SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

oates

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Does a mask have any additional value in light of this basic human right?

It disproportionally restricts it, hence the rule shouldn't exist.
It does! It can also prevent flies entering!

Hey it's your government setting the R&Rs, if everyone decides to interpret them to their own satisfaction how can you guarantee that someone else might not interpret them to a degree that you disagree with and feel complies with your safety? Once you allow everyone free movement to decide what is sensible for themselves you might as well do away with go'mint.
 

oates

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No, but that’s not the point. I’m responding to somebody suggesting it’s not a basic human right.
I'm being flippant but see my answer above.
 

RobinLFC

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Hey it's your government setting the R&Rs, if everyone decides to interpret them to their own satisfaction how can you guarantee that someone else might interpret them to a degree that you disagree with and feel complies with your safety? Once you allow everyone free movement to decide what is sensible for themselves you might as well do away with go'mint.
This is what I'm saying the whole time - if you're gonna impose stupid rules which clearly make no sense, that is gonna lead to people interpreting them how they like. It's something you create yourself as a government.

Let's just not create rules which are contradictory to what our own experts and the WHO have previously stated and I'm sure that almost all our citizens will gladly follow them.
 

oates

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This is what I'm saying the whole time - if you're gonna impose stupid rules which clearly make no sense, that is gonna lead to people interpreting them how they like. It's something you create yourself as a government.

Let's just not create rules which are contradictory to what our own experts and the WHO have previously stated and I'm sure that almost all our citizens will gladly follow them.
Which is what you are doing and others will do the same but still at the same time wearing a mask does not impinge on your human right to walk in the woods, if thats the one you are going to use. We've already seen plenty of people trying to walk into Walmart and try to tell security and management what their human rights are.
 

RobinLFC

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Which is what you are doing and others will do the same but still at the same time wearing a mask does not impinge on your human right to walk in the woods, if thats the one you are going to use. We've already seen plenty of people trying to walk into Walmart and try to tell security and management what their human rights are.
You can't run with a mask, and it's unhealthy to do so to boot.

As for your Walmart comparison, apples and oranges. I wear a mask in every store, supermarket, city center street, pub or whatever.
 

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I really hope we don't see a second wave, or a third wave, or more. The issue though is that what tends to happen is that you get a small increase over a period of time but it has the potential to explode exponentially again very quickly. There are warning signs in some countries that this exponential growth could occur again (though with continued social distancing, etc. hopefully they won't).
VE Day, Protests, Retail re-opening, Pubs re-opening. All had the same rhetoric of people proclaiming that a second wave was incoming. The original point was about the governments incentive for pubs/restaurants was going to cause a second wave. Given it's current position I don't think it will off this scheme.
 

Pogue Mahone

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This is what I'm saying the whole time - if you're gonna impose stupid rules which clearly make no sense, that is gonna lead to people interpreting them how they like. It's something you create yourself as a government.

Let's just not create rules which are contradictory to what our own experts and the WHO have previously stated and I'm sure that almost all our citizens will gladly follow them.
Experts and the WHO contradict each other and change their recommendations all the time. Second guessing everything you’re asked to do doesn’t help anyone. It just adds to the confusion. Best thing for all of us to is exactly what we’re told.
 

oates

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You can't run with a mask, and it's unhealthy to do so to boot.

As for your Walmart comparison, apples and oranges. I wear a mask in every store, supermarket, city center street, pub or whatever.
I'm not up on European Human Rights Courts latest decision on running.

It's not apples and oranges, it's different people doing what you are and that is determining what their human rights are not to wear a mask. Which is what will happen in Belgium once people start deciding how the rules apply to them.
 

RobinLFC

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Experts and the WHO contradict each other and change their recommendations all the time. Second guessing everything you’re asked to do doesn’t help anyone. It just adds to the confusion. Best thing for all of us to is exactly what we’re told.
I was of the exact same opinion until our new rules yesterday. At some point you have to become critical about what your government is asking of you.
 

Pogue Mahone

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You can't run with a mask, and it's unhealthy to do so to boot.

As for your Walmart comparison, apples and oranges. I wear a mask in every store, supermarket, city center street, pub or whatever.
Nonsense.

Also. I did 15 minutes HIIT on a treadmill last night wearing a mask. It takes a bit of getting used to but it’s not that difficult. Elite athlete sometimes train with devices on their face that restrict airflow, to mimic high altitude training. Just think of it as a very mild version of that.
 

F-Red

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Nonsense.

Also. I did 15 minutes HIIT on a treadmill last night wearing a mask. It takes a bit of getting used to but it’s not that difficult. Elite athlete sometimes train with devices on their face that restrict airflow, to mimic high altitude training. Just think of it as a very mild version of that.
Agreed. VO2 max requires a form of face mask to perform.
 

acnumber9

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Experts and the WHO contradict each other and change their recommendations all the time. Second guessing everything you’re asked to do doesn’t help anyone. It just adds to the confusion. Best thing for all of us to is exactly what we’re told.
Is that really the best thing though? The Government’s current advice is if you’re 2 metres from somebody confirmed to have Covid then it doesn’t matter unless it’s for 15 minutes or more.
 

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I found it so unbelievably cringe worthy on the news last night when they interviewed people in Spain and they said (paraphrasing) "if we knew we would have to quarentine we wouldn't have gone".

I'm not in the train of thought that people are selfish for travelling (the economy needs to kick start again and that includes the tourism industry) but anyone who does go should accept that it's a possibility they may have to quarentine, especially in Spain where I imagine atleast half the British tourists went.
 

RobinLFC

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Nonsense.

Also. I did 15 minutes HIIT on a treadmill last night wearing a mask. It takes a bit of getting used to but it’s not that difficult. Elite athlete sometimes train with devices on their face that restrict airflow, to mimic high altitude training. Just think of it as a very mild version of that.
Confirmed less than 2 hours ago by an exercise physiologist that it's not dangerous but that it negatively affects your performances up to 3%. You also blow your own CO² back in your face and your body temperature goes even higher than normal during extreme efforts. As for your comparison with "devices on your face", I can only laugh.
 

Mr Pigeon

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You can't run with a mask, and it's unhealthy to do so to boot.

As for your Walmart comparison, apples and oranges. I wear a mask in every store, supermarket, city center street, pub or whatever.
You might be on to something here. Darth Vader didn't run once in the entire trilogy and he had the grandest of masks. Luke didn't have a mask and he ran quite a few times. Obi Wan didn't run at all and he didn't wear a mask but that might have been because he was a 63 year old Alec Guinness.

This brings me on to my main point though, and it's hopefully one that you and @oates can clear up between the two of you.

If the purpose of the mask is to protect others rather than yourself, regardless of the environment, then isn't it implied that without wearing a mask you are intentionally putting others at risk? Isn't it best to wear one as often as possible to avoid thinking of it as optional protection rather than essential? And, if that's the case, then why didn't Mace Windu sense Anakin's betrayal?
 

RobinLFC

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Is that really the best thing though? The Government’s current advice is if you’re 2 metres from somebody confirmed to have Covid then it doesn’t matter unless it’s for 15 minutes or more.
There's zero possibility of transmission if you cross someone while running because the contact time is too low, let alone if you're easily able to social distance while doing so.
 

RobinLFC

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If the purpose of the mask is to protect others rather than yourself, regardless of the environment, then isn't implied that without wearing a mask you are intentionally putting others at risk?
See my previous post. If someone can show me that I put someone, anyone, at risk by not wearing one whilst running alone, I will do so without hesitation.
 

Mr Pigeon

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See my previous post. If someone can show me that I put someone, anyone, at risk by not wearing one whilst running alone, I will do so without hesitation.
Read my entire post please. It's important.
 

oates

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You might be on to something here. Darth Vader didn't run once in the entire trilogy and he had the grandest of masks. Luke didn't have a mask and he ran quite a few times. Obi Wan didn't run at all and he didn't wear a mask but that might have been because he was a 63 year old Alec Guinness.

This brings me on to my main point though, and it's hopefully one that you and @oates can clear up between the two of you.

If the purpose of the mask is to protect others rather than yourself, regardless of the environment, then isn't it implied that without wearing a mask you are intentionally putting others at risk? Isn't it best to wear one as often as possible to avoid thinking of it as optional protection rather than essential? And, if that's the case, then why didn't Mace Windu sense Anakin's betrayal?
I don't know who Mace Windy is. Someone I trust told me those prequel films were pure arse so no, I can't help @RobinLFC out with this so called help of yours.
 

redshaw

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UK 119 deaths and 581 cases

Some of these deaths might be due to counting people that tested positive months ago. No doubt the 65k excess deaths is there to stay but now deaths are below national average, the lowish number currently might be inflated somewhat with just normal deaths being included.


Spain has gone to 2k a day cases.
 

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You might be on to something here. Darth Vader didn't run once in the entire trilogy and he had the grandest of masks. Luke didn't have a mask and he ran quite a few times. Obi Wan didn't run at all and he didn't wear a mask but that might have been because he was a 63 year old Alec Guinness.

This brings me on to my main point though, and it's hopefully one that you and @oates can clear up between the two of you.

If the purpose of the mask is to protect others rather than yourself, regardless of the environment, then isn't it implied that without wearing a mask you are intentionally putting others at risk? Isn't it best to wear one as often as possible to avoid thinking of it as optional protection rather than essential? And, if that's the case, then why didn't Mace Windu sense Anakin's betrayal?
This makes me want to rewatch TFA as I am pretty sure that there is at least one scene of Kylo Ren running with his mask on.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Confirmed less than 2 hours ago by an exercise physiologist that it's not dangerous but that it negatively affects your performances up to 3%. You also blow your own CO² back in your face and your body temperature goes even higher than normal during extreme efforts. As for your comparison with "devices on your face", I can only laugh.
Not dangerous and not bad for your health. My point exactly.

Slightly higher body temperature and up to 3% drop off in performance. How will you cope?!
 

RobinLFC

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@RobinLFC I agree that wearing a mask to jog in the woods is overkill, by the way. Can’t see the point in that scenario. And I would be amazed if anyone got prosecuted. But I can understand why the government makes “one size fits all” guidance.
Me too. I agree with "just follow the rules and don't moan about it so much, it's for the greater good" approach 100%. But if you're in this particular situation, it's just infuriating. We are 50km away from Antwerp with its serious outbreak, surrounding villages here are without an infection for 10-14 days. Yet we're not allowed outside without a mask, while neighboring cities to Antwerp are not (further) restricted as is our province, just because they fall into another jurisdiction. As if the virus stops at province borders... Our policy makers are failing big time again imo for the second time in this crisis, both on national and regional level. But it is what it is, hopefully we see some results by mid-August.
 

djembatheking

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You might be on to something here. Darth Vader didn't run once in the entire trilogy and he had the grandest of masks. Luke didn't have a mask and he ran quite a few times. Obi Wan didn't run at all and he didn't wear a mask but that might have been because he was a 63 year old Alec Guinness.

This brings me on to my main point though, and it's hopefully one that you and @oates can clear up between the two of you.

If the purpose of the mask is to protect others rather than yourself, regardless of the environment, then isn't it implied that without wearing a mask you are intentionally putting others at risk? Isn't it best to wear one as often as possible to avoid thinking of it as optional protection rather than essential? And, if that's the case, then why didn't Mace Windu sense Anakin's betrayal?
These guys know the score.

 

Mr Pigeon

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Me too. I agree with "just follow the rules and don't moan about it so much, it's for the greater good" approach 100%. But if you're in this particular situation, it's just infuriating. We are 50km away from Antwerp with its serious outbreak, surrounding villages here are without an infection for 10-14 days. Yet we're not allowed outside without a mask, while neighboring cities to Antwerp are not (further) restricted as is our province, just because they fall into another jurisdiction. As if the virus stops at province borders... Our policy makers are failing big time again imo for the second time in this crisis, both on national and regional level. But it is what it is, hopefully we see some results by mid-August.
To be honest I don't see much problem with not wearing a mask in the middle of the woods when no one else is around either, but I also understand that it's good to be in the habit of wearing one whenever I'm out and about - just so it becomes second nature.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Outbreak modelling published by the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine (LSHTM) shows that quarantining people for eight days on arrival from the EU and testing them on day seven, with a 24-hour turnaround in test results, could reduce the number of infectious people re-entering the community by 94%, compared with no quarantine or testing.

All approaches under which travellers were quarantined for at least five days, the typical incubation period for the virus, and released subject to a negative test were “highly effective”, the models showed. For example, testing people on day five of quarantine and releasing them on day six if the results were negative cut the potential for transmission by 88%.
@Brwned
 

Volumiza

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Confirmed less than 2 hours ago by an exercise physiologist that it's not dangerous but that it negatively affects your performances up to 3%
If you’re Mo Farah that 3% may matter but to any of us on here it means virtually feck all.

Covid will affect your performance many times that. My friends parents cannot even make it to the top of their garden without gasping for air ... that is nearly 13 weeks after leaving intensive care.
 

RedFish

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If you’re Mo Farah that 3% may matter but to any of us on here it means virtually feck all.

Covid will affect your performance many times that. My friends parents cannot even make it to the top of their garden without gasping for air ... that is nearly 13 weeks after leaving intensive care.
That's quite an eye opener. Glad they're ok though. People need to be vigilant....
 

Volumiza

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That's quite an eye opener. Glad they're ok though. People need to be vigilant....
It is, Covid landed very close to me very early on and has been my marker for this virus the whole time. These were people I’ve been close to for over 30 years and their family has been hit very hard because of it.

They could well be facing permanent fibrosis of the lungs.
 

Mr Pigeon

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It is, Covid landed very close to me very early on and has been my marker for this virus the whole time. These were people I’ve been close to for over 30 years and their family has been hit very hard because of it.

They could well be facing permanent fibrosis of the lungs.
It's experiences like this that make me cringe when people only quote death rates. This isn't something that you just get over if you survive.
 

Volumiza

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It's experiences like this that make me cringe when people only quote death rates. This isn't something that you just get over if you survive.
Absolutely. I haven’t changed my opinion on this virus once since the very beginning ... I don’t want to catch the fecker if possible.

I’m not hiding under my kitchen table, quivering or anything but I see no issue with being careful and expecting everyone around me to behave the same.
 

Pogue Mahone

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It's experiences like this that make me cringe when people only quote death rates. This isn't something that you just get over if you survive.
To be fair, some people do. Just like some people don’t get sick at all. I know two people who had the virus. One is absolutely 100% now, a month after he tested positive. The other is still quite shook, two months later. The whole thing is a roll of the dice.
 

Wibble

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See my previous post. If someone can show me that I put someone, anyone, at risk by not wearing one whilst running alone, I will do so without hesitation.
Given that we don't know what viral load is required to infect you with Covid how would the level of proof you require be available?

We do know that there is a potential for virus particles to spread far further when running and that SARS-CoV-2 is very infectious so why not apply the precautionary principle, which is also the responsible thing to do?

A 3% lowering of performance is feck all. Even if it is total bullshit, and we don't know this yet, not complying with advice in general will be a major driver of the second wave especially if people start to decide for themselves to ignore the bits of the advice that they find inconvenient.

If you are running somewhere so remote that you don't encounter anyone how will anyone know if you wearing a mask or not?
 
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Wibble

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To be fair, some people do. Just like some people don’t get sick at all. I know two people who had the virus. One is absolutely 100% now, a month after he tested positive. The other is still quite shook, two months later. The whole thing is a roll of the dice.
It also looks like if you get it badly enough to be hospitalised then the vast majority suffer long term problems even when they have "recovered".

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...-sydney-hospital-in-march-still-have-symptoms
 

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The number of people in the Netherlands who have died from the effects of the coronavirus is 50 to 100 percent higher than the official figures from RIVM (National Institute for Public Health and the Environment). This is evident from new research published Wednesday by the Central Bureau of Statistics (CBS).

Statistics Netherlands has used a new method to estimate the excess mortality during the corona pandemic. In the first eleven weeks of the pandemic, from March 9 to May 24, 10,164 people died of Covid-19 by that method. However, uncertainty must be taken into account, according to Statistics Netherlands. As a result, the number of deceased can be higher or lower and can vary between 8,593 and 11,691. That means that in addition to every 10 registered deaths, between 5 and 10 people died from corona that were not registered.

According to the most recent figures from RIVM, up to and including 28 July 6,145 people in the Netherlands have died of the coronavirus.

In the Netherlands, where only positively tested deceased persons are registered as corona deaths, the estimated death rate according to the CBS is "a good and important way to provide some information about the number of deaths by Covid-19."
Source: belgian newspapers. I would imagine this would be the same in a lot of other countries too, and puts the number of deaths in Belgium in comparison to Holland in perspective.
 

Brwned

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Interesting. Maybe something similar is on the cards then, and this might be the political cover they need. 5-8 days is still a bit beyond reasonable for the average person though so it'll depend on whether the govt. want to invest any more money into it.
 

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We actually ban all non-Hongkongers from immigration. For Hongkongers, there are two scenarios:
  • If he arrives in the morning, he will be sent to a sample collection centre nearby and the sample will be tested on the same day. He will stay in that centre until the result is released.
  • If he arrives late, he will leave a sample at the sample collection centre and will be sent directly to a designated hotel until the result is released.
The most important thing is, he still has to undergo compulsory home quarantine for 14 days even if tested negative, and this is monitored by a bracelet.
im flying back home to HK tomorrow and apparently the wait times are 15 hours if you arrive in the morning.
That sucks after a 12h flight but has been totally working so far.
The growing list of exceptions caused this bad third wave.
 
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We do know that there is a potential for virus particles to spread far further when running and that SARS-CoV-2 is very infectious so why not apply the precautionary principle, which is also the responsible thing to do?
Running crews started up a couple of months back in the nordics, there’s no evidence whatsoever from Covid-19 or other upper respiratory viruses that running outdoors represents any real risk.
Making out it’s any risk is utter garbage, has zero scientific basis and likely does more damage than good as people will distrust this kind of information. Scaremongering is a stupid way of getting people to take restrictions seriously.
 
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