Chelsea 2020/21 - General discussion

WeePat · Aug 4, 2020

Dancfc said:
He didn't get dropped which was part of his problem, he was persisted with for the next month or so, was responsible for the winning goals we conceded at OT, The Ethiad and was a mess at home to Spurs.

He should have been taken out of the firing line for a while, constantly being played while he was costing us games was doing no one any favours.

Upon reflection, you're right. I do remember thinking he needed to be allowed to play through his wobbly form, which to be fair Conte tried to do. Once he dropped him though, it over for him. He saw little to no consistent game time until this season.

I personally don't see a huge difference between Christensen and Zouma, or even Tomori and Rudiger, if we're being completely honest. They're all at a very similar level. Selling one, to make way for an actual undisputed first choice CB seems like the right thing to do. Who to sell, for me, depends on who can fetch the most money. If it's Christensen or Zouma, then so be it.

WeePat · Aug 4, 2020

TheMagicFoolBus said:
Christensen is an odd one. Based on the stats and the eye test, he seems to be above average at just about everything a CB needs (especially on the ball where he's genuinely excellent). His problem is he is almost guaranteed to make a catastrophic error or brainfart at least once a match - this is exacerbated by a tendency to shrink from big moments and an utter lack of consistency. My take is that he's more or less actually what the media thought David Luiz was when he arrived in England.

Overall though I think he's better than Rudiger and would prefer to keep him in a vacuum. That said, Rudiger may be important to help our incoming German(s) settle (especially Werner as they're friends from their time at Stuttgart), Christensen would likely fetch a higher price, and I think between the two Rudiger is better suited to a role off the bench. For me Zouma is the one to hold onto.

If I was new to football, and just watched Chelsea games for a season without knowing who is who, and I read the bold part, I literally wouldn't know who you're referring to, because it could apply to any of the 4 CB's. Zouma is probably the best at trying to persevere through difficult moments, but even he's prone to the same shortcomings as the others.

ThierryFabregas · Aug 4, 2020

What do Chelsea fans think or Willian's strengths and weaknesses? Also can he play in midfield or is he limited to the wing?

tomaldinho1 · Aug 4, 2020

If Lampard uses Kante as he should be used and forsakes a bit of his possession/attacking philosophy for the pragmatism of having a limited but world class DM & they sort out the keeper situation I think they'll finish pretty close to whoever wins the league. Add in if they can find a top LB and it's a nice balance/decently deep squad; something like the below would have enough physicality but also remain very attacking in my opinion (I'm assuming Jorginho is sold).

Pulisic ------ Werner ------ Ziyech
------ Loftus Cheek---Kovacic----
------------------- Kante -----------------
LB -- Rudiger- -- Zouma -- James
------------------- GK ----------------------

adexkola · Aug 4, 2020

I want to ban the word "pragmatism" so bad.

Dancfc · Aug 4, 2020

ThierryFabregas said:
What do Chelsea fans think or Willian's strengths and weaknesses? Also can he play in midfield or is he limited to the wing?

He could at a push play #10 in a 4231, but CM or wingback forget it.

Will be interesting to see how Arteta uses him and whether it will be at the expense of Saka or Pepe.

TheMagicFoolBus · Aug 4, 2020

ThierryFabregas said:
What do Chelsea fans think or Willian's strengths and weaknesses? Also can he play in midfield or is he limited to the wing?

He's a winger that likes to roam. 100% cannot be played deeper in midfield.

Strengths: He's generally good at ball retention and has good work rates. Decent but overrated at direct free kicks (certainly worse than Pepe or Lacazette at Arsenal; he'd fallen well behind Mount and Alonso at Chelsea); excellent penalty taker. His biggest strength is his ability to accelerate instantly & change direction with a drop of the shoulder to create space for a shot. Good at getting in behind and finding teammates with cut-backs generally.

Weaknesses: Baffling decision-making at times has held him back for his entire Chelsea career - for me he's not a player I want leading breaks (certainly Hazard was miles better and at this point Pulisic is too). He's a scorer of great goals rather than being a great goal-scorer - his movement in the box is poor and he has a maddening tendency to flub 1v1 chances. He also has an appalling delivery from dead balls - you should not under any circumstances allow him near corners or FKs from the wing.

WeePat · Aug 4, 2020

ThierryFabregas said:
What do Chelsea fans think or Willian's strengths and weaknesses? Also can he play in midfield or is he limited to the wing?

Oh boy.

The start of a fraught relationship.

He hasn't played in the middle much for Chelsea. He's played almost exclusively as a right sided forward during the entire 7 years at the club. There was a time when some felt his best position was actually on the left but given a certain someone was busy being the best player in the league in that position, he had to settle for playing on the right.

Strengths ;

He's very quick
Almost unstoppable in transition
He works relatively hard and is excellent winning the ball back
Set pieces - excellent penalty taker, very good freekick taker.
He's relatively injury free (but who knows if that'll continue once the Arsenal medical team get their hands on him )
He's best mates with Luiz, they own a restaurant in London together.

Weaknesses;

His decision making is awful (when he gets it right, it's beautiful to watch, but it's not not often, certainly not a week in week out thing)
He scores very little (he's averaged 9 goals a season over 7 years)
He loses the ball often (as a result of trying to dribble or play a risky pass, which he isn't particularly good at)
He tends to sulk if he isn't considered part of the first choice group (granted, it could be different this time, if Arteta sets the expectations from the start).
He once tried to sign for Spurs, so we can both consider that to be a stain on his character.

The first 3 points in his strengths are likely to make you leap to his defence when people are criticising him for the first 3 points in his weaknesses. He has divided our fanbase for the last 7 years literally more than any other player in that period.

TheMagicFoolBus · Aug 4, 2020

WeePat said:
If I was new to football, and just watched Chelsea games for a season without knowing who is who, and I read the bold part, I literally wouldn't know who you're referring to, because it could apply to any of the 4 CB's. Zouma is probably the best at trying to persevere through difficult moments, but even he's prone to the same shortcomings as the others.

Hah that's a good point actually! Can't argue with you there. I would say that AC is ahead of the bunch on the ball though, which is just about the one positive people had to say about Luiz when he arrived.

Dancfc · Aug 4, 2020

WeePat said:
Upon reflection, you're right. I do remember thinking he needed to be allowed to play through his wobbly form, which to be fair Conte tried to do. Once he dropped him though, it over for him. He saw little to no consistent game time until this season.

I personally don't see a huge difference between Christensen and Zouma, or even Tomori and Rudiger, if we're being completely honest. They're all at a very similar level. Selling one, to make way for an actual undisputed first choice CB seems like the right thing to do. Who to sell, for me, depends on who can fetch the most money. If it's Christensen or Zouma, then so be it.

I'm inclined to give AC one last chance if/when we get a leader/reader type CB to help guide him through games, he was arguably the best young CB in the world when he returned to us and upto Barca gate probably our best full stop. I'd like to see if we can somehow coax that version back out of him with more stable teammates, even now we see it now and again (City at home for example).

Rudi for me should be only a squad player, i said as much even when he was flavour of the month, far too erratic to be a starter for a title winning team (which is out ultimate aim) unless he has someone insanely good as his partner.

WeePat · Aug 4, 2020

TheMagicFoolBus said:
Hah that's a good point actually! Can't argue with you there. I would say that AC is ahead of the bunch on the ball though, which is just about the one positive people had to say about Luiz when he arrived.

In an ideal world, we'd sell no central defenders this summer. Buy new CB. Send Tomori on loan because he isn't benefiting from the sitting on the bench. Bring him back next summer, and sell Rudiger.

WeePat · Aug 4, 2020

Dancfc said:
I'm inclined to give AC one last chance if/when we get a leader/reader type CB to help guide him through games, he was arguably the best young CB in the world when he returned to us and upto Barca gate probably our best full stop. I'd like to see if we can somehow coax that version back out of him with more stable teammates, even now we see it now and again (City at home for example).

Rudi for me should be only a squad player, i said as much even when he was flavour of the month, far too erratic to be a starter for a title winning team (which is out ultimate aim) unless he has someone insanely good as his partner.

Yeah, I'd agree with all of that.

Pow · Aug 4, 2020

Ac is the last person i want in the defence. His passing is overrated hes weak and hes shit in the air. His performance at city is overblown cause he didnt have to mark anyone then got bullied by benteke. Should be the first cb out the door.

Mount's Goatieson · Aug 4, 2020

The Sergio Reguilon thing seems to be picking up pace (Werner style). Reports say we are at an “advanced stage” in negotiations with Real. Deal could be Kovacic-like loan to buy or straight transfer at €20m.
Anyone with an extensive knowledge on the guy, heard good things so far.

WeePat · Aug 4, 2020

Mount's Goatieson said:
The Sergio Reguilon thing seems to be picking up pace (Werner style). Reports say we are at an “advanced stage” in negotiations with Real. Deal could be Kovacic-like loan to buy or straight transfer at €20m.
Anyone with an extensive knowledge on the guy, heard good things so far.

No clue how good he is, but having checked out his youtube comps, he seems quick, a good tackler and he can dribble but he looks incredibly one-footed, and quite small (this almost reads like exact description of Emerson). It's hard to find full backs who have the desired blend of attacking ability and defensive solidity. I don't know if this guy is that. It's hard to tell from just comp videos.

Some Real Madrid fans claim he's been one the top LB's in La Liga this season. He appears to be a cheap alternative to Chilwell.

@giorno thoughts?

duffer · Aug 4, 2020

WeePat said:
Some Real Madrid fans claim he's been one the top LB's in La Liga this season. He appears to be a cheap alternative to Chilwell.

@giorno thoughts?

He's an academy product and one of the best (stat-wise) left backs in the league. Any idea why they'd sell him for 20 million euros?

WeePat · Aug 4, 2020

duffer said:
He's an academy product and one of the best (stat-wise) left backs in the league. Any idea why they'd sell him for 20 million euros?

No clue. Real fans appear equally perplexed at the low price. He doesn't appear to have a path to the first team with Mendy and Marcelo there. He could be pushing for a move. He changed his agent to Kia Joorbichian apparently.

izec · Aug 4, 2020

If they get Havertz in + GK/CB/LB, they will be excellent. Could potentially put in a title challenge for some period of the season, depending on Liverpool/City. I think they will finish comfortably in the top 4 and play some nice football for large parts of the season at least. That is where i see ourselves as well. Best to wait and see how the transfer window plays out for all clubs, because i think that can make some huge difference and expectations will be set partially based on that.

charlenefan · Aug 4, 2020

TheMagicFoolBus said:
Christensen is an odd one. Based on the stats and the eye test, he seems to be above average at just about everything a CB needs (especially on the ball where he's genuinely excellent). His problem is he is almost guaranteed to make a catastrophic error or brainfart at least once a match - this is exacerbated by a tendency to shrink from big moments and an utter lack of consistency. My take is that he's more or less actually what the media thought David Luiz was when he arrived in England.

Overall though I think he's better than Rudiger and would prefer to keep him in a vacuum. That said, Rudiger may be important to help our incoming German(s) settle (especially Werner as they're friends from their time at Stuttgart), Christensen would likely fetch a higher price, and I think between the two Rudiger is better suited to a role off the bench. For me Zouma is the one to hold onto.

The Chelsea CB issue is worse than I thought if Zouma is your best one

MadMike · Aug 4, 2020

adexkola said:
I want to ban the word "pragmatism" so bad.

You need to become pragmatic and accept others will use.

edcunited1878 · Aug 4, 2020

Chelsea must change their shape in order to have a proper title challenge. Do they have three central midfielders with one defensive central mid in Jorginho, Kante, or Kovacic or do they have two central mids that really work together and solidify the midfield and support the CBs while their fullbacks and forward players press and attack at will?

Plus, Chelsea will have to learn what is their best way to play with specific players such as Werner, Pulisic, Ziyech, Mount, and potentially Havertz.

But hey, let's all celebrate Chelsea's youth movement....oh wait.

MadMike · Aug 4, 2020

I think the big challenge for Lampard and Chelsea is that apart from having to sort out a problematic defence (probably incl. the GK) out, he also needed to refresh his attack this summer with certain players getting on.

That means he either won't get it all done in one summer, or he'll have a squad that might get time to gel and find its feet with lots of players that are new not only to the team but also the league. 2/3 of his likely starting forwards are new and he hasn't even begun to re-shape the defence yet.

It won't be an easy task. But I can certainly see where Chelsea fan optimism is coming from. Lampard seems to be doing good work so far and the names coming in are pretty exciting.

njred · Aug 4, 2020

Chelsea are going to good enough to have a lock on 3rd and challenge or even pip City for 2nd.

TheReligion · Aug 4, 2020

njred said:
Chelsea are going to good enough to have a lock on 3rd and challenge or even pip City for 2nd.

Will Klopp keep his job getting 4th?

TheReligion · Aug 4, 2020

izec said:
If they get Havertz in + GK/CB/LB, they will be excellent. Could potentially put in a title challenge for some period of the season, depending on Liverpool/City. I think they will finish comfortably in the top 4 and play some nice football for large parts of the season at least. That is where i see ourselves as well. Best to wait and see how the transfer window plays out for all clubs, because i think that can make some huge difference and expectations will be set partially based on that.

That's 4 new players who will cost big big money...

You could say the same about any team?

TheMagicFoolBus · Aug 4, 2020

charlenefan said:
The Chelsea CB issue is worse than I thought if Zouma is your best one

Eh it's a collection of complementary pieces. All of them are quite good at some things and quite shocking at other things. For me Zouma is the most reliable and the bad things he does are more easily fixed / less disadvantageous (e.g. comfort on the ball, communication, being assertive) for the team compared to his strengths, which are genuinely world class level aerial presence, physicality, and pace.

njred · Aug 4, 2020

TheReligion said:
Will Klopp keep his job getting 4th?

Job for life after 19-6. This upcoming season is the big one isn’t it.

GenZRed · Aug 4, 2020

If they have a good summer in the transfer market they will be certain for Top 4. Same boat as Man United, really.

TheReligion · Aug 4, 2020

njred said:
Job for life after 19-6. This upcoming season is the big one isn’t it.

Yes but finishing 4 won't help you achieve anything big sadly.

Klopp is off after his contract runs out anyway as he said. Back to Germany for beer and brockwurst

giorno · Aug 4, 2020

duffer said:
He's an academy product and one of the best (stat-wise) left backs in the league. Any idea why they'd sell him for 20 million euros?

Probably just need the money. That is pretty low if we're selling him to chelsea though

As for the player, honestly i'd rather keep him given Marcelo's body seems to be breaking down. But, i don't think he's anything special either. Good, solid player, that's about it

Maybe he'll prove me wrong

Ødegaard · Aug 4, 2020

If Chelsea gets a left-back and a keeper they'll be in a great position for the upcoming season.
I don't think there is a immediate need for another CB for them this summer.

Keeper is a must though.
Have you guys been linked with a keeper, @duffer?

adexkola · Aug 4, 2020

MadMike said:
You need to become pragmatic and accept others will use.

Yeah but it's so ridiculous and arrogant to assume that managers aren't already "pragmatic", looking to maximize their teams fortunes given the talent they have. It's become so synonymous with playing cynical that I want to dropkick the word along with those who use it out of a glass window

Pow · Aug 4, 2020

Ødegaard said:
If Chelsea gets a left-back and a keeper they'll be in a great position for the upcoming season.
I don't think there is a immediate need for another CB for them this summer.

Keeper is a must though.
Have you guys been linked with a keeper, @duffer?

Have we ever
Oblak
Onana
Pope
Some turkish dude
Ter stegen
And so many more.

Ødegaard · Aug 4, 2020

Pow said:
Have we ever
Oblak
Onana
Pope
Some turkish dude
Ter stegen
And so many more.

But any that are properly linked and not just linked by randoms on twitter or the daily mail?
Anyone you believe are likely?

TrustInJanuzaj · Aug 4, 2020

People still haven’t addressed the point that it’s extremely rare a team signs 5/6 players in one window for the first team and they all click at once. I do think Chelsea could be building a fairly decent team but claims of them leapfrogging City or even Utd seem premature considering that relies on a best case scenario where all the new signings click and are top class. I think it’s more likely they remain wildly inconsistent and some of the signings impress while others take time to settle and/or completely flop.

Pow · Aug 4, 2020

Ødegaard said:
But any that are properly linked and not just linked by randoms on twitter or the daily mail?
Anyone you believe are likely?

Wrong person ask bud i thought the ziyech werner links were by randos on Twitter and they were completed out of no where.
Onana could be the most likely as he is the cheapest out of the names that you know there .

Ødegaard · Aug 4, 2020

Pow said:
Wrong person ask bud i thought the ziyech werner links were by randos on Twitter and they were completed out of no where.
Onana could be the most likely as he is the cheapest out of the names that you know there .

Alright, thanks.

Read anything more on the pursuit of Tagliafico?

Pow · Aug 4, 2020

Ødegaard said:
Alright, thanks.
Read anything more on the pursuit of Tagliafico?

From what ive seen hes a name mentioned but no real strong links
Imo its clear frank wants chillwell but 80 mil so...
A lot of links today for real madrids young lb reguilon whose been at sevilla on loan for about 20 odd mil.
The first thing that needs fixing in the defence is the keeper imo.

WeePat · Aug 4, 2020

TrustInJanuzaj said:
People still haven’t addressed the point that it’s extremely rare a team signs 5/6 players in one window for the first team and they all click at once. I do think Chelsea could be building a fairly decent team but claims of them leapfrogging City or even Utd seem premature considering that relies on a best case scenario where all the new signings click and are top class. I think it’s more likely they remain wildly inconsistent and some of the signings impress while others take time to settle and/or completely flop.

Hmm

TheMagicFoolBus · Aug 4, 2020

Ødegaard said:
Alright, thanks.
Read anything more on the pursuit of Tagliafico?

Seems Chelsea are treating him like a backup option should we miss our other targets.

The Onana links are the most concrete out of any keeper we've been linked to, the Oblak interest is real as well but obviously far from realistic.

Chelsea 2020/21 - General discussion

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