more critical for his team than what any of them does
Salah, Mane, Gabriel Jesus, Vardy, Aubameyang, Rashford, Son
For the record I was just asking the question honestly, not positing that Firmino was the 3rd best striker in the league
Yeah don't buy that rubbish. All of them are hardworking players who contribute off the ball. Firmino isn't some unique never seen before forward because he has good work rate. None of those names would have embarrassing goal returns like Firmino has had this season though despite his team steam rolling the league.
Funny thing is that while United fans are busy bigging up a forward who can't hit double digit goals in the league Liverpool fans are desperate for Klopp to replace him and rightly so. There's a limit of time till he can ride on the backs of Salah and Mané while doing sweet feckall apart from huffing and puffing on the pitch.
I think Martial and Jimenez are the two strikers in the league currently who aren't exactly elite but would work perfectly and better than Firmino in this Liverpool side.
@Buchan is probably right about him suffering more because of how we play now (even if he overstates the hoof ball stuff).
In 17/18 he scored 27 goals with 17 assists in all competitions which is a phenomenal output.
Then in 18/19 Klopp started to focus our creativity through the full backs. Firmino’s numbers dropped to 16 goals and 8 assists. Klopp’s switch to more direct football is probably due to how we struggled earlier on in his time at Liverpool against deep defensive set ups (similar to how Burnley played yesterday). Teams squeeze the pitch and stay deep/compact giving Mane & Salah no room to operate. Having the option to play balls over the top can open up the space for Mane & Salah to run onto. Most full backs aren’t as fast as either of them either but I think we focus that tactic more on our right than we do on the left.
Firmino suffers with this because he doesn’t have the pace to run in behind, so he comes deeper for the ball and also to try and open space by pulling an opponent out with him. He’s become a fourth midfielder now and his numbers have suffered as a result. It’d be interesting to see a heat map of where his shots are from. They’re probably not in statistically ‘good’ places to have a shot on goal, although he’s missed some sitters this season.
I think it’s also about adding an additional body to the midfield to give us a numerical advantage there. For comparison, Guardiola normally plays a front three but instead of Aguero or Jesus dropping, he’ll push someone like Walker into midfield to make up the numbers instead.
Even though his numbers (and sometimes performances) this season don’t necessarily indicate it, we’re a better side with him there than we are when he’s not.
In 17/18 he scored 27 goals with 17 assists in all competitions which is a phenomenal output.
Then in 18/19 Klopp started to focus our creativity through the full backs. Firmino’s numbers dropped to 16 goals and 8 assists. Klopp’s switch to more direct football is probably due to how we struggled earlier on in his time at Liverpool against deep defensive set ups (similar to how Burnley played yesterday). Teams squeeze the pitch and stay deep/compact giving Mane & Salah no room to operate. Having the option to play balls over the top can open up the space for Mane & Salah to run onto. Most full backs aren’t as fast as either of them either but I think we focus that tactic more on our right than we do on the left.
Firmino suffers with this because he doesn’t have the pace to run in behind, so he comes deeper for the ball and also to try and open space by pulling an opponent out with him. He’s become a fourth midfielder now and his numbers have suffered as a result. It’d be interesting to see a heat map of where his shots are from. They’re probably not in statistically ‘good’ places to have a shot on goal, although he’s missed some sitters this season.
I think it’s also about adding an additional body to the midfield to give us a numerical advantage there. For comparison, Guardiola normally plays a front three but instead of Aguero or Jesus dropping, he’ll push someone like Walker into midfield to make up the numbers instead.
Even though his numbers (and sometimes performances) this season don’t necessarily indicate it, we’re a better side with him there than we are when he’s not.
That's because his replacements are the likes of Origi.
But based on the way this thread is going, Firmino is rubbish so it shouldn’t make a difference as long as Salah & Mane are there.That's because his replacements are the likes of Origi.
The most overrated player in the prem is Grealish. Without contest
So if Firmino didn’t miss so many chances, Mané and Salah would score less?
He provides the link-up play for Salah and Mane, that's his function and he's vital to how Liverpool play. Werner would have been an upgrade in that role so happy they didn't get him.
He's only overrated if you think he's world class. And if you think Firmino is world class then maybe football isn't your thing. He's a good player and a brilliant player for that particular system.
He's only overrated if you think he's world class. And if you think Firmino is world class then maybe football isn't your thing. He's a good player and a brilliant player for that particular system.
And Greenwood.
Agreed.
Bobby no goals has to be the best disparaging nickname in football.
It's quite good alright.Bobby no goals has to be the best disparaging nickname in football.
I just love saying it to be honestBobby no goals has to be the best disparaging nickname in football.
He's having a poor (individual) season.
https://understat.com/player/482
You can choose the season in the last graphic. The size and colour of the points/shooting position tell about the outcome and xG of each chance (and detailed info)
Why thank you, one of my bestBobby no goals has to be the best disparaging nickname in football.
That’s not a bad assesment. Werner coming on might not have made us better though. Firmino fits our system very well. Coutinho was considered more talented than Bobby too but we are better without him. Bottom line is we are miles ahead of the pack with him in the team. I love the posters claiming he’s been found out and are “ on to him” as if they know anything even remotely close the CL and PL winning coach. At some point we will need cover and or replacements for the front three not upgrades. You cannot upgrade what is near perfect.
Heh, not really. Poorer than the last two for sure but i wouldn't call it a poor individual season all things considered
He's still been instrumental to their pressing scheme and attack, even though he's been poor in front of goal
Indeed he is, although you wouldn’t guess it by the media consensus. We have better players who are probably considered to be doing worse.
He's neither rubbish nor "irreplaceable or instrumental to everything Liverpool does" while some going to the lengths of saying he's the most important player in the Liverpool team. He's nowhere near the other two attackers in the team and there's a plethora of attackers in football who are good at pressing and link up without being pathetic in front of goal.
He also seems to be important to their build up as none of the CMs are elite passers or creatively up there to do that job. If Klopp were to replace him with someone like say Aubameyang and get a creative midfielder who is hard working but can also link up midfield and attack and create chances (again nothing rare) then there won't be such a pressing need for the forward to drop deep and do that job. The fact that Firmino is creative and can do that is good to have but it's hardly worth to trade goal threat with it and putting pressure on Salah and Mane to score every game.
The Brazilian Heskey they used to call him back in Figueirense.
Because he was absolute shit mate. Would rather play with 10 man.
The link between Heskey and Firmino is also a close one.
Meh, am so annoyed even defending him as a Liverpool striker, so have your fun.
I should hope so.
Firmino was linking beautifully about 18mnths ago, and scoring a few goals.
I think LFC have gotten more conservative and see the FBs as their 1st option now?
And he's good at the tactical fouls, never hesitates.
Some people just play video games and assume that every central attacker has to be the main goal scorer.
Firmino provides fluidity to the front 2 that play around him and the centre midfielders who aren't very creatively capable either. His gameplay allows Mane and Salah to play as forwards who cut in due to Firmino's ability to hold on to vital central striking positions which occupy the centre defence - leaving the wingback acres of space to attack from.
The same people who think Martial was rubbish when he was playing with Daniel James's crosses are now seeing Martial's ability improve due to occupy central positions even if Rashford or currently Greenwood take the main goal scoring ability from places at an angle after they have cut in.
Its Martial's ability to play centrally and drop deep, be supportive and link up play that allows our front 3 to play so narrow, compact - almost to the level where they interchange which each other due to their fluidity, creativity and finishing abilities.
Firmino is more creative but is a good hard working player capable of being clinical whilst Martial is more clinical yet has the ability to creative and functional with his hold up pay and good short 1-2 passing and runs.
Do they really think Lewandowski in the middle of Salah and Mane would work? Not a chance, not at a level enough to win the CL nor the premier league. I don't care if I back a Liverpool player here - but focusing on goals or stats from a central player when your clinical plays are clearly the ones playing around you is just plain stupidity.
Firmino provides fluidity to the front 2 that play around him and the centre midfielders who aren't very creatively capable either. His gameplay allows Mane and Salah to play as forwards who cut in due to Firmino's ability to hold on to vital central striking positions which occupy the centre defence - leaving the wingback acres of space to attack from.
The same people who think Martial was rubbish when he was playing with Daniel James's crosses are now seeing Martial's ability improve due to occupy central positions even if Rashford or currently Greenwood take the main goal scoring ability from places at an angle after they have cut in.
Its Martial's ability to play centrally and drop deep, be supportive and link up play that allows our front 3 to play so narrow, compact - almost to the level where they interchange which each other due to their fluidity, creativity and finishing abilities.
Firmino is more creative but is a good hard working player capable of being clinical whilst Martial is more clinical yet has the ability to creative and functional with his hold up pay and good short 1-2 passing and runs.
Do they really think Lewandowski in the middle of Salah and Mane would work? Not a chance, not at a level enough to win the CL nor the premier league. I don't care if I back a Liverpool player here - but focusing on goals or stats from a central player when your clinical plays are clearly the ones playing around you is just plain stupidity.
Martial has same goal ratio as Firmino but much inferior assist ratio, also Firmino won CL and PL back to back as an important figure while Martial has participated in the most shambolic years of United while not producing anything. But Martial is better... sure
He's got some nice touches and has the work rate needed for a Klopp team but yes, he is extremely overrated. Always has been.
His apologists will tell you how important he is to the team and his stats don't tell the whole story. Correct, stats don't always tell the whole story but they still present an accurate description of how much a player is contributing in certain departments and Firmino's contribution on the goal front is laughably bad. Even bums like Pukki, Jordan Ayew and Maupay have outscored him.
Checked his underlying stats:
Big Chances: 25
Big Chances Scored: 5
His apologists will tell you how important he is to the team and his stats don't tell the whole story. Correct, stats don't always tell the whole story but they still present an accurate description of how much a player is contributing in certain departments and Firmino's contribution on the goal front is laughably bad. Even bums like Pukki, Jordan Ayew and Maupay have outscored him.
Checked his underlying stats:
Big Chances: 25
Big Chances Scored: 5
He's a very good footballer, top talent, but he's not a great striker. There's no way a great striker scores as few goals as he does in a team that scores so many goals. He's also in the top 5 for most shots in the league so please don't give me this unselfish crap. He's just not a great goalscorer, but a very good footballer.
Agree. In the modern front 3 system many coaches now seem to prefer the player who ties the frontline over the more selfish scorer. Why Pep at one point seemed to like Jesus despite Aguero being a vastly better scorer. Not that Liverpool would turn down a world class player that does both but they would also be content to pass up on any such player who worsens the chemistry of that frontline
Unfortunately.. I agree totally. What an effing manager. I mean how on earth can a midfield with no single outstanding player - he literally turns tur* to goldPrime example of how Klopp transforms players to work within his system.
Pains me to say it but what a feckin manager
ok so the season was a one off but what does he feed them exactly? I have never seen such a seemingly talentless bunch transformed within a blink of an eye before - ever!
I mean can we honestly look back on the season and say ‘talent has won!’
please someone enlighten me
Can they do again next season ?
I sincerely hope not and am doubtful . I think they’ll be found out next season .
Are you a Liverpool fan? Your passionate defence of Firmino certainly implies that. Martial is a better goalscorer, though yes, congratulations to the Brazilian for being part of a successful team.