Keir Starmer Labour Leader

BobbyManc

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Good point from Bastani who can be hit and miss. Tories have increased their vote share in every election since 1997 I believe. That’s incredible, really. Labour suffers because too many people are wedded to that same year and think Blair stumbled upon some magical formula for winning and all that has to be done is to revive it and you’ll be sorted.

The party needs to start taking a much more proactive and bold approach to policy, or else it risks conceding all ground to the Tories and then having to debate it on terms not set by itself. That’s a recipe for electoral irrelevance.
 

Fluctuation0161

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Shamwow said:
Starmer now for some reason demanding that Sturgeon condemn Alex Salmond for hosting an RT show - despite the fact that he's not an SNP member and despite the fact that she already publicly condemned him 3 years ago.
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if this is his attempt to win back Scotland he needs to do better.
 

Fluctuation0161

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BobbyManc said:
He has such an unhealthy obsession with it, you get the impression he rubs his hands with glee every time he hears another story of alleged Jewish suffering. It’s a very perverse fixation. I hate the Tory party, but I’d genuinely be delighted if a credible independent body investigated them, say for Islamophobia, and found the problem was not as severe and systemic as it appears. That should be welcomed, not lamented that a chance to score a political point has gone.
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Totally agree. I don't need to read Guido. I just read his posts.
 

Kaos

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BobbyManc said:

Good point from Bastani who can be hit and miss. Tories have increased their vote share in every election since 1997 I believe. That’s incredible, really. Labour suffers because too many people are wedded to that same year and think Blair stumbled upon some magical formula for winning and all that has to be done is to revive it and you’ll be sorted.

The party needs to start taking a much more proactive and bold approach to policy, or else it risks conceding all ground to the Tories and then having to debate it on terms not set by itself. That’s a recipe for electoral irrelevance.
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This is nonsense IMO.

Look at the Tory manifesto for the last couple of elections - absolutely nothing of substance. Their entire platform was that of fear-mongering, provoking divisive politics, and focusing the bulk of their messaging on discrediting/smearing the opposition than actually offering a plan or outlook for the future that goes beyond 'gettin brexit dun'. The current PM even resorted to hiding in a fridge to avoid an scrutiny over his electoral platform.

Granted they've ridden the wave of populism that's tainted global politics over the last 5 or so, but beyond that I don't see how they've offered anything new.

Labour actually put forward some radical policy suggestions in the last couple of elections. But the narrative focused on their leader being this alleged anti-British, pro-IRA/Hamas anti-semite that wants to nationalise our nans.
 

Kentonio

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BobbyManc said:

Good point from Bastani who can be hit and miss. Tories have increased their vote share in every election since 1997 I believe. That’s incredible, really. Labour suffers because too many people are wedded to that same year and think Blair stumbled upon some magical formula for winning and all that has to be done is to revive it and you’ll be sorted.

The party needs to start taking a much more proactive and bold approach to policy, or else it risks conceding all ground to the Tories and then having to debate it on terms not set by itself. That’s a recipe for electoral irrelevance.
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Not really a good point, considering Labour haven't really followed the Blair formula since Blair/Brown. They lost with Brown because the UK was sick of them after a decade in power and all the Iraq stuff, Milliband was a charisma-less joke, then we had Corbyn who tried to go full left.
 

BobbyManc

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Kaos said:
This is nonsense IMO.

Look at the Tory manifesto for the last couple of elections - absolutely nothing of substance. Their entire platform was that of fear-mongering, provoking divisive politics, and focusing the bulk of their messaging on discrediting/smearing the opposition than actually offering a plan or outlook for the future that goes beyond 'gettin brexit dun'. The current PM even resorted to hiding in a fridge to avoid an scrutiny over his electoral platform.

Granted they've ridden the wave of populism that's tainted global politics over the last 5 or so, but beyond that I don't see how they've offered anything new.

Labour actually put forward some radical policy suggestions in the last couple of elections. But the narrative focused on their leader being this alleged anti-British, pro-IRA/Hamas anti-semite that wants to nationalise our nans.
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I have no respect for the Tory party but I think that’s a skewed way of looking at it. There’s a clear shift from all of its leaders I’d say. Most recently Johnson in 2019 moved leftwards economically, made Brexit the flagship, anti-austerity message, fund NHS etc. Very distinct break from what went before him, and it resonated.

F-Red said:
Wasn't that the manifesto for the last election? I don't think it resonated well.
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Are you suggesting only left-wing politics can be ‘bold’ and ‘proactive’?
 

Maticmaker

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All Starmer has to do is follow Joe Biden's lead (yes Biden), keep smiling, keep your mouth shut, put one foot in front of the other when walking and let your opponent hang himself in public on the Covid-19 gallows... don't do anything, let Boris wander off into Noddy land... "a free bike for everyone who gives up their car", what an offer, what an excellent PM he makes !!
 

BobbyManc

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Kentonio said:
Not really a good point, considering Labour haven't really followed the Blair formula since Blair/Brown. They lost with Brown because the UK was sick of them after a decade in power and all the Iraq stuff, Milliband was a charisma-less joke, then we had Corbyn who tried to go full left.
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That’s precisely the point. Blairism/Third Way/New Labour was no longer going to win an election, that was clear. The downwards trend from ‘97 onwards is clear. The Red Wall and Scotland was not lost in a day, it’s a process that has it roots under Blair. The idea returning to those roots will work is groundless.
 

Kentonio

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BobbyManc said:
That’s precisely the point. Blairism/Third Way/New Labour was no longer going to win an election, that was clear. The downwards trend from ‘97 onwards is clear. The Red Wall and Scotland was not lost in a day, it’s a process that has it roots under Blair. The idea returning to those roots will work is groundless.
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You're making some wild assumptions there. Because a Labour government that had been in power became unpopular that doesn't automatically mean you have to radically change course. The Red Wall and Scotland weren't lost in a day no, but how exactly has trying to win them back by pivoting left gone? The Red Wall is probably still recoverable to a degree, but once the SNP took Scotland it was always going to be a huge ask for Labour to just sweep back in and take it back. More fundamentally though (and the real root of all these problems) is what even IS Labour anymore? Who do they actually want to represent? Are they a working class labour unions party, or are they a progressive liberal party, because those two things are not the same, and trying to be the party of both is causing endless clashes (just like it is in the US with the Democrats).
 

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BobbyManc said:
Are you suggesting only left-wing politics can be ‘bold’ and ‘proactive’?
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I'm asking that the last manifesto was in many eyes supposed to be bold and proactive. If it was bold or proactive, then it had no resonance with the electorate.
 

nickm

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BobbyManc said:

Good point from Bastani who can be hit and miss. Tories have increased their vote share in every election since 1997 I believe. That’s incredible, really. Labour suffers because too many people are wedded to that same year and think Blair stumbled upon some magical formula for winning and all that has to be done is to revive it and you’ll be sorted.

The party needs to start taking a much more proactive and bold approach to policy, or else it risks conceding all ground to the Tories and then having to debate it on terms not set by itself. That’s a recipe for electoral irrelevance.
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Well the first Cameron five years was all about the Tories copying the evil Blair playbook. Cameron - Osborne fetished Blairs biography and even had a nickname for him - The Master. So half the Tory "reinvention" was them copying methods invented by a party apparently too feeble to use them itself.

The Tories win because they are pragmatic about power in a way that the likes of Bastani would be (wrongly) ashamed of if Labour took the same approach.
 

BobbyManc

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Kentonio said:
You're making some wild assumptions there. Because a Labour government that had been in power became unpopular that doesn't automatically mean you have to radically change course. The Red Wall and Scotland weren't lost in a day no, but how exactly has trying to win them back by pivoting left gone? The Red Wall is probably still recoverable to a degree, but once the SNP took Scotland it was always going to be a huge ask for Labour to just sweep back in and take it back. More fundamentally though (and the real root of all these problems) is what even IS Labour anymore? Who do they actually want to represent? Are they a working class labour unions party, or are they a progressive liberal party, because those two things are not the same, and trying to be the party of both is causing endless clashes (just like it is in the US with the Democrats).
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There’s no wild assumptions whatsoever, there’s plenty of empirical data to back it up. Well the pivot left in 2017 did see some success and Labour was polling at 40-45% prior to switching to a second referendum, but nobody ever seems capable of an adult discussion about this. It’s just ‘Labour still lost’ and then suddenly the 2019 result becomes very easy to craft sweeping narratives from about left-wing politics.

Your second point is true, that was the trade-off with the Third Way. Liberal, progressive but increasingly became estranged from its working class base. That’s the ultimate dilemma now, winning back the latter without just suffering the same process in reverse with the former. Very tough to answer, but I think at the heart of it will be Labour’s ability to define and control the economic narrative. That can cut across the divide.
 

nickm

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BobbyManc said:
That’s precisely the point. Blairism/Third Way/New Labour was no longer going to win an election, that was clear.
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That is not true. It did win an election but for the Tories. Remember Camerons Heir to Blair
?
 

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BobbyManc said:
There’s no wild assumptions whatsoever, there’s plenty of empirical data to back it up. Well the pivot left in 2017 did see some success and Labour was polling at 40-45% prior to switching to a second referendum, but nobody ever seems capable of an adult discussion about this. It’s just ‘Labour still lost’ and then suddenly the 2019 result becomes very easy to craft sweeping narratives from about left-wing politics.
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Both sides of Labour have good points to their arguments, which is what makes it all so difficult. For me the main lesson of Blair was simply that the UK population really is quite conservative. They like the sound of a lot of left wing ideas, but are too scared to take what they perceive as a big risk. Labour need to start fairly centrist and then move left once they're in power to show its not some huge risk but sensible achievable politics. Just my take on it anyway.

BobbyManc said:
Your second point is true, that was the trade-off with the Third Way. Liberal, progressive but increasingly became estranged from its working class base. That’s the ultimate dilemma now, winning back the latter without just suffering the same process in reverse with the former. Very tough to answer, but I think at the heart of it will be Labour’s ability to define and control the economic narrative. That can cut across the divide.
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We're assuming its actually solvable though, and I'm not sure it is. The priority issues of the two camps just aren't the same even though they occasionally intersect. The UK really needs three competitive parties not two.
 

sun_tzu

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The UK really needs three competitive parties not two.
[/QUOTE]
Difficult with the voting system we have... pr would I think in the long run be a positive transformation of uk politics
 

Fluctuation0161

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sun_tzu said:
Difficult with the voting system we have... pr would I think in the long run be a positive transformation of uk politics
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PR is something I would welcome. Our current system is antiquated and barely fit for purpose. PR would be a step in the right direction.
 

Sweet Square

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Kentonio said:
Sounds crazy to me, but if that's what the scientific advice is then I can't criticize them for the decision. We can't give the right abuse for ignoring scientific advice, and then just ignore it on the left when it suits.
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This post has made me depressed.

Thanks.
 

Untied

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Kentonio said:
Both sides of Labour have good points to their arguments, which is what makes it all so difficult. For me the main lesson of Blair was simply that the UK population really is quite conservative. They like the sound of a lot of left wing ideas, but are too scared to take what they perceive as a big risk. Labour need to start fairly centrist and then move left once they're in power to show its not some huge risk but sensible achievable politics. Just my take on it anyway.

We're assuming its actually solvable though, and I'm not sure it is. The priority issues of the two camps just aren't the same even though they occasionally intersect. The UK really needs three competitive parties not two.
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This isn't true though. Brexit is an enormous risk and definitely not small-c conservative. Nor is it progressive/liberal. And it hasn't been undertaken for left-wing reasons. It's risky, reactionary, populism. But it doesn't cohere with this idea that the British population are naturally averse to risk/conservative.
 

Untied

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Dobba said:
:lol:

Why don't they save time with these interviews and just release the "The teaching unions can go feck themselves" press statement on Sir Keith's laptop?
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Kentonio said:
Sounds crazy to me, but if that's what the scientific advice is then I can't criticize them for the decision. We can't give the right abuse for ignoring scientific advice, and then just ignore it on the left when it suits.
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Royal Society Report released last week:



https://rs-delve.github.io/reports/2020/07/24/balancing-the-risk-of-pupils-returning-to-schools.html
 

Smores

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Kentonio said:
Sounds crazy to me, but if that's what the scientific advice is then I can't criticize them for the decision. We can't give the right abuse for ignoring scientific advice, and then just ignore it on the left when it suits.
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Bit of a trap they've fallen right into there. You can be mindful of the scientific advice and represent the unions concerns at the same time. Children wearing masks in class is madness though, teachers should have the option for certain circumstances i guess.

I think Labour are trying to move away from being linked to the unions which is a real shame. Gotta please the Daily mailers though i guess.
 

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Smores said:
Bit of a trap they've fallen right into there. You can be mindful of the scientific advice and represent the unions concerns at the same time. Children wearing masks in class is madness though, teachers should have the option for certain circumstances i guess.

I think Labour are trying to move away from being linked to the unions which is a real shame. Gotta please the Daily mailers though i guess.
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Of course they are trying to move away from the teaching Unions. See RLB vs Starmer.
 

Untied

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Someone should ask Starmer's Labour if teachers should be wearing face masks in Greater Manchester
 

Untied

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F-Red said:
What, now? They're all on summer holidays.
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Right but you know the point I'm making. On the same day Labour are saying that we don't want teachers and adults in schools to wear masks, large parts of the country including Greater Manchester are having localised lockdowns. I'm sure everything is going to look much better in 4-5 weeks.
 
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