Finishing 3rd, 33 points off PL winners, and no Trophy (yet) is utter rubbish and shouldn't be celebrated...

roonster09 said:

Chelsea and Leicester were in poor form before the covid break, they got good time to regroup.

You have went full what if, would have, could have scenarios.

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We know Leicester didn't recover. The point being even if we maintain good form, it's tougher challenge in normal circumstances. It's not unreasonable "what if", is it? Covid disruption is not normal, correct?

So if other people have a point about squad depth (lack of rotation, lack of trust in squad player...), less rest in between due to schedule... We know for certainty, playing EL on Thursday is a hinderance in those things; and that we have more games to play in same amount of time than Leicester, and likely Chelsea. It's a complete different challenge for us there.

It's a good job this thread started because there's been a notable lack of criticism of Utd on this forum over the last 2/3 seasons.

I got up in the euphoria, i'm giddy. So glad some perspective has been put on it so I can finally stop celebrating

Couldnt disagree more. People, like yourself, seem to be comparing us with the teams/success we had under Sir Alex. Thats gone now! We havent been that team since Sir Alex retired and it seems we're still quite a way off it.

That being said, if we compare our season with previous seasons following the retirment of Sir Alex, apart from finishing second under Jose, this is our best league finish and should be celebrated, in my opinion. Are we the finished article? Of course not, but the appointment of Ole has shown progression, which, as a club in transition, is all he can currently do.

Now our next step is to progress even further and try and bridge that gap between City and Liverpool. A lot of work to do, but it seems we're moving in the right direction.

Im sure its been mentioned already in the 10 pages I couldnt be bothered to read, but this has been the first season where it actually seems like we have a plan, a [good] style of football and a good core of young players who can persist for several years to come.

Whilst we may not have won anything, and may have finished lower than - for example - Jose's 2nd season, the difference has been night and day regarding the football on display, the atmosphere and attitude coming out of the club and the general sense of optimism rather than toxicity. Ill take that.

Inigo Montoya said:

It's a good job this thread started because there's been a notable lack of criticism of Utd on this forum over the last 2/3 seasons.

I got up in the euphoria, i'm giddy. So glad some perspective has been put on it so I can finally stop celebrating

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Nothing wrong with fans being happy with a positive end to the season. CL football is important for the club, from a financial and recruitment perspective, especially in the current climate. We don't have rich owners that can let us not have to worry about money.

I would have been annoyed about it if the players were celebrating, but they did not. So, if the fans want to enjoy it I don't really care, nor do I see the problem with it. Different people find different things to enjoy and find happiness in.

Rhyme Animal said:

And yet, I've received more anger than I've expressed myself...

I stand by my points. I love Utd and want what's best for the club. But different people have different opinions on things. No big deal.

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What's best for the club then? To not have finished in the CL or in the top three? I don't understand what the purpose of the thread is if I'm honest.

Rhyme Animal said:

And yet, I've received more anger than I've expressed myself...

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It's just fruitful discussion, stemming from a disagreement of opinions

A much-needed dose of criticism. Too much positivity on the Caf these past few months. Everyone praising Ole and the team. Can’t be having that guff...

Ace of Spades said:

Nothing wrong with fans being happy with a positive end to the season. CL football is important for the club, from a financial and recruitment perspective, especially in the current climate. We don't have rich owners that can let us not have to worry about money.

I would have been annoyed about it if the players were celebrating, but they did not. So, if the fans want to enjoy it I don't really care, nor do I see the problem with it. Different people find different things to enjoy and find happiness in.

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My post was rather ironic

midnightmare said:

A much-needed dose of criticism. Too much positivity on the Caf these past few months. Everyone praising Ole and the team. Can’t be having that guff...

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I agree...stone him! Stone him! he said Jehovah!

thegregster said:

It's relief more than celebration.

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Spot on. It's certainly relief to me. At last we have got over the hump and got into the CL.
By United standard it's a disaster. It has been a disaster since saf left. The EL brought us a certain relief that we won something at last.
The FA Cup brought the same relief. I wasn't proud that we got 2nd place under Jose. It was a relief that we didn't finish lower and that we were in the CL.
It's the same now. A bit embarrassed and sad that we didn't win anything this season so far. If we had won the FA Cup and got into CL it could have been a celebration. If we can win the EL I certainly would celebrate.

For me it's not about NOT celebrating, whatever the state of the league our minimum expectation for the squad should be CL football. Ole got that - yes he spent heavily and had good players already but he achieved third nonetheless. The issue is that we are exactly where we were previously despite spending so much money.

We finished 18/19 with 66 points after an awful period where Mou threw in the towel and a horrible end to the season where Ole lost a load on the bounce, we have the exact same points total now. This is all whilst factoring in how weak the PL is at the moment, it's not great but it's not a disaster.

This is heights of entitled behavior. No one club has a monopoly of winning the league or challenging for it every year. So what if we are Man Utd who have been successful in the past?

Results are based on near term planning and effective execution of that plan. You are disregarding what other clubs have achieved by demanding that we always be at the top and nothing else is acceptable. Yes we have dropped points but the other clubs have also played well. To make the assumption that our current league position is due to us "being shite" and nothing else is being entitled.

Also, the comparison with the Moyes season is laughable. No industry in the world measures progress against your highest results several years back. Progress is always measured in a quarterly or YoY basis.

Rhyme Animal said:

I'm reading lots of posters essentially celebrating what has been one of the crappest seasons overall in years, and it's hypocritical imo as well as a little pathetic.

This has been a fecking crap season, dippers winning the PL, no trophies yet and with Utd closer in points to relegation zone than to the top of the PL.

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It's definitely wrong to celebrate I agree. Don't know why they are celebrating it.

I am personally just pleased that we got into top 4 because it'll massively boost our transfer budget to improve the squad. We could lose 70m of the budget if we didn't make it so I'm glad we made it.

Rhyme Animal said:

I've seen multiple posters claim this is their favourite season post Fergie (!!??). Since Fergie retired we've...

Finished 2nd - 19 points off winning the PL

Won an FA Cup

Won the Europa League

Won the League Cup

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What's wrong with that? I've seen people placed some of United season above the winning treble or 07/08 season. Not everything are viewed on paper based on numbers. I think if we view it based on other things, there are more positive things in this season compared to the others (post SAF). From the development of young players, improvement of the players from the beginning to the end, the recruitments, the big games that we won, the fact that we did the double on City this season, the playing style & the season isn't ended yet.

Rhyme Animal said:

I'm reading lots of posters essentially celebrating what has been one of the crappest seasons overall in years, and it's hypocritical imo as well as a little pathetic.

This has been a fecking crap season, dippers winning the PL, no trophies yet and with Utd closer in points to relegation zone than to the top of the PL.

I've seen multiple posters claim this is their favourite season post Fergie (!!??). Since Fergie retired we've...

Finished 2nd - 19 points off winning the PL

Won an FA Cup

Won the Europa League

Won the League Cup

How the feck is finishing 3rd, no trophy, 33 points off the top, 32 points off the relegation zone now something to be fecking celebrated?

Ole should no doubt keep the job after securing CL footy, but please, please don't put this manager's plight above that of Utd itself, because it's an easy slide into mediocrity.

There are plus points about this season - few decent signings, one really special signing, more goals - but there's nothing that any fan of Man Utd should be actively celebrating.

It was a crap season, and the attitude should be, 'must do better next time', not 'that'll do', and certainly not, 'yay, what an achievement!'.

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Ask anyone who regularly attends OT and they were ok all tell you this is by far their favourite United team since Ferguson left .
This is a reason why we are so happy finishing 3rd because we actually like our team again plus it's great for Ole to prove his critics wrong .
This is baby steps we have fallen so far since Ferguson and for me Ole is doing a great job .
Hopefully we can buy quality again this summer and don't forget Liverpool finished 25 points behind city then went and Bought Alison and VVD and finished a point off City.
Buy the right players again and it's not impossible to mount a title challenge

Mindhunter said:

This is heights of entitled behavior. No one club has a monopoly of winning the league or challenging for it every year. So what if we are Man Utd who have been successful in the past?

Results are based on near term planning and effective execution of that plan. You are disregarding what other clubs have achieved by demanding that we always be at the top and nothing else is acceptable. Yes we have dropped points but the other clubs have also played well. To make the assumption that our current league position is due to us "being shite" and nothing else is being entitled.

Also, the comparison with the Moyes season is laughable. No industry in the world measures progress against your highest results several years back. Progress is always measured in a quarterly or YoY basis.

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Excellent post .
I agree with everything you have said but that's what success brings any club . Fans who feel we have the right to win everything every season .
We are on the right track thankfully

What a garbage thread

Walters_19_MuFc said:

Couldnt disagree more. People, like yourself, seem to be comparing us with the teams/success we had under Sir Alex. Thats gone now! We havent been that team since Sir Alex retired and it seems we're still quite a way off it.

That being said, if we compare our season with previous seasons following the retirment of Sir Alex, apart from finishing second under Jose, this is our best league finish and should be celebrated, in my opinion. Are we the finished article? Of course not, but the appointment of Ole has shown progression, which, as a club in transition, is all he can currently do.

Now our next step is to progress even further and try and bridge that gap between City and Liverpool. A lot of work to do, but it seems we're moving in the right direction.

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Couldn't agree more with this.

Rhyme Animal said:

I'm reading lots of posters essentially celebrating what has been one of the crappest seasons overall in years, and it's hypocritical imo as well as a little pathetic.

This has been a fecking crap season, dippers winning the PL, no trophies yet and with Utd closer in points to relegation zone than to the top of the PL.

I've seen multiple posters claim this is their favourite season post Fergie (!!??). Since Fergie retired we've...

Finished 2nd - 19 points off winning the PL

Won an FA Cup

Won the Europa League

Won the League Cup

How the feck is finishing 3rd, no trophy, 33 points off the top, 32 points off the relegation zone now something to be fecking celebrated?

Ole should no doubt keep the job after securing CL footy, but please, please don't put this manager's plight above that of Utd itself, because it's an easy slide into mediocrity.

There are plus points about this season - few decent signings, one really special signing, more goals - but there's nothing that any fan of Man Utd should be actively celebrating.

It was a crap season, and the attitude should be, 'must do better next time', not 'that'll do', and certainly not, 'yay, what an achievement!'.

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Agree.

Amadaeus said:

Nah, I just don’t want another wasted season. After the Paris game, when fans taught that we deserve the victory, I saw through that performance and could tell we were lucky to go through. The next leg, we were simple outclassed and looked like boys against men. Similarly to this season, we barely made top four and I notice several deficiencies in our team, especially with our management. If leceister didn’t collapse, Spurs Board supported Pochettino and they weren’t going through a transition, and Chelsea didn’t have that transfer ban, things would have been much harder. The stars aligned to get us into the top four. Next season, Chelsea are already buying quality players, and Spurs and Arsenal seems more stable at the moment. I expect them to be more competitive. The stars will not align as well as it did this season in the next season and if Ole doesn’t improve his managerial acumen, it will be another wasted season that will prevent us from getting back on top.

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If Pochettino aunt had balls, she'd be his uncle. Time to move on from a fella sacked by Spurs and start commending Ole for leading United to a 3rd place finish against the odds.

As for this thread especially the headline. One question to the OP, where was it celebrated? The reaction of the players and management said it all for me yesterday. Pleased to finish 3rd from where they were in January but no celebrations..

Whatever league position or silverwear we got in previous seasons after Fergie, none of that covers the fact that we had a dressing room filled with players who weren’t really devoted to the cause.

Ole has done a bang-up job in instilling the kind of ethos that made United the powerhouse that it was under Fergie, and we’re finally starting to recognise and like our team again.

OP can feel free to disagree, but don’t boil this down to a spreadsheet, there’s good reason for people to feel good about this season. Same way people can have a bigger soft spot for 06-07 than 07-08, even if our trophy haul was less impressive then.

Also, it’s worth keeping in mind that we shipped a fair few players without getting replacements in, had Pogba and Martial injured for significant chunks of the season, and whether you think it’s a false dawn or not, you can see why our resurgence this spring would make people excited. Long may it continue.

I am going to celebrate it.

What are you going to do about it?

Isn’t total points won a better indicator than position?

Did people always go on about total points or is this a new thing?

Oh look another person who is in need of attention .............

As if a new thread needed to be created for this, countless other Ole moaning threads, you could have cried in those, but no, we get another moaning thread where all the bitters can come in and cry while all the sane peeps come scratch their heads and think "why?"

You could have so easily gone into the "celebrating" thread and made your feelings known .........

You missed the mark completely.
What's being celebrated is the team playing exciting, competitive football for the first time in seven years, not to mention the cultural shift that matches the expectations of the crowd.
The mood in the dressing room seems very good and the players have developed and look satisfied playing for us. We have a big transfer window ahead and finished the season on a high note after being mid table garbage for most of it.
This team is likeable and competitive, and there's a general feeling that the only way is up and the sky is the limit.
This is something we've been missing for years, and yes, it's worth celebrating.

Withnail said:

Did people always go on about total points or is this a new thing?

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Its the next one on a pretty deep list of 'things people can use to not admit that Ole is doing a good job'.

We got 32 points in the 14 PL games after Bruno joined. That would put us on course for 87 points.

This is young side getting better, not an old side that's peaked. 66 points this season is the start of something, rather than the end of it like in 2018. That's a big difference. Points totals can sometimes be important, but context tells a much clearer story.

That's why it's worth being excited about. Not necessarily celebrating, but definitely excited.

Bilbo said:

Its the next one on a pretty deep list of 'things people can use to not admit that Ole is doing a good job'.

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I can see that but I wasn't on here before Jan '19 so I'm wondering if it was always something that was considered or if it's blatantly pulled out of their ass as a stick to beat him with?

Amadaeus said:

Nah, I just don’t want another wasted season. After the Paris game, when fans taught that we deserve the victory, I saw through that performance and could tell we were lucky to go through. The next leg, we were simple outclassed and looked like boys against men. Similarly to this season, we barely made top four and I notice several deficiencies in our team, especially with our management. If leceister didn’t collapse, Spurs Board supported Pochettino and they weren’t going through a transition, and Chelsea didn’t have that transfer ban, things would have been much harder. The stars aligned to get us into the top four. Next season, Chelsea are already buying quality players, and Spurs and Arsenal seems more stable at the moment. I expect them to be more competitive. The stars will not align as well as it did this season in the next season and if Ole doesn’t improve his managerial acumen, it will be another wasted season that will prevent us from getting back on top.

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What a load of nonsense. Doesn’t sound like you enjoy football much.

el3mel said:

Even though I agree the team has evolved in second half of season and we have higher potential than Chelsea imo, Liverpool have dropped in performance after they secured the league title and lost 8 points in the last 7 matches, beside I can't see anyway we'll be higher than City comes next season. They'll never be this inconsistent again, and I'm fully confident they'll win the league next season.

So being a close 3rd should be good enough for us next season. If we can push closer to Liverpool and City in top 2 it'll be a good enough season in the league.

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I can you see your point and yes, it could be derailed based on details, but I think a season is always tough so we will have our chances.

OP lives in a fantasy land that doesn’t exist. We are in the most competitive league in Europe, by far. There is no guarantee for trophies or top 4. It’s the toughest league by miles, and even mid and bottom table teams have 2-3x more money to spend than similar teams in France, Italy, Germany and Spain.

Will we ever reach the heights of prime SAF era again, where if we didn’t win the league, we were disappointed? Probably not. When you look at the money behind City, Chelsea and Liverpool, unless there is a change in ownership, we won't have 13 titles in 20 seasons again. Way too much competition and we are bidding against each other for the same top players, even at youth level.

I suppose those of you who need a league title every year or will have a tantrum, there are several teams you can support: PSG, Bayern, Juventus to name a few.

Falcow said:

Beating both City and Chelsea three times each in same season was also wonderful. Throw in Greenwood and it's easily my favourite post Fergie season which isn't hard.

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This is a very important reminder. Our record against the top 4 was brilliant, and proved Solskjaer (considered a clueless clown by a relevant section of our crowd) can outbest the likes of Ped Cashiola.
Squad depth and good fitness will lead to better results against low/mid table. Keep the record against the top 6 and we have a shot at the title if Liverpool or City don't have another freak season.

Genuinely worry for peoples mental health with this mentality

DSG said:

I suppose those of you who need a league title every year or will have a tantrum, there are several teams you can support: PSG, Bayern, Juventus to name a few.

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Most boring thing you can do in football is supporting one of those in the last years. The only real excitement comes in the form of UCL knockout games.

Amadaeus said:

If Moyes was our manager this season, he would have gotten us into the champions league.

We have been poor and the champions league accomplishments hides that. We must win the Europa league to make up for such a poor showing covered up by the brilliance of MMM, var and Bruno fernandes. With perhaps some recognition to our defense who didn’t do such a bad job either.

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What manager do you think could have won us the league?

Withnail said:

I can see that but I wasn't on here before Jan '19 so I'm wondering if it was always something that was considered or if it's blatantly pulled out of their ass as a stick to beat him with?

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The latter

When Jose got us second place, it was like taking part in a rocket race for the moon. He got the timing perfectly right for what he'd built and did a great job to ensure it reached its peak on the last day of the season. Unfortunately, the rocket was never good enough to get us all the way. It's design was unsustainable for the long term and was already slowing down significantly before it got anywhere close. Then it crashed miserably the next season.

Ole's rocket spluttered and stalled from August to January. So at the same point, he's behind where Jose got to at his peak. But for Solskjaer, this is a race over several seasons. It's finally kicked into gear now and is getting faster and faster. Unlike with Mourinho, nobody can tell how high its peak is going to be or how long it can stay there. But what we are able to tell is that it's trajectory looks like it's going to be be higher than at any time since Fergie was in charge - that's what's got us excited.

It's just unfortunate for Ole that our progress was formally measured yesterday rather than 6 months from now. That being said, the big positive from yesterday is that we've got an extra big boost to help us along the way.

So we're well on course to get to our destination and picking up pace in way we've never seen in 7 years. This situation has significantly more potential for ultimate success than Jose, LvG or Moyes could ever muster. The best they ever did was build glorified fireworks. Ole might be onto a spaceship.

I think that celebrating this season is a bit over the top, but I would lie if I said that I wasn't delighted when Bruno put the ball in the net essentially confirming our qualification in UCL. It was extremely important that we get UCL, for many reasons including financial, prestige and signings.

United should always target winning trophies, but that was not realistic for this season (the league trophy). It was not going to happen (and it won't happen next season too), so the season was always to build the team for the next season, and show progress. While I am not particularly happy on how this happened, and think that our qualification in UCL happened to a large degree cause Chelsea and Spurs were worse than us, at the end of the day, the results are those that matter most, and we got the result we needed. Of course, 66 points won't be enough next season, but we would have gotten more points if Bruno joined in the summer. With new reinforcements, I think that this squad has every chance on reaching 80+ points next season, which is what we can realistically expect and target.

So not much time for celebration, but at the end of the day it was job done, and if we win Europa, it would probably be the best season since SAF left (otherwise I would say it is joined third with LVG's first season). Not great, but the minimum requirements totally satisfied, played some decent football here and there, and I am more excited for our attacking trio than I was for any since Ronaldo-Rooney-Tevez. I think that the next season is gonna be quite better, though likely short of challenging for the two big trophies.

Le Red said:

This is a very important reminder. Our record against the top 4 was brilliant, and proved Solskjaer (considered a clueless clown by a relevant section of our crowd) can outbest the likes of Ped Cashiola.
Squad depth and good fitness will lead to better results against low/mid table. Keep the record against the top 6 and we have a shot at the title if Liverpool or City don't have another freak season.

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This is why I was never in favour of appointing Moyes and more recently Poch - Moyes's record in the crunch games for Everton was poor, it tells a lot about a manager. Ole's has been pretty good so far bar Chelsea last week.

I think also the points haul since the return of players from injury and not having to play Lingard/Pierrea in midfield is of significance. I would have more sympathy for the sentiment expressed by the OP if we finished with 66 points had Bruno been here all season and had we not missed Pogba, Rashford, Mctominay and Matic for large chunks of the season. Just look at how poor City's title defence has been this season due to missing Laporte and Sane. If pool were without Van Dyke and Mane for all of next season, they would finish with around 75 points, does that mean Klopp should be called a crap manager? Of course not.

If we sign Sancho and do ok injury wise, I expect nothing less than 85 points next season. I do however think the form of DDG is Ole's biggest concern going into next season. It must be addressed.