The most promising side post SAF | And also some stats

glazed

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United is about to win trophy not just about qualify for CL. If we fail, it's a team's fault not just one guy's fault.
Well if we don't qualify for CL because of exhaustion then it is very much one guy's fault - the doofus who exhausted them when he didn't have to.
 

glazed

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You'd be considered crazy if you came in here and started talking about lack of progress in that case.
There has undoubtedly been a lot of progress. I think the problem is that it's from a low base and not enough. To progress back into a world beating side, Ole needs to find a tactical sophistication that he simply does not possess, and he needs to find a better squad that the Glazers will never fund. These are not really surmountable problems except by changing the manager and the owners.
 

Keefy18

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I'm actually quite positive about the team we've got currently and even though I think Ole isn't the right man for the job, I think he deserves a chance next season.
I just don't buy the lack of depth argument.
He's ran our players into the ground.
Did you not read the OP?

The is explained why certain players have been ran into the ground.

The proof is there that he simply doesn't have quality in the squad like you suggest.

I mean, he's still working with a squad that has Rojo, Jones, Lingard & Periera!
 

Keefy18

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To your first point, I can't see that being possible, so not really worth answering.
To your second point, also, no it's no progress. Of course there is a happy medium here, but saying what a great job he's doing while scraping top 4 is pushing it.

Three teams are fighting for 2 positions right now.
Man United: Spent 150m in the summer and got rid of 3 players they didn't want
Chelsea: Spent 0 in summer, lost their best player
Leicester: Lost their captain and arguably their best player in the summer, while spending roughly 85m

All three sides had managers come in around similar sorts of times
One side stood still (Us)
One side digressed (Chelsea)
One side progressed (Leicester)
You have an extremely binary way of thinking, there are far too many variables within football to say something so absolute.

Man United did indeed spend €150m but they had a squad in far worse condition than both Chelsea & Leicester.

Lukaku was overweight, Sanchez a bad attitude, Hererra refused to sign a new deal (bad attitude again?) and Valencia well past his best. This is before we get into further issues with perma injured players like Bailly, Rojo & Jones and the perma crap Lingard & Periera.

Chelsea may have lost Hazard but they were preparing for his departure for at least 2 years and had Abraham loaned out in time and his goals have replaced Hazards. Outside of losing Hazard their squad is full of experienced league winners and hell, they won the Europa as well to show they know what it takes to win trophies.

Both Leicester and Chelsea are two clubs that have been better ran than we have in recent years, have title wins far more recently that we do and have squads full of experienced league winners and talented youth.

When Ole came into the club in December 2018 after United were utterly destroyed by Liverpool, United sat 11 points adrift of......... Chelsea in 4th! By May and the end of the 18/19 season that lead was cut to 6pts and today... we sit above them on GD tied on points.

You state

I just don't think we've seen progression, thats my problem, even with heavy investment
But the facts show otherwise

We've conceded less - 36 goals this term vs 54 last term
We''ll likely score more - 64 with 1 game to play vs 65 last year
We've more clean sheets - 12 vs 7

Ole has addressed the key issue of player sales and clearing much of the dead wood around the club, but still is left with quite a bit to do and yet competing!
Ole has invested very well in both AWB & Maguire and the proof is there over the course of the season, but could do with another addition of a pacey CB.
Ole has pretty much improved every player at the club this year, I can't think of a single player who has regressed but you suggest there is no improvement?
Ole has turned the average age of the squad right around, last season the youngest side we fielded was 25 years and 2 months and this season just 24 years old.
Ole has clearly improved the squads overall fitness and our players are less injured as well. The only table we topped was the injury table...
https://www.90min.com/posts/6389205...-each-club-suffered-during-the-2018-19-season

Ole has turned us from a team that concedes possession, invites pressure on and lacked fitness (Jose's United) to a team that can retain possession, can mix between a high press and counter attacking football depending on the situation and has matter of fact improved on player fitness.

It's not perfect, but to state there is no progression is factually untrue, the above issues can all be counted as positive progression and why he has the support of many supporters now.
 

Zlaatan

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There has undoubtedly been a lot of progress. I think the problem is that it's from a low base and not enough. To progress back into a world beating side, Ole needs to find a tactical sophistication that he simply does not possess, and he needs to find a better squad that the Glazers will never fund. These are not really surmountable problems except by changing the manager and the owners.
How is it not enough when we've lost 1 game in the last 21? I really don't see how we could have progressed much more than we have considering the changes we've had to make since Ole took over and that he's only had two transfer windows to do it.
I'm far from convinced that he's the right man to take us back to the very top, but to get rid of him now wouldn't make any sense at all considering the upwards trajectory we're on.

As for the Glazer's, we're over €500mil in the red for the past 5 years when it comes to transfers which is comfortably more than everyone else in the league save for the cheaters. Just because we've been incompetent with our transfers doesn't mean that we haven't spent a feck ton of money.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Well if we don't qualify for CL because of exhaustion then it is very much one guy's fault - the doofus who exhausted them when he didn't have to.
We had chances to secure this without relying on the final game, using exhaustion is just scapegoating and looking for excuse to blame an individual. Pogba was rested against Chelsea and why he still looks exhausted against West Ham? You are using this as an excuse to play the blame game!

Players are exhausted not because they are being overplayed by the manager but because of the schedule. If you want them to be well rested then tell the team to finish the game off before 60th minute so we can sub them off.
 

LoneStar

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Even forgetting about the stats for a moment, the way we play under Ole has been the best football we have played in a long time.

Since the restart we have looked so confident, bordering on arrogance. Love it. This is the first time I feel we can come back from 2 goals behind at halftime to draw or win it.
 

glazed

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How is it not enough when we've lost 1 game in the last 21? I really don't see how we could have progressed much more than we have considering the changes we've had to make since Ole took over and that he's only had two transfer windows to do it.
It's not about that. It's about not having a playing system that allows different players to slot in comfortably.

I'm far from convinced that he's the right man to take us back to the very top, but to get rid of him now wouldn't make any sense at all considering the upwards trajectory we're on.
This is fair but, I believe, wrong. I would suggest that this trajectory is a blind alley because it relies on top players over-performing within an over-simplistic playing style. And when those players don't over-perform we get found out.

It's not really a foundation to build on. To progress we will have to find a more sophisticated playing style, and most of these players won't fit it so there will be no continuity to the next phase of development. That's why we need a DoF and a better manager.

As for the Glazer's, we're over €500mil in the red for the past 5 years when it comes to transfers which is comfortably more than everyone else in the league save for the cheaters. Just because we've been incompetent with our transfers doesn't mean that we haven't spent a feck ton of money.
The two go together. We spend money on young players with big resale (many of whom fail to prosper) or old players on low transfer fees (most of whom are past it). We don't generally buy peak world class players, with a fvery ew exceptions. Because financial considerations trump football considerations.
 

Revan

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Did you not read the OP?

The is explained why certain players have been ran into the ground.

The proof is there that he simply doesn't have quality in the squad like you suggest.

I mean, he's still working with a squad that has Rojo, Jones, Lingard & Periera!
Just a reminder: it was Ole who extended the contracts of Jones and Pereira.
 

glazed

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Pogba was rested against Chelsea and why he still looks exhausted against West Ham? You are using this as an excuse to play the blame game!
No Pogba came on in second half against Chelsea. He should have been at home. But he wasn't the main exhaustion culprit. Rashford, Bruno, Maguire should all have been rested for sure.

Players are exhausted not because they are being overplayed by the manager but because of the schedule.
Kind of the same thing isn't it?
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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No Pogba came on in second half against Chelsea. He should have been at home. But he wasn't the main exhaustion culprit. Rashford, Bruno, Maguire should all have been rested for sure.



Kind of the same thing isn't it?
He still rested though. Playing 35 mins is massive different to playing 90 mins. Your original point was that the manager should have do 5-6 rotation and Pogba was one of the player being rotated and still doesn’t make any difference to why he looks exhausted.

End of the day, rested or no in that Chelsea game, players are already being exhausted because of the schedule they have given us. We had chances to secure this without relying on the final game so don’t play the blame game because of your lame excuse.
 

glazed

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We had chances to secure this without relying on the final game so don’t play the blame game because of your lame excuse.
What happened before is irrelevant to the argument about team selection that day. Playing a strong team on Sunday was a huge, possibly fatal error, given where we were, and that was born out against West Ham. We may well see it again tomorrow. If we do, remember that performance against Leicester was Made in Chelsea.

I don't need to make excuses, lame or otherwise. Ole and no-one else is very much to blame for this particular error, and if it costs us Champions League then it's on him. It doesn't make you a better fan to defend him with weak arguments. It just makes you the first to get a bit abusive.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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What happened before is irrelevant to the argument about team selection that day. Playing a strong team on Sunday was a huge, possibly fatal error, given where we were, and that was born out against West Ham. We may well see it again tomorrow. If we do, remember that performance against Leicester was Made in Chelsea.

I don't need to make excuses, lame or otherwise. Ole and no-one else is very much to blame for this particular error, and if it costs us Champions League then it's on him. It doesn't make you a better fan to defend him with weak arguments. It just makes you the first to get a bit abusive.
If the last Sunday game alone is called error from one manager then it should apply to Lampard who only made 3 rotations. If we are exhausted then the same thing on Chelsea players who made zero rotation against Liverpool and they have less 2 hours rest than us to prepare for their next game. If Chelsea doesn't fail against Wolves from being exhausted, why can't we do the same thing?

If the Pogba being rested argument doesn't get through you, surely this should give you better understanding that one single game alone isn't the reason for failure.
 

Keefy18

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Just a reminder: it was Ole who extended the contracts of Jones and Pereira.
It's as much to add value than anything.

Folks would likely to complain then that they went for free or close to it.
 

Revan

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It's as much to add value than anything.

Folks would likely to complain then that they went for free or close to it.
When did that ever work for us? When did we extended the contract of an useless player in order to add value and then to sell him? I swear that this was said for Jones’ last 3 contracts or so.
 

Jaqen H'ghar

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I know points total isn't the only thing to go off, but it gives a good guide to how our side has progressed over the course of a season.
We've hailed managers as a disaster for not reaching the top 4.
They've all been sacked, with Mourinho getting the chance as he won the Europa one year.

We've spent a lot of money this summer, more than any other side I think? yet with 16 teams the same as last year and 3 different, we've at best matched last seasons points total. Is that progress?
We're lucky teams around us have been as poor as us to keep us in a position to qualify for the Champions League

Ok, let me ask you it another way.
At the start of the season we sell a 'Donkey', loan out a defender people have wanted away for years and Sanchez, a player we've all agreed has been a flop, and then go on to spend 150m give or take on 3 players, while spending another 50 or so in January and getting at best, 66 points, the same as the season just gone, would you have seen that as progress?
This argument falls at the first hurdle, because that's not how points work. They are not a metric of progress, they are a metric of level as compared to the other teams in the league in a given season. At the end of a season the standings are a better indicator of team progress, not the tally.
 

Jaqen H'ghar

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Here's another stat:

Our treble winners had the worst points tally of almost all PL winners till date and 42nd overall (even lower than clubs who didn't win the title).

There is so much more to football than black and white metrics like points tally esp comparing different seasons. Progress can be measured in other tangible ways. The whole point of this thread is to put into perspective the negatives we have faced this season (injuries, lack of depth and fixture congestions) despite which we are third atm and just had a 19 game unbeaten record. If you want to ignore everything positive we've had (attacking intent, positivity, individual players improving, getting rid of deadwood, bringing in players consistent with what United stands for) because "points" - I don't think there is much to debate really.
Pretty much this.
 

Keefy18

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When did that ever work for us? When did we extended the contract of an useless player in order to add value and then to sell him? I swear that this was said for Jones’ last 3 contracts or so.
Kinda difficult to make profit on players with a club that has failed in recent memory.

But the theory remains valid, better than letting them go for free and to get something for them.
 

Withnail

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Kinda difficult to make profit on players with a club that has failed in recent memory.

But the theory remains valid, better than letting them go for free and to get something for them.
Not if it means you can't actually get rid of them. In the old days players over 30 were given 1 year extensions.

However, I think that's Ed's decision rather than the managers. Its him who's given interviews talking about protecting assets.

As for Ole's part the squad is thin enough, we can't be selling off anymore players without replacements. If Jones was fit he'd be a useful squad player and Pereira's been useful in the cups and started over 20 times in all comps along with a bunch of sub appearances.
 

Keefy18

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Not if it means you can't actually get rid of them. In the old days players over 30 were given 1 year extensions.

However, I think that's Ed's decision rather than the managers. Its him who's given interviews talking about protecting assets.

As for Ole's part the squad is thin enough, we can't be selling off anymore players without replacements. If Jones was fit he'd be a useful squad player and Pereira's been useful in the cups and started over 20 times in all comps along with a bunch of sub appearances.
Who actually wants Jones though? :lol:

All clubs, bar Arsenal pretty much give out new deals to players to protect their "assets" and if were honest, that's what players are these days.

Jones and Periera are not useful squad additions at all :lol::lol:

They aren't playing cause we drop too many points when they start games. Games like Brugge, Everton & Norwich where we all drew had players like Lingard, Pereira and Jones playing and we struggled.
 

Withnail

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Who actually wants Jones though? :lol:

All clubs, bar Arsenal pretty much give out new deals to players to protect their "assets" and if were honest, that's what players are these days.

Jones and Periera are not useful squad additions at all :lol::lol:

They aren't playing cause we drop too many points when they start games. Games like Brugge, Everton & Norwich where we all drew had players like Lingard, Pereira and Jones playing and we struggled.
It's doesn't make any sense to tie down a player to a long contract to protect an asset you can't sell. Your just taking up space on your wage bill.

I just double-checked, Pereira made 39 appearances this year in all competitions. I don't think you can argue we didn't need to keep him, as we couldn't replace him.

Once we bought Bruno he was out of the picture and rightly so.

Anyway, I said Jones would be useful if fit, which is a big if. Pereira was useful in the context of resting other players.
 

Keefy18

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It's doesn't make any sense to tie down a player to a long contract to protect an asset you can't sell. Your just taking up space on your wage bill.
It's a risk no doubt, but in today's game with egos, agents and demands to leave clubs... it adds a bit more bargaining power when sale time arrives.

I just double-checked, Pereira made 39 appearances this year in all competitions. I don't think you can argue we didn't need to keep him, as we couldn't replace him.

Once we bought Bruno he was out of the picture and rightly so.
It's not the quantity issue I'm addressing, more so the quality ;)

We were 14 pts adrift of 3rd place up to the end of January and we dropped far too many points with the squad players involved. Ole is in a situation where he literally has a starting XI to rely upon and outside of that it is slim pickings.

I'd be very confident he wants rid of Rojo, Jones, Smalling, Dalot, Periera, Mata and Lingard.

Obviously he needs replacements and it gives an idea still how much work is left to to for him.
 

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It's a risk no doubt, but in today's game with egos, agents and demands to leave clubs... it adds a bit more bargaining power when sale time arrives.



It's not the quantity issue I'm addressing, more so the quality ;)

We were 14 pts adrift of 3rd place up to the end of January and we dropped far too many points with the squad players involved. Ole is in a situation where he literally has a starting XI to rely upon and outside of that it is slim pickings.

I'd be very confident he wants rid of Rojo, Jones, Smalling, Dalot, Periera, Mata and Lingard.

Obviously he needs replacements and it gives an idea still how much work is left to to for him.
I got you, that point was more around the other posters contention that they shouldn't have been given contracts.

Yeah that list all pretty much need to go but it'll take a while. It'll be a few seasons I'd say.

Apart from maybe Dalot, I don't think we've seen enough of him since the injury. He looked good going forward in flashes when he first came to the club.
 

lysglimt

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This is fair but, I believe, wrong. I would suggest that this trajectory is a blind alley because it relies on top players over-performing within an over-simplistic playing style. And when those players don't over-perform we get found out.
Which of our players have over-performed ?

Rashford was a lot better before his injury
Pogba is still a shadow of the player he can be
DDG is a shadow of the player he can be
Williams and Greenwood will get better with more muscles and experience
AWB can get better when he gets more crosses in

How much better do you think we will be if Pogba gets to the same level he shows for France or if Rashford performs like he did before the injury ? Or when (if) DDG stops those concentration-errors
 

7even

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Season reveiw Ole Gunnar Solkjaer 2019/20. (Maybe the wrong thread?)

I will give him 8/10. If we win the EL then he’s worth 9/10.

Three things changed our season. Bruno, Pogba without injuries, and Greenwood a couple of pounds heavier.

Our transfers has so far been a success. Our defense looks sometimes a little bit shaky, they are not always compatible and our center backs lacks speed but overall it’s more then satisfying.

Our biggest improvement must be our excellent midfield. Bruno was the missing cog.

Our offense has gone from frustrating to reliable. With three exceptional talents up front we score goals for fun.

The club must give Ole a least two more seasons to continue his project with rebuilding our squad. Ole’s biggest strengths is that he gives the club a stability. No more dramas. His diplomatic skills is second to none. He knows who to release and who to buy. Things he needs to improve is his game management and his tactical skills. Not because it’s bad but to reach the absolute top you need all the ingredients to succeed.

Next season is phase two. The expectations will increase, top four is a must and from now one there is no excuses. I will label Ole’s first whole season as a success. It started ugly but in the end we looked like a new team. The table don’t lie. I’m satisfied and look forward to next season.
 

Isotope

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Just a reminder: it was Ole who extended the contracts of Jones and Pereira.
Ole was just a caretaker at that time, that might be gone at the end of his short term contract.
It's everyone's guess how much power he has on negotiating player's contract.
 

glazed

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Which of our players have over-performed ?

Rashford was a lot better before his injury
Pogba is still a shadow of the player he can be
DDG is a shadow of the player he can be
Williams and Greenwood will get better with more muscles and experience
AWB can get better when he gets more crosses in
During the unbeaten run - Rashford was excellent until the injury. Bruno was excellent until he got exhausted. And Greenwood really excelled for a decent period. Martial was also excellent in the run in. AWB was excellent for a long period.

What we lack above all IMHO - what Liverpool have - is a system that lets you grind out results from muscle memory and tactical superiority even when no one is playing that well. They say title winning teams win even when they play badly. That's what we need to be.
 

Strelok

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Just came across this. So happy we seem to be the team who has the biggest number :drool:
Been a big while that we hardly show up in those clips.

 

DevilRed

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It's going to be an absolute pleasure watching this side mature and grow into hopefully one of the best in the world.

We are a couple more additions to becoming a team that can truely compete for the major trophies.
 

Gandalf Greyhame

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I might have lost a lot of optimism I had in this thread over the summer. The most promising side since SAF, the best opportunity to take it to the next level, and we massively underwhelm in recruitment to make that promise count in the summer that follows.

In fiction, one definition of tragedy is the the metaphorical distance between what is and what could have been. It's going to be dramatic, but I think this transfer window has potential to be quite a tragedy in hindsight.

I really hope I eat my words before the window ends, but I don't have faith in our competence at all.
 

Bilbo

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I might have lost a lot of optimism I had in this thread over the summer. The most promising side since SAF, the best opportunity to take it to the next level, and we massively underwhelm in recruitment to make that promise count in the summer that follows.

In fiction, one definition of tragedy is the the metaphorical distance between what is and what could have been. It's going to be dramatic, but I think this transfer window has potential to be quite a tragedy in hindsight.

I really hope I eat my words before the window ends, but I don't have faith in our competence at all.
Keep your optimism. God knows this place needs all it can get. We have a very good, and very promising team and I think we are going to have a good season
 

Amadaeus

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The most promising side with the least promising manager. Great combination that. Hoping that Ole turns it around, but I don’t expect much change unless we sign another world class player similiar to how we signed Bruno, to help us win trophies and the league. At the moment, this promising side is one great manager and few quality squad players addition away from champions league glory.
 

Bilbo

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The most promising side with the least promising manager. Great combination that. Hoping that Ole turns it around, but I don’t expect much change unless we sign another world class player similiar to how we signed Bruno, to help us win trophies and the league. At the moment, this promising side is one great manager and few quality squad players addition away from champions league glory.
Let me guess. Someone like Pochettino?
 

Crashoutcassius

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I might have lost a lot of optimism I had in this thread over the summer. The most promising side since SAF, the best opportunity to take it to the next level, and we massively underwhelm in recruitment to make that promise count in the summer that follows.

In fiction, one definition of tragedy is the the metaphorical distance between what is and what could have been. It's going to be dramatic, but I think this transfer window has potential to be quite a tragedy in hindsight.

I really hope I eat my words before the window ends, but I don't have faith in our competence at all.
well said. really disappointing and hard to make excuses. some windows are important and others less so, this one is important
 

Strelok

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The most promising side with the least promising manager. Great combination that. Hoping that Ole turns it around, but I don’t expect much change unless we sign another world class player similiar to how we signed Bruno, to help us win trophies and the league. At the moment, this promising side is one great manager and few quality squad players addition away from champions league glory.
Not this again, you're amazing mate :lol:

I really hope Poch would get a job this season. Not at Utd though.

Manager is the last thing we'd need to worry about now.
 

Gandalf Greyhame

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Didn't take long for the club to kill all positivity. A debate for another day, but I still blame Woodward for yesterday's loss - the negativity has clearly affected the players' mentality.

What hit me yesterday was that as a club, we've turned into Arsenal. We play for 4th place, put together some pretty football at times, have no leaders and implode mentally at the first sign of trouble. We're second to 50/50s, naive in the dark arts, and are more likely to concede more when we go down than come back. As Troy Deeney would put it, we lack cojones.

Ironically, a boost of the good old Jose siege mentality would have been nice. We seemed to be feeling sorry for ourselves instead. Heads dropping too quickly.

We needed Sancho, a top CB and a better striker backup than this version of Cavani. We needed to let more deadwood go. This WAS the most promising side since SAF, but instead of building on it, we've managed to pull it down a notch while everyone else strengthened.

I don't know when our next window of opportunity will come again.