Shall we look at Liverpool's post lockdown form?
I do agree on some of your points to be fair, but to say this team hasn't looked tired in the last 4 games wouldn't be correct.
Tired....again
- Thread starter RedStarUnited
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I do agree on some of your points to be fair, but to say this team hasn't looked tired in the last 4 games wouldn't be correct.
Di Maria's angel
Captain of Moanchester United
Nah, we're just shit. This season has been pretty crap again. Struggling for top 4 when no else really wants shows just how bad we are.
Bubz27
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I'm sure they're not as thick and fast as post lockdown has been. There's been games almost everyday.Matches are thick and fast for majority of the season though, we should be used playing similar schedule. We clearly didn't rotate enough (we didn't rotate at all) so it's clearly on us. I absolutely don't get this "shite squad" point. Our squad is far from shite.
And the squad beyond the first XI is poor. That squad was 14th once, struggled v Norwich when they started. However, Bournemouth at home for example, that was a game when we could've rotated. Maybe we wouldn't have scored 5 but did we need to? Could we have got the 3 points with a little rotation? Probably.
McGrathsipan
Dawn’s less famous husband
Rest and massage. Light work to keep muscles from seizing.What would you do:
?
- Three days of full rest with no training sessions until the match on Sunday, thereby saving energy
- Training sessions as normal (with a focus on drills to beat the press), but potentially draining energy for Sunday
Plenty of tactical lectures
Tell Jlingz he's playing as his last Chance.
Start Ighalo.
Get the defence sorted and some PEDs for Shaw. We need him.
Figure out a way to stop Skinny Vardy.
All we have to do is get a draw agaisnt a poor poor side in an empty stadium.
A 72 hour nap in those regeneration baths from that shit bendy bullets film.What would you do:
?
- Three days of full rest with no training sessions until the match on Sunday, thereby saving energy
- Training sessions as normal (with a focus on drills to beat the press), but potentially draining energy for Sunday
How do other teams manage then?We’ve played near every 3/4 days for the past 3 weeks. The players just don’t have enough time to recover. I remember saf commenting once about this where he said between games he told the players to rest and trust that they would do the right thing (ie not get smashed).
I wonder if we’ll do something similar this time round. The guys look like they have lead in their boots
Glorio
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You could argue that if Ole actually did rotate in the Premier League, this opportunity to have Champions League qualification in our hands might not even exist.
It's easy to say in hindsight that we should have rotated, however, I think 90% of the folks here recognised very quickly that the team quality dropped worryingly once Pogba and/or Bruno got taken off in any game against any kind of opposition
The one mistake I feel was the full side against Chelsea, and even then he did try to rotate a few (probably not the right ones though, but we don't see them everyday in training, he does)
It's easy to say in hindsight that we should have rotated, however, I think 90% of the folks here recognised very quickly that the team quality dropped worryingly once Pogba and/or Bruno got taken off in any game against any kind of opposition
The one mistake I feel was the full side against Chelsea, and even then he did try to rotate a few (probably not the right ones though, but we don't see them everyday in training, he does)
FrankDrebin
Don't call me Shirley
All Leicester have to do is play the game of their lives. They've had the rest. It's their cup final.
If they apply that pressure, we'll crumble.
If they apply that pressure, we'll crumble.
OneUnited24
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Most teams have come back having nothing to play for. It’s telling that the teams that do look tired. Mental fatigue is realHow do other teams manage then?
OneUnited24
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When teams have come out against us we tend to do well. It’s a must win for them which makes all the hallmarks for a good gameAll Leicester have to do is play the game of their lives. They've had the rest. It's their cup final.
If they apply that pressure, we'll crumble.
We looked gassed against Southampton and we've still persisted with many of the same players. It's on the management/coaching.
We got plenty of points with the likes of Fred, McTominay and James pre-lockdown. There's no reason we couldn't have started those every now and then to give Martial, Rashford, Greenwood, Bruno and Pogba a rest here and there. Especially with the teams we've played.
Rest one of Pogba and Bruno each game (you'll still have them on the bench), one of the front three each game and play the strongest XI against e.g. Spurs and Leicester.
We could've done with a rest for Wan-Bissaka here and there too.
We got plenty of points with the likes of Fred, McTominay and James pre-lockdown. There's no reason we couldn't have started those every now and then to give Martial, Rashford, Greenwood, Bruno and Pogba a rest here and there. Especially with the teams we've played.
Rest one of Pogba and Bruno each game (you'll still have them on the bench), one of the front three each game and play the strongest XI against e.g. Spurs and Leicester.
We could've done with a rest for Wan-Bissaka here and there too.
ThinkTank@Cafe
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We have no bench. Not a half decent back up CB, a full back, winger or attacking midfielder. Lingard, Pereira, Jones, TFM won’t make into a Championship team.
Ralph1386
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Play the reserves in the FA Cup and not worry about it. Prioritise.What would you do:
?
- Three days of full rest with no training sessions until the match on Sunday, thereby saving energy
- Training sessions as normal (with a focus on drills to beat the press), but potentially draining energy for Sunday
Champ
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Wish this tiredness rubbish would go away already!!
It's no doubt the players are feeling some fatigue creeping in, but no worse than any other teams,
We've been the fittest team since the restart no question.
It's a pressure thing, the muscles tighten and the brain starts thinking differently, not as instinctively the more the pressure builds. The club needs a culture change back to the Fergie days where the manager would make them believe they were invincible,
It's no doubt the players are feeling some fatigue creeping in, but no worse than any other teams,
We've been the fittest team since the restart no question.
It's a pressure thing, the muscles tighten and the brain starts thinking differently, not as instinctively the more the pressure builds. The club needs a culture change back to the Fergie days where the manager would make them believe they were invincible,
Web of Bissaka
Full Member
1. Excuse.
2. Even if fatigue and tiredness affecting the player.. didn't Ole already know this since last season? He explicitly said it. So he did a bad job in dealing with it then.
Late Season 18/19 - Ole: "Fitness is a problem."
Late Season 19/20 - Still a problem and that's even after the C19 break.
2. Even if fatigue and tiredness affecting the player.. didn't Ole already know this since last season? He explicitly said it. So he did a bad job in dealing with it then.
Late Season 18/19 - Ole: "Fitness is a problem."
Late Season 19/20 - Still a problem and that's even after the C19 break.
Champ
Refuses to acknowledge existence of Ukraine
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Not worry about trying to win a trophy??Play the reserves in the FA Cup and not worry about it. Prioritise.
Strange way of thinking that!?!!
Ralph1386
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Klopp played his B team in the cup this year. LVG got sacked the day after winning the cup.Not worry about trying to win a trophy??
Strange way of thinking that!?!!
We clearly don’t have the squad to compete on all fronts, so we had to pick our battles and prioritise.
SirMattlives
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Anyone here actually know anything about physical conditioning, fitness and performance over time? I am sure United have the specialists to monitor and schedule the players' physical conditioning so presumably with the days between games, the management knows if players are or will be fit enough or not. Maybe there's some cumulative performance deficit that cannot be tested for but again, I presume the science here is pretty established and it's not the case that Ole is just asking the lads 'feeling fresh enough?' when he makes decisions. So, assuming the players are fit enough, maybe it is more mental tiredness that is leading to sloppy passing, slower reactions etc. Either way, I would hope that three days off before Leicester is enough recovery time -- I actually think having the week off, as Leicester has, might not clearly be an advantage for a big game.
And people talk about falling over the line by scraping a draw -- it might be that we do this even by losing if Wolves do a number of Chelsea, which is certainly possible.
And people talk about falling over the line by scraping a draw -- it might be that we do this even by losing if Wolves do a number of Chelsea, which is certainly possible.
Rhyme Animal
Thinks Di Zerbi is better than Pep.
A well rested Fernandes would've made the difference in this match.
The problem is, Solksjaer doesn't trust himself to win without Bruno on the pitch, and so idiotically has played him for every minute since lockdown, and thus run him into the ground...
Ironically, it's by playing Fernandes every minute that has exposed Solksjaer as sub par coach.
The up turn in goals and results was down to the arrival of Bruno - not Solksjaer's management.
I'd sack him and look for a proper manager.
But if Top 4 is secured, I think you can understand the Club giving him another season.
It's a forgiving, easy going culture at Utd, and yes, it lends itself to mediocrity, but that's what fans have asked for with Ole - and thus what they're getting.
The problem is, Solksjaer doesn't trust himself to win without Bruno on the pitch, and so idiotically has played him for every minute since lockdown, and thus run him into the ground...
Ironically, it's by playing Fernandes every minute that has exposed Solksjaer as sub par coach.
The up turn in goals and results was down to the arrival of Bruno - not Solksjaer's management.
I'd sack him and look for a proper manager.
But if Top 4 is secured, I think you can understand the Club giving him another season.
It's a forgiving, easy going culture at Utd, and yes, it lends itself to mediocrity, but that's what fans have asked for with Ole - and thus what they're getting.
Red00012
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Pathetic post palWe’re a midtable team with a good 2 month purple patch in us. The only reason we are 3rd is because the league is criminally bad.
RonaldoVII
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Our quality drops off a cliff past the first XI. Thought we could've had fresh legs on today though just to add some energy in the latter stages.
Champ
Refuses to acknowledge existence of Ukraine
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We do.Klopp played his B team in the cup this year. LVG got sacked the day after winning the cup.
We clearly don’t have the squad to compete on all fronts, so we had to pick our battles and prioritise.
Klopp played a b team to make a statement as he feels he and Liverpool are bigger than the FA/Premier League,
LVG got sacked because Jose was available (that went well)
Are you telling me we don't have the squad to beat lower division/relegation teams in the FA cup then mix it up the further we get? We played Norwich, Tranmere, Derby, you telling me we have to play our first selection for them games??
Answer is, we didn't play a full strength team...for any of them games.
We have played the full strength team since restart because they have been extremely effective, why change things for the sake of it?
FrankDrebin
Don't call me Shirley
Its not exactly good man-management from Ole that he clearly does not trust the majority of our back-up options.
If he expects most of these individuals will leave in upcoming transfer window,well he may be in for a rude awakening.
If he expects most of these individuals will leave in upcoming transfer window,well he may be in for a rude awakening.
Bilbo
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Last 9 games from last seasonThe sense of deja vu from last season is ominous. A great run following by a slump that doesn’t get righted, players tired from overplaying, players getting injured from overplaying, no real trust for the fringe players, hope your best XI does the job against everyone.
Plus this year OGS has his fitness regime in place.
W2, D2, L5 8 points
Last 9 games from this season
W5, D3, L0 18 points (1 match to play)
Hardly the same is it
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We seem to be cursed with unreasonable fans.Last 9 games from last season
W2, D2, L5 8 points
Last 9 games from this season
W5, D3, L0 18 points (1 match to play)
Hardly the same is it
VidaRed
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Does this not apply to the teams we dropped points to recently ? How come they're not tired.Come on, surely you can see that post lockdown the matches have been thick and fast. After a 3 month break without a proper pre-season and a shite squad, you can see that the squad is tired.
We've still had chances to rotate more and not taken them properly.
Tiredness is a shit excuse.
Red00012
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If Today was a game on FM
Bruno fitness would be 82%
Matic 76%
By the end of the game I’m thinking mid 50’s
Bruno fitness would be 82%
Matic 76%
By the end of the game I’m thinking mid 50’s
bondsname
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I think it's a mentality issue. You can be tired, but there is no need to constantly take a minimum of 5 touches before passing it home to your centre backs. We have been taking the safe route lately, when we were scoring 3 goals a game we were always looking forward.
I think the players are scared of making a mistake that will cost top 4 and the pressure gets to them.
I think the players are scared of making a mistake that will cost top 4 and the pressure gets to them.
criticalanalysis
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It's absolutely a fitness and tactics issue.
ANY well coached team will have their players playing within 5-15 yards of each other, popping passes, closing the ball down on first touch and generally moving across both ends of the pitch in a controlled manner.
Under Ole, it's pretty much do the good work of getting player's general fitness up to standard, then come game day give them the speech of 'press them, run at them, be creative and brave, enjoy your game lads'. What hapens is that our players wil run faster and over longer distances as they're eager to 'assert' their dominance. That will work when the whole team is fresh and teams that want to roll over but against any half decent side that has any professional pride, we'd come up short and out of ideas. This accumulation of sprints and pitch coverage has been showing for 3-5 games now.
I mean we're getting overrun, attacked in our half and pressed high by the lights of your Bournmouths, Norwich, Southamptons ffs etc. Yes we won some of those games but it was largely just powerful and individual bits of play.
I'd say it again but the managing of minutes and squad rotation has been frankly non-existent.
ANY well coached team will have their players playing within 5-15 yards of each other, popping passes, closing the ball down on first touch and generally moving across both ends of the pitch in a controlled manner.
Under Ole, it's pretty much do the good work of getting player's general fitness up to standard, then come game day give them the speech of 'press them, run at them, be creative and brave, enjoy your game lads'. What hapens is that our players wil run faster and over longer distances as they're eager to 'assert' their dominance. That will work when the whole team is fresh and teams that want to roll over but against any half decent side that has any professional pride, we'd come up short and out of ideas. This accumulation of sprints and pitch coverage has been showing for 3-5 games now.
I mean we're getting overrun, attacked in our half and pressed high by the lights of your Bournmouths, Norwich, Southamptons ffs etc. Yes we won some of those games but it was largely just powerful and individual bits of play.
I'd say it again but the managing of minutes and squad rotation has been frankly non-existent.
TheGodsInRed
Full Member
A bit of active recovery is really important. Running isn't really active recovery though, needs to be light cycling or swimming.What would you do:
?
- Three days of full rest with no training sessions until the match on Sunday, thereby saving energy
- Training sessions as normal (with a focus on drills to beat the press), but potentially draining energy for Sunday
Rest day tomorrow then ball skills and technical work, keeping the running right down.
RyRy11
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Does this not apply to the teams we dropped points to recently ? How come they're not tired.
Tiredness is a shit excuse.
vs Bournemouth - United extra day rest
vs Villa - United extra day rest
vs Southampton - same amount of rest
vs Palace - Palace extra day rest
vs Chelsea - Chelsea extra two days rest
vs West Ham - WHU extra two days rest
vs Leicester - LCFC extra three days rest
VidaRed
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It all averages out in the end. Its not like we've always gotten fewer days rest in between games.vs Bournemouth - United extra day rest
vs Villa - United extra day rest
vs Southampton - same amount of rest
vs Palace - Palace extra day rest
vs Chelsea - Chelsea extra two days rest
vs West Ham - WHU extra two days rest
vs Leicester - LCFC extra three days rest
Zlatan 7
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The criticism of the team being mentally week may be true but that’s not something to bash them with, I’d say it’s understandable, it’s a fairly new team, we havn’t really accomplished anything to give us that mental strength yet, add on the fact of what happened last year and the natural pressure of just playing for united and the shit storm if they fail, it’s bound to play on their minds. Hopefully we get this too four spot and it’ll start creating some mental toughness and a belief that we can see things through.
I hate comparing to Liverpool but they lost how many finals and were laughed at? It takes time to build a toughness to a team and Liverpool certainly didn’t do it in a year before they eventually won a final and now league
I hate comparing to Liverpool but they lost how many finals and were laughed at? It takes time to build a toughness to a team and Liverpool certainly didn’t do it in a year before they eventually won a final and now league
We played 4 games in 9 days. The last time we had a decent break was after we played Bournemouth on 4th July our players had a 5 days rest then it was a game every 3 days1. Excuse.
2. Even if fatigue and tiredness affecting the player.. didn't Ole already know this since last season? He explicitly said it. So he did a bad job in dealing with it then.
Late Season 18/19 - Ole: "Fitness is a problem."
Late Season 19/20 - Still a problem and that's even after the C19 break.
acnumber9
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We’ve also had by far the easier fixtures. We’ve won 5 out of 8. It’s ok but it’s not exactly a great achievement. We’ve beaten Sheffield United, Brighton, Bournemouth, Aston Villa and Crystal Palace. I’ve enjoyed some of our football at times since the restart but we got carried away. Again.We are knackered. We’ve played the most games post lockdown I would guess along with Chelsea, Arsenal and city: we’ve the best record out the lot. I do think Ole should have rested 3 players each game but can understand why he didn’t, think it’s a lesson learned.
lex talionis
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Fatigue is clearly a problem. To deny this would be madness.
There is one point that deserves more discussion, which is that Ole has played Bruno nearly every minute since the restart and we're seeing deteriorating play as a result. Surely some of the cannon fodder opponents who park the bus we dispatched could have featured more of Mata. Mata's game is well past its peak, but he can still work little spurts of magic against packed defenses. We don't want to rely on Mata, but he's here and when we're up 2-0 or whatever, it's time to give Bruno a break.
There is one point that deserves more discussion, which is that Ole has played Bruno nearly every minute since the restart and we're seeing deteriorating play as a result. Surely some of the cannon fodder opponents who park the bus we dispatched could have featured more of Mata. Mata's game is well past its peak, but he can still work little spurts of magic against packed defenses. We don't want to rely on Mata, but he's here and when we're up 2-0 or whatever, it's time to give Bruno a break.
Zlatan 7
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I’m finding it amazing that people are talking as if this is a normal season with a standard run in, especially when comparing it to previous seasonsWe played 5 games in 9 days. The last time we had a decent break was after we played Bournemouth on 4th July our players had a 5 days rest then it was a game every 3 days
RyRy11
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In the games we’ve played poorly in we have got fewer days rest (bar Southampton)It all averages out in the end. Its not like we've always gotten fewer days rest in between games.
VidaRed
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And i find it amazing that people think we're the only ones who are playing every couple of days while other teams are getting a weeks rest before each game.I’m finding it amazing that people are talking as if this is a normal season with a standard run in, especially when comparing it to previous seasons