Eight games away from another disastrous season under Ole

roonster09

Hercule Poirot of the scouting world
Scout
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
36,630
It was meant to be a rebuttal to people who might wrongfully claim Mourinho's start impeded us last season. Point is, we've done about the same this season with this manager in charge beginning to end.
So you want to deal with facts but somehow you don't see how Jose's first 17 games was the reason for not finishing in top 4?

We averaged 1.5 points per game with Jose and 1.9 PPG under Ole.

We will achieve same points this season but that has nothing to do with last season and how Jose's start was the reason for shit season.
 

Relevated

fixated with venom and phalluses
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
25,995
Location
18M1955/JU5
Can't believe you all have fallen for Oles fraud, we would be midtable if it weren't for Bruno, Martial and Rashford.
Yes, can you imagine if we didnt have ferdinand, vidic, rooney, ronaldo, scholes, carrick, van der sar, wes brown, gary neville and tevez back in the days? Imagine if we never even had a stadium? Where would we even play haha fergie would have been exposed as the ultime con artist. Somehow he fluked his way and made us believe hes good.
 

Foxbatt

New Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
14,297
Can't believe you all have fallen for Oles fraud, we would be midtable if it weren't for Bruno, Martial and Rashford.
This is satire isn't it? We would be in the championship if we had championship players.
 

gerdm07

Thinks we should have kept Pereira
Joined
Aug 8, 2011
Messages
2,747
Erm, not that it really matters but I am in management, thanks. Funnily enough I also analyse numbers all day. Last season we were widely accepted as diabolical until Ole came in, so must have been an awful year and he could only get better with those number things. Let me check...ah yes 66 points. So this year we must be crushing that for my naive, management-spectacles to have missed it. Let me see, looking right here, oh with one match left we can at best get to...66 points.

So half a season of Mourinho ball before Ole joined and we got to a point total that we literally cannot exceed this year.

Now listen, I'm as pleased as pie that Pogba and even Martial are smiling again. As per my post. But let me go ahead and offer you some career advice: don't dive into a pool until you check if there's water in it.
Well a good manager would evaluate Ole a little like this:

- Great start with a very good run
- Made it past PSG in CL
- Injuries stopped the nice run (remember 4 players getting injured in the Liverpool and PSG matches?)
- Slogged through the rest of Spring
- Decent start in 19/20 but injuries to Pogba and Martial slowed progress
- Slogged through the Oct, Nov, Dec and Jan but managed to improve a number of players and got some decent results
- Bruno comes and energized team and good run starts but Rashford injury made Ole rely on James and other squad players
- Covid-19
- Restart is fabulous with all best players healthy and playing well
- Fatigue sets in and it becomes survival of the fittest to get 4th

Hopefully:
- Secures top 4

You would really replace someone in your workplace with that record? If you did, morale would likely dive and a number of employees would leave. Well done.
 

POF

Full Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Messages
3,797
Of course. Look at the litany of facts, figures and logic you've provided.

The personal sensitivities of some of the Ole acolytes is quite astounding.


It was meant to be a rebuttal to people who might wrongfully claim Mourinho's start impeded us last season. Point is, we've done about the same this season with this manager in charge beginning to end.
You're arguing your point far better than those refuting it but just looking at points totals season on season will never be the best way to assess it.

Last season was impacted by Jose's start. This season was impacted by a huge turnover of senior players and playing the first half of the season with no forwards.

When people talk about a rebuild and having some pain before things turn around, it's often a manager trying to buy himself time. In this instance, it's great to see the progress as the changes are made. Do you not see significant improvements in the side as the season has gone on?
 

Beachryan

More helpful with spreadsheets than Phurry
Joined
May 13, 2010
Messages
11,627
Well a good manager would evaluate Ole a little like this:

- Great start with a very good run
- Made it past PSG in CL
- Injuries stopped the nice run (remember 4 players getting injured in the Liverpool and PSG matches?)
- Slogged through the rest of Spring
- Decent start in 19/20 but injuries to Pogba and Martial slowed progress
- Slogged through the Oct, Nov, Dec and Jan but managed to improve a number of players and got some decent results
- Bruno comes and energized team and good run starts but Rashford injury made Ole rely on James and other squad players
- Covid-19
- Restart is fabulous with all best players healthy and playing well
- Fatigue sets in and it becomes survival of the fittest to get 4th

Hopefully:
- Secures top 4

You would really replace someone in your workplace with that record? If you did, morale would likely dive and a number of employees would leave. Well done.
Sure, that's one way to do it. The other is, hey bud, your critical development goal this year was to reach a 4. We agreed it before you started, and I know it's been a tough year, but unfortunately this is a highly competitive company, and anyone that doesn't achieve their goals gets put on probation. So listen, if you get a 4, or a 3, we're golden, but if you get a 5, then sorry but that's on you.

Seriously, I like Ole. If he gets top 4 he's done his job. But we also shouldn't ignore that the league this year is kind of hot trash, and getting 63 points is a failure for Manchester United.
 

Withnail

Full Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Messages
29,773
Location
The Arena of the Unwell
Sure, that's one way to do it. The other is, hey bud, your critical development goal this year was to reach a 4. We agreed it before you started, and I know it's been a tough year, but unfortunately this is a highly competitive company, and anyone that doesn't achieve their goals gets put on probation. So listen, if you get a 4, or a 3, we're golden, but if you get a 5, then sorry but that's on you.

Seriously, I like Ole. If he gets top 4 he's done his job. But we also shouldn't ignore that the league this year is kind of hot trash, and getting 63 points is a failure for Manchester United.
And if Chelsea lose and we make top 4 anyway, 63 pts will still be a failure?
 

He'sRaldo

Full Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2019
Messages
3,200
We should judge progress by our distance from the top, not by top 4 alone. The latter is a surefire way to turn into Arsenal.
 
Last edited:

Beachryan

More helpful with spreadsheets than Phurry
Joined
May 13, 2010
Messages
11,627
And if Chelsea lose and we make top 4 anyway, 63 pts will still be a failure?
Passes by the skin of his teeth. But yes, 63 points in the premier league should be a failure for Manchester United, imo.
 

Stack

Leave Women's Football Alone!!!
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
13,318
Location
Auckland New Zealand
Of course. Look at the litany of facts, figures and logic you've provided.

The personal sensitivities of some of the Ole acolytes is quite astounding.
Seems to me like your personal sensitivities are at their highest setting Karen
 

sglowrider

Thinks the caf is 'wokeish'.
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Messages
25,201
Location
Hell on Earth
Yes, can you imagine if we didnt have ferdinand, vidic, rooney, ronaldo, scholes, carrick, van der sar, wes brown, gary neville and tevez back in the days? Imagine if we never even had a stadium? Where would we even play haha fergie would have been exposed as the ultime con artist. Somehow he fluked his way and made us believe hes good.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
 

Snow

Somewhere down the lane, a licky boom boom down
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
33,318
Location
Lousy Smarch weather
I'm just glad we've got this kind of excitement on the back of some excellent football to look forward too with still the EL left to go. Not something I expected before the season. Ole brought the fun back.
 

Lelouch geass

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 25, 2018
Messages
179
Location
Ktm nepal
Really? Possibility of 5th, extremely poor performances, a manager who’s looked clueless last few games.

He’s a bang average manager
Still better than jose. Billion dollar pep who hasnt won anything this season, and could be better than lampard or brendan rodger. Tell me one manager who can guarentee pl title. None
 

Lj82

Full Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2016
Messages
1,060
Location
Singapore
I’m a fan of Paul’s analysis and indeed Scott is having a learning problem when the other players seem to improve. We are 100% playing with Matic or Fred to progress the ball fast on Sunday.
Wrong thread but I won't write him off yet. He did improve other aspects of his game and was very good earlier in the season.
In fact when you look in to the analysis posted there, he showed that he could do it. It's just not instinctive yet.
 

Mr PG

Full Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Messages
1,514
Ole has grown with the team but we wouldn,t even be close to top4 without Fernandes.

No point arguing endlessly if he's the right guy or not as he's here to stay. The little things drive me nuts though and I struggle to understand the missteps. Like playing first team players in the FA cup despite the obvious fatigue and now we drew with West Ham instead of win and we;re left needing a result against Leicester to qualify for Europe....

or playing Rashford and Pogba when they were obviously injured especially in the case of Rashford leaving him injured for months. (I mean I was telling my pals at home Rashford had a serious injury just the way he was running. Even worse was the fateful game that finally broke the camel's back was either an FA cup encounter or league cup game.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

Full Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2019
Messages
7,082
Ole has grown with the team but we wouldn,t even be close to top4 without Fernandes.

No point arguing endlessly if he's the right guy or not as he's here to stay. The little things drive me nuts though and I struggle to understand the missteps. Like playing first team players in the FA cup despite the obvious fatigue and now we drew with West Ham instead of win and we;re left needing a result against Leicester to qualify for Europe....

or playing Rashford and Pogba when they were obviously injured especially in the case of Rashford leaving him injured for months. (I mean I was telling my pals at home Rashford had a serious injury just the way he was running. Even worse was the fateful game that finally broke the camel's back was either an FA cup encounter or league cup game.
Playing the first team players was not smart imo. But in the end it doesn't matter because we got the necessary result against West Ham.
 

Strelok

New Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
5,279
Playing the first team players was not smart imo. But in the end it doesn't matter because we got the necessary result against West Ham.
Yeah but if he didn't half of the caf would call him an idiot with a loser mentality. I wanted him to rest the key players but I'm fine with him wanted to win a trophy.
 

Rake

Full Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2012
Messages
4,348
Location
Moon's Spawn
Yeah but if he didn't half of the caf would call him an idiot with a loser mentality. I wanted him to rest the key players but I'm fine with him wanted to win a trophy.
Like it matters what the CAF would have called him... We were spread thin and had to set priorities. While winning against West Ham wouldn't have changed the things a whole lot, it would have given us more options going into the last day.

If we fail to get CL, i`d consider this season a failure. Yes, we are on a great run, which most people did not expect, but the league is in terrible state and we are just scraping along. We are 15 points behind the second strongest team.
 

Strelok

New Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
5,279
Like it matters what the CAF would have called him... We were spread thin and had to set priorities. While winning against West Ham wouldn't have changed the things a whole lot, it would have given us more options going into the last day.

If we fail to get CL, i`d consider this season a failure. Yes, we are on a great run, which most people did not expect, but the league is in terrible state and we are just scraping along. We are 15 points behind the second strongest team.
Of course it doesn't, it's just a way to say people would question him if he didn't. And also the talk of rebuilding our winning culture. That's why despite me also wanted him to rest the key players I understand and I'm fine with him wanted to win.

It was actually a very difficult decision and he couldn't win either ways anyway unless we won the match.
 

Keefy18

Full Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2018
Messages
2,653
Thanks for the detailed response - I'm definitely with you on most of these reasons when I'm feeling glass half full. And obviously this period is not useful in evaluating fitness as we'll never again have this many matches every 3.3 days. Personnel are obviously important.

That said, earlier in the season we were very much hoping that some of the 'squad' players could step up and they've more or less been abandoned. Thinking James, Williams, McSauce in particular, but also someone like Mata could have a role. It baffles me that we're not seeing any of them, even as subs. Even Chong feels like a potentially useful 'last 10 minutes' sub for mixing things up, but he's been totally awol.

Sadly Ole is never going to get more than 3 signings in this summer imo. So a lot of this squad is still going to be important. I'd like us to adapt a style that allows some interchange, we can't just be a great first XI that is good enough to kind of exist outside of a system.
I think McTominay still has a bright future here.

He's got 2 great mentors in Matic and Carrick to learn from. It'll just take time and he is still only 23 so time is on his side and in a year or so could be a different player.

I think the squad has been marginalized in recent weeks cause we had such a huge gap to close and we had to shoot out of the gates post lock down and win as many points as possible. They are now showing serious signs of fatigue and its catching up now.
 

anant

Correctly predicted Italy to win Euro 2020
Joined
Feb 28, 2015
Messages
8,259
Am I missing something when people are saying "Ole is a shit manager and relies on moments of individual brilliance"? Last I checked, Pep didn't win the PL when he didn't have Laporte for majority of the season, or when he had to rely on Nolito and the likes. Klopp didn't win PL when he didn't have VVD or Alison. Hell Klopp didn't finish in European places when he didn't have Salah. Are these guys frauds too?

Give the manager time to make the side his, and if the progress isn't evident then present a case of why he should be sacked. Like in Jose's case - even after effectively making the entire side his own, we weren't even close enough for challenging for the title and were barely a top 4 side, and ditto for LVG. We've bought well this season, and there has been clear progress made on all fronts. Give him time to reach the latter stages of his project and then take a decision rather than taking a decision based on outcome of 1 game
 

Relevated

fixated with venom and phalluses
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
25,995
Location
18M1955/JU5
How can you say Ole is only good because of his players


Thats why he signed them. So they can be good for him.
 

Keefy18

Full Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2018
Messages
2,653
Sure, that's one way to do it. The other is, hey bud, your critical development goal this year was to reach a 4. We agreed it before you started, and I know it's been a tough year, but unfortunately this is a highly competitive company, and anyone that doesn't achieve their goals gets put on probation. So listen, if you get a 4, or a 3, we're golden, but if you get a 5, then sorry but that's on you.

Seriously, I like Ole. If he gets top 4 he's done his job. But we also shouldn't ignore that the league this year is kind of hot trash, and getting 63 points is a failure for Manchester United.
Who said it was agreed with Ole before he started?

We're you at the negotiation table?

Such closed minded binary thinking in your posts.
 

Withnail

Full Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Messages
29,773
Location
The Arena of the Unwell
Passes by the skin of his teeth. But yes, 63 points in the premier league should be a failure for Manchester United, imo.
Points totals are essentially meaningless when compared to league position.

This just seems like a convenient stick to beat the manager with.

Looking at the squad at the start of the year I wasn't sure it was good enough to make top 4, were you?
 

Strelok

New Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
5,279
Points totals are essentially meaningless when compared to league position.

This just seems like a convenient stick to beat the manager with.

Looking at the squad at the start of the year I wasn't sure it was good enough to make top 4, were you?
Top 4 ?? Our squad going into the season was definitely top 3 material.
 

POF

Full Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Messages
3,797
Top 4 ?? Our squad going into the season was definitely top 3 material.
At least!

Especially when Pogba and Martial got injured and they had a first choice front 4 of Pereira, Lingard, James and Rashford. They really should have been challenging Liverpool and City with that firepower.
 

Hammondo

Full Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2015
Messages
6,824
Maybe its not a terrible or great season, maybe its just meh. I vote meh.

We spent a lot, most didn't work out well (massively overspent on some), some very well (Bruno). We still have massive problems and it doesn't look like we are fixing them. A lot spent but not a great team on paper, but its better than before... Meh.

It wasn't a good season for the PL in general with lots of teams under performing/rebuilding, but we might make top 4. it is ok.

Meh I say!
 

lysglimt

Full Member
Scout
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
15,231
[
Bielsa is a bit Van Gaal like but more extreme. An excellent coach, but probably would be a disaster of a manager here. He is also 200 years old.
Can someone explain to me - apart from getting Leeds back into the P.L, what has Bielsa done that was so great ?

He had one season at Velez Sarsfield in the 90s that was good

He took over Argenting in 1998 and did good yes - but with players like Balbo, Ayala, Veron, Ortega, Simeone, Lopez, Batistuta, Crespo and Zanetti - a quarterfinal in the 98 world cup was about as expected, and then they were awful in 2002 and went out to Sweden and England

He moved to Chile in the world cup in 2010. Did ok in the groupstages in a fairly easy group, and got hammered by Brazil in the first knock-out match.

Took over Athletic Bilbao - and did fairly poorly. (38% win) before he did quite good with Marseille.

Took over Lazio and quit before a game had been played - because he was unhappy with player recruitment. Went to Lille and did an awful job with 5 wins in 19.

So what has he done in his almost 30 years as manager than make people believe he is a top manager ?
 

rotherham_red

Full Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Messages
7,408
[


Can someone explain to me - apart from getting Leeds back into the P.L, what has Bielsa done that was so great ?

He had one season at Velez Sarsfield in the 90s that was good

He took over Argenting in 1998 and did good yes - but with players like Balbo, Ayala, Veron, Ortega, Simeone, Lopez, Batistuta, Crespo and Zanetti - a quarterfinal in the 98 world cup was about as expected, and then they were awful in 2002 and went out to Sweden and England

He moved to Chile in the world cup in 2010. Did ok in the groupstages in a fairly easy group, and got hammered by Brazil in the first knock-out match.

Took over Athletic Bilbao - and did fairly poorly. (38% win) before he did quite good with Marseille.

Took over Lazio and quit before a game had been played - because he was unhappy with player recruitment. Went to Lille and did an awful job with 5 wins in 19.

So what has he done in his almost 30 years as manager than make people believe he is a top manager ?
He's one of those football romantics.

Though his achievements with Newell's Old Boys are certainly worthy of praise. I think he's a little overrated because of his dogmatic approach which has meant that his on-pitch achievements are given more credence than they otherwise would have been given
 

fps

Full Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Messages
5,495
I think a lot of the posters still criticising Ole have little experience of managing people or having to build systems for success, it’s all very Football Manager-y, as if success will be instant or not at all, as if the process of improvement also happens overnight or not at all. They don’t understand individuals’ contributions to group dynamics and how they help establish cultures, and act as if morale is something which simply exists regardless of who comes in. That’s ironic given the failings of each manager since Fergie, and indeed the culture change he had to install at the club.

I don’t know if Ole can lead United to a league title, there is some staggering competiton now. But I know I enjoy watching his team play, I trust him to sign the right kinds of players, I see the players playing for him and each other, and anyone who can’t see this team is the most exciting since Fergie has wilfully blinded themselves.
 

Pretzels81

Not Salty…
Newbie
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
1,766
4th and EL title still possible. Up to the players and manager. No excuses.