Dutch football announce pilot scheme where a woman will play with a man's team in the 10th tier of Dutch football

In Rainbows

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That we have a problem in society with generalising groups far too much and easily (which I am also guilty for). Not all women will be able to, just like not all men will be able too (Hello 0.01%) but that does not mean that the option or availablity shouldn't be there if there was or is a female capable of competing at a decent level. There may well be a bunch of women that are able to compete at a decent level but at the moment there are a lot of rules that stop that possibility.

It is possible for womens football to grow while having the option for women to compete if they wish and are capable.

Nobody really knows what level that is because the only evidence we have so far is female vs male games or examples of girls playing in mixed teams at youth level. There is obviously a very different training schedule and environment for a woman who plays in a mixed team throughout her whole career compared to a woman who plays mixed until the age of 12 and then changes to an all womens team.
In related news, they just had the best badminton woman playing against the former 120th ranked man (who doesn't really compete at these events much anymore), was given a 8 pt handicap per game, and still lost. She trains with men too.

You're underestimating the physical difference.


In the case of this club, there is a big difference from going to the u18s to the first team level even if you're a man. The physical difference will only get larger at first team level. It's hard enough for youngsters to make the step up even if they are talented within the setup relative to the club's level.


In football, it's not just strength that someone like Silva has an advantage. It's easier for him to compete with stamina. Easier to be more precise (requires physical action) at the top level which matters when faster people are rushing you to get the ball. It's not as simple as you're making it out like it's just skill that can make the difference. That's only when the playing field is level (men vs men). Context matters.

Even Gomes, for as small as he is, relies on his phsyical ability to give himself just enough space to do what he wants whether that be dribbling at a speed, being able to ride tackles, being able to fake a certain direction, putting himself in position to receive a pass at a certain time, etc... All the little things that you're taking for granted.
 

ghagua

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I'm all for equality, but this is insane, no matter how good the player is. The physical equation will come into play, even in leagues where smaller players can thrive.
 

11101

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That we have a problem in society with generalising groups far too much and easily (which I am also guilty for). Not all women will be able to, just like not all men will be able too (Hello 0.01%) but that does not mean that the option or availablity shouldn't be there if there was or is a female capable of competing at a decent level. There may well be a bunch of women that are able to compete at a decent level but at the moment there are a lot of rules that stop that possibility.
It is possible for womens football to grow while having the option for women to compete if they wish and are capable.

Nobody really knows what level that is because the only evidence we have so far is female vs male games or examples of girls playing in mixed teams at youth level. There is obviously a very different training schedule and environment for a woman who plays in a mixed team throughout her whole career compared to a woman who plays mixed until the age of 12 and then changes to an all womens team.
I'm just not sure I see the point. Why go to the effort of opening it up when nobody will ever compete? The military did it with infantry and special forces selection but nobody has ever made it through, and you could end up with a motorsport scenario where women take seats from others just for the marketing value and end up miles off the pace, which helps nobody.
 

led_scholes

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This seems more logical and rightful than the female nominations for the Puskas award, which was, IMO, ridiculous. If she has already being training with them for a couple of years, they probably saw that she could keep up with the rest, so it makes sense.
 

limerickcitykid

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I'm just not sure I see the point. Why go to the effort of opening it up when nobody will ever compete? The military did it with infantry and special forces selection but nobody has ever made it through, and you could end up with a motorsport scenario where women take seats from others just for the marketing value and end up miles off the pace, which helps nobody.
The point is so she can play in her village which doesn’t have a women’s team. It seems pretty simple.

She asked if she could play and they said yes. I doubt that required a great deal of effort.
 

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So many in this thread pretending there aren't any short or slight blokes playing the game.

Oh no, she'll be tackled by a big strong man.

She a woman she's not made of feckin glass.
 

SilentWitness

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In related news, they just had the best badminton woman playing against the former 120th ranked man (who doesn't really compete at these events much anymore), was given a 8 pt handicap per game, and still lost. She trains with men too.

You're underestimating the physical difference.


In the case of this club, there is a big difference from going to the u18s to the first team level even if you're a man. The physical difference will only get larger at first team level. It's hard enough for youngsters to make the step up even if they are talented within the setup relative to the club's level.


In football, it's not just strength that someone like Silva has an advantage. It's easier for him to compete with stamina. Easier to be more precise (requires physical action) at the top level which matters when faster people are rushing you to get the ball. It's not as simple as you're making it out like it's just skill that can make the difference. That's only when the playing field is level (men vs men). Context matters.

Even Gomes, for as small as he is, relies on his phsyical ability to give himself just enough space to do what he wants whether that be dribbling at a speed, being able to ride tackles, being able to fake a certain direction, putting himself in position to receive a pass at a certain time, etc... All the little things that you're taking for granted.
Badminton and Football aren't comparable in the way you've chosen as that's an individual sport against a team sport (In your scenario) + you've chosen a sport where mixed doubles happens at an elite level and works very well. Plus it is one individual game that has suddenly made a sweeping example of the whole industry. Nobody is suggesting that a full female team could compete with a full male team but there is a possibility that there can be a female to compete at a decent enough level and that's why it's important to have more and more trials of this nature.

I have already said that there will be males who also cannot compete at a high level or make that step up, but that does not mean that there cannot be examples that can. I'm not saying that Silva or Gomes or whoever have absolutely no speed, strength or stamina. Of course to be an elite level footballer you do but the mens game is full of people of different skillsets and of varying ability in them. There is going to be some females who are of a higher stamina than some male elite players or stronger or quicker than them. It's not as simple as just saying Men are more physical than Women and she can't compete, the end.

I'm just not sure I see the point. Why go to the effort of opening it up when nobody will ever compete? The military did it with infantry and special forces selection but nobody has ever made it through, and you could end up with a motorsport scenario where women take seats from others just for the marketing value and end up miles off the pace, which helps nobody.
You don't know that nobody will and there doesn't need to be a barrier if people enjoy it. Your motorsport scenario isn't exclusive to women, males also take seats from others due to money.
 

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Fully agree. If you want to promote equality, this is the wrong way to do it. Promote the woman’s game, not make them play with men. This is only going to end badly.
No one is making anyone do anything.

She's been playing for the local team at underage level (as mixed teams are allowed) but now that's she's 19 she needed permission to continue on and play for the full team.


In the 2020/21 season, the KNVB is starting a pilot in collaboration with VV Foarut to let women participate in amateur football in category A for men. Ellen Fokkema (19) gets a dispensation to play football in the first men's team of VV Foarut, which plays in the fourth division. Based on the results of the pilot, the KNVB will evaluate whether there is a good basis for allowing women and men to play mixed football in category A, and to permanently amend the regulations.

Girls can now play mixed football from the youngest pupils to Under 19. However, as soon as boys move on from under 19 to category A of the men, the woman is forced to play football in category B with the men or in a women's team. By granting dispensation and good monitoring on an individual basis, as will now be the case with VV Foarut, the KNVB can formulate a good vision of this issue in the future, but also give the women who are eligible to do so the space to play. experience in category A.

Very challenging
“It's fantastic that I can continue to play in this team,” responds Ellen Fokkema, player of the first team of VV Foarut. “I've been playing with these guys since I was five and I was sorry that I wouldn't be able to play with them in a team next year. From the KNVB I was always advised to continue playing with the boys for as long as possible, so why shouldn't it be possible? It is quite a challenge, but that only excites me more. I asked the club if something was possible and together we submitted the request to the KNVB. My teammates also reacted enthusiastically that I can stay with them. I dare not say how it will go, but I am very happy anyway that I can participate in this pilot. ”
 

Classical Mechanic

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I'm just not sure I see the point. Why go to the effort of opening it up when nobody will ever compete? The military did it with infantry and special forces selection but nobody has ever made it through, and you could end up with a motorsport scenario where women take seats from others just for the marketing value and end up miles off the pace, which helps nobody.
I think one woman has passed SAS selection but declined to join the force full time.
 

NotThatSoph

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I'm all for equality, but this is insane, no matter how good the player is. The physical equation will come into play, even in leagues where smaller players can thrive.
That would be her problem, and she wants to try. Her club said yes, so they obviously want her in the team, and she was given permission from whoever decides these things.

What's the issue?
 

Cassidy

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Shes been playing with the males anyway since youth level, so don't see the issue
 

11101

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The point is so she can play in her village which doesn’t have a women’s team. It seems pretty simple.

She asked if she could play and they said yes. I doubt that required a great deal of effort.
We were talking beyond that specific example in the OP.

I've no issue with the rule being removed that restricts women playing in all leagues, but i think world football has bigger fish to fry.
 

Maluco

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If it’s a village team so she can enjoy a kickabout on a Saturday, I don’t see the big deal. Presumably if she isn’t good enough, she will be on the bench just like any other Sunday league player.

Its definitely not the same as a slight male playing at the highest level though. If you played five a side with David Silva, he would physically dominate you too. He wouldn’t even have to really play.
 

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What's next?!?! etc.

I‘d like to see games be played while the goals are filled with tons of fish all the way from the goal line to the crossbar to the bulging net to make a point against the cruel overfishing of the seas.
Capturing fish in large nets being the metaphor here.
 

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My point is that physically outmatching someone doesn't have to matter all the time in football. The ability to play well enough without being strong/quick* can enable someone to compete at a good level whether they are male or female or otherwise.

It's also what I mean when I say the notion of masculinity is still very prevalent within mens football that physical mismatches/players being afraid to tackle a woman is the most common post you see in these threads.

*which people are assuming without seeing her or her team play.
I'm not sure what being hesitant to tackle a woman has to do with 'the notion of masculinity', a man physically coming into contact with a woman in an aggressive manner is not accepted in society in any shape or form. Having to overcome the instinct to not do that to a woman isn't exactly normal when playing football at a fast pace. You're also talking about the 10th tier of the dutch league, I can only imagine the type of challenges going on.
 

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A lot of fragile masculinity on view here. It might be mad, it might not. It's hardly the end of the world cats, the sky on fire, lying down with dogs etc.
 

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Very interesting how far can she get in men's football. I will be checking on her every now and then. It does seem to be the right decision imo, she's been playing with males ever since she was 15, it's amateur football so I don't think it's overkill.
 

SilentWitness

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I'm not sure what being hesitant to tackle a woman has to do with 'the notion of masculinity', a man physically coming into contact with a woman in an aggressive manner is not accepted in society in any shape or form. Having to overcome the instinct to not do that to a woman isn't exactly normal when playing football at a fast pace. You're also talking about the 10th tier of the dutch league, I can only imagine the type of challenges going on.
Not all tackles are aggressive?

It's suggesting that males are able to cope with challenges but women aren't even though this women in question has been playing in mixed sport all her life.
 

In Rainbows

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Badminton and Football aren't comparable in the way you've chosen as that's an individual sport against a team sport (In your scenario) + you've chosen a sport where mixed doubles happens at an elite level and works very well. Plus it is one individual game that has suddenly made a sweeping example of the whole industry. Nobody is suggesting that a full female team could compete with a full male team but there is a possibility that there can be a female to compete at a decent enough level and that's why it's important to have more and more trials of this nature.

I have already said that there will be males who also cannot compete at a high level or make that step up, but that does not mean that there cannot be examples that can. I'm not saying that Silva or Gomes or whoever have absolutely no speed, strength or stamina. Of course to be an elite level footballer you do but the mens game is full of people of different skillsets and of varying ability in them. There is going to be some females who are of a higher stamina than some male elite players or stronger or quicker than them. It's not as simple as just saying Men are more physical than Women and she can't compete, the end.



You don't know that nobody will and there doesn't need to be a barrier if people enjoy it. Your motorsport scenario isn't exclusive to women, males also take seats from others due to money.
I'm glad they're going through with it as there is no other option for her apart from leaving the club. So it's good that they've changed the rules. I'm never against the idea of competing against one another. I just thought woman leagues were made so they can get their shine too. They were made for a reason, not for the same bigoted reasons like the color barrier was enforced.


But for this discussion on whether they can compete, I'm sure there is a level where they can compete at. For example, if you take a pro woman player and make them compete against us, surely they would dominate. However, they will get lost in the shuffle if they compete with men considering the levels to compete at the highest level where there is any visibility.

I don't see that changing. Not even for a single exception.

I think it is as simple as saying that. Truly examine what goes into the smallest players competing. It's not just that they're competing with higher technical skill. They're competing with no disadvantage physically. This means that they can run on a counter attack to be at a specific spot to contribute in the final third more so than a Woman can. This means they can ride tackles in a way a woman can't. This means that they can fake going to the right to open up space for them to affect the game. This means they can last as long as they do on the pitch without being substituted.

There are a lot of small insignificant things you're taking for granted when speaking of someone like Silva or Gomes because the context under which these small technical players make those things insignificant is by being men, where as the context completely changes if it's a woman and those factors can turn into significant factors to prevent a woman from competing against men.


I can imagine if these small technical players like Silva were put into another competition where instead of playing against fellow men, they play against some aliens that are faster and stronger, Silva will no longer be as good as his technical skill affords him to be. The technique required will need to be even better to compensate for an even greater disparity in strength he lacks, greater disparity in agility, greater disparity in time required to control a pass, to make decisions, to shoot, to last as long as his teammates, etc...
 

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Not all tackles are aggressive?

It's suggesting that males are able to cope with challenges but women aren't even though this women in question has been playing in mixed sport all her life.
There is a huge difference between playing underage football and playing senior football. Also, my main point is that it will be difficult for players facing her, and probably even referees to call fouls on her fairly, unless she is a 6ft, 15 stone tank. Finally, comparing small men to women doesn't make a lot of sense at all.
 

NotThatSoph

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There is a huge difference between playing underage football and playing senior football. Also, my main point is that it will be difficult for players facing her, and probably even referees to call fouls on her fairly, unless she is a 6ft, 15 stone tank. Finally, comparing small men to women doesn't make a lot of sense at all.
Marcus Rashford pretty much went straight from U18 to the PL, did he not? He managed the transition quite fine, and that jump is much more stark than what Fokkema will have to do.
 

Lu Tze

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Sounds like a really positive step. It is highly likely that 99% of women footballers can't play at the standard required, but it's ridiculous to think that there is not one woman who has the physical attributes to play professionally, and gender rules should not hold that person back. Women can sprint 11 second 100ms and run marathons in 2 and a bit hours, they can play a game of football.

The stuff about 'oh men will worry about tackling her' - that's their problem and no-one elses.
 

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There is a huge difference between playing underage football and playing senior football. Also, my main point is that it will be difficult for players facing her, and probably even referees to call fouls on her fairly, unless she is a 6ft, 15 stone tank. Finally, comparing small men to women doesn't make a lot of sense at all.
Yes, which is why it's a problem of masculinity and the way it has been portrayed previously that women are meant to be protected, looked after and can't fend for themselves that is making you and others think that is going to be a problem for her and the males to think that. If there wasn't the idea of being masculine and the differences between that and femininity there would not be that thought from the players or referee.

@In Rainbows

Small men to women - What I am saying is that there are men of differing physical capablities who play at an elite level. There is not a rule that says all need to be above 6 foot or a certain speed or whatever. They're all different and capable despite these differences. When these threads happen there is always a trend that happens where people see all women as one size or physical capablity which isn't true. There will be some women that are physically more capable than men and vice versa. I'm not even saying that there categorically will be a female that reaches the elite level but that's not to say there isn't a possibility that one can. This isn't an argument about suddenly stopping womens football and making all women compete in mixed football. This is an argument about having the option for women who feel they are capable, actually are capable and wish to play mixed football to do so. Some in this thread are quite happy to completely block that because they have used the generalised standard of men > women physically without taking into account those that are exceptions to that.

In terms of mixed football aswell there is going to be a difference with the ability of players or the way that someone trains at a mixed team compared to the womens team. As much as people like to say the argument that they'll be physically outmatched and dominated and crunched etc. they aren't looking at the possible growth of someone that goes through that. Biologically in terms of muscle and testosterone they may be unable to get to the same strength as some players but they may be able to enhance their mind instead so they're able to avoid that tackle in the future by thinking quicker etc.
 
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NotThatSoph

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Yes, which is why it's a problem of masculinity and the way it has been portrayed previously that women are meant to be protected, looked after and can't fend for themselves that is making you and others think that is going to be a problem for her and the males to think that. If there wasn't the idea of being masculine and the differences between that and femininity there would not be that thought from the players or referee.

@In Rainbows

Small men to women - What I am saying is that there are men of differing physical capablities who play at an elite level. There is not a rule that says all need to be above 6 foot or a certain speed or whatever. They're all different and capable of that. When these threads happen there is always a trend that happens where people see all women as one size or physical capablity which isn't true. There will be some women that are physically more capable than men and vice versa. I'm not even saying that there categorically will be a female that reaches the elite level but that's not to say there isn't a possibly that one can. This isn't an argument about suddenly stopping womens football and making all women compete in mixed football. This is an argument about having the option for women who feel they are capable, actually are capable and wish to play mixed football to do so. Some in this thread are quite happy to completely block that because they have used the generalised standard of men > women physically without taking into account those that are exceptions to that.

In terms of mixed football aswell there is going to be a difference with the ability of players or the way that someone trains at a mixed team compared to the womens team. As much as people like to say the argument that they'll be physically outmatched and dominated and crunched etc. they aren't looking at the possible growth of someone that goes through that. Biologically in terms of muscle and testosterone they may be unable to get to the same strength as some players but they may be able to enhance their mind instead so they're able to avoid that tackle in the future by thinking quicker etc.
If the David Silva example was too much for people to handle, several teammates of mine got senior matches at 15. This was in the fifth tier in Norway, I don't know how that compares with the ninth tier in the Netherlands. They were good players, but they were 15 year old boys. They were tiny. They had a tough time, but they survived no problem.
 

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If she can take a full on body check, go crushing into a bill board and still come on to challenge for an aerial ball.....this experiment gets a 10% chance at being a success and I'll be all for it.
 

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Very interesting how far can she get in men's football. I will be checking on her every now and then. It does seem to be the right decision imo, she's been playing with males ever since she was 15, it's amateur football so I don't think it's overkill.
She’s actually been playing for the club since she was 5. And always with the male team. I think it is great that she is allowed to continue playing with her mates.
 

ghagua

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That would be her problem, and she wants to try. Her club said yes, so they obviously want her in the team, and she was given permission from whoever decides these things.

What's the issue?
The issue is your question! If you don't understand the physical difference between a male and a female in a contact sport, then what can I say. This is not meant as a disrespect to any females. Some things are not meant to be. Sure, in non-contact sports it would fine to try out, even compete.
 

Carl

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Absolutely no problem with this is all levels of the game. If they're good enough then why not?
 

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Some context would have helped the OP. It's been provided in the meantime by @limerickcitykid and @Withnail and others, but some people seem to overlook that.

Regardless of whether that's a good thing, there is no talk at all about introducing this at senior levels. This situation here isn't just at amateur level, this is close to the bottom of Dutch first-team amateur football. Football is extremely organized in the Netherlands: pretty much anyone who plays, joins a club and plays in the Dutch FA's league system. That also applies outside first-team football, where it goes down to absolute crap levels. (Where I was. :wenger: ) In fact, only the top two leagues (eredivisie and eerste divisie) are fully professional in the Netherlands. So this isn't like playing in the Isthmian League in the UK.

So we're pretty far away from discussing whether women can join reasonably join professional sides. Also. as those I referred to mentioned, this woman just asked to be able to keep playing with the guys that she's been playing with since she was a small kid. She's not being transferred anywhere, she just want to keep playing with her friends now that she is getting too old for kids teams (where it's nothing extraordinary to see a girl in a guys' team) and has to join an adult team. VV Foarút is from a town with 2,640 inhabitants - it's not like there is a full woman's team available...
 
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Conor

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Marcus Rashford pretty much went straight from U18 to the PL, did he not? He managed the transition quite fine, and that jump is much more stark than what Fokkema will have to do.
Again, I'm not sure why people keep comparing men of any type to women. Marcus Rashford as a 6ft 17/18 year old man is not comparable to a woman. He will have more muscle mass and be stronger than the majority of women in the world.

I would also like to highlight that this really doesn't bother me in any way, hopefully it works out fine for her, but I reckon I would find it difficult playing against a woman, maybe that's on me, but I'm sure most of her opponents will feel the same. Aside from this specific example, where she didn't have anywhere else to play, I'm not sure if integrating men and women is a necessary thing to do in football.
 

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I can't see why it would be a problem a priori. If a woman can make it at a higher level, it remains to be seen. But they should be allowed to try.
 

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I would've loved to see some more of those experiments. While it's obvious that the general level of women's football would never be close to that of men's, I still can't imagine that the most talented female players like Marta, are still worse than all of those thousands of male players that play in Europe's top leagues. Especially if she were to train with them and everything.

I know that there's a considerable difference in tennis, for example (, but tennis has way less players and it's an individual sport – in football your physical shape, pace and stamina is not quite as important and it can be compensated by other qualities, while in tennis you'll get murdered if you won't be able to keep up the tempo for the whole entirety of the game. The case of Williams sisters vs Karsten Braasch is a little bit concerning though.
 

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The next Icelandic NT keeper (might be the current one even now) is 17 years old and is in her 2nd season as a starter. She trains with boys because the manager feels that there's a limit to her improvement training only with the first team.

If a woman is good enough to play she's good enough to play. The only reason why the sport is gendered is because of the gulf in quality. I don't see a reason why if the difference isn't there on the pitch that it should be separated.

Doesn't sound like much of a experiment to me, rather someone wanting to play with her friends. If she had any football ambitions she wouldn't want to play in an amateur league where the only obligation is basically show up a few days a week. Being a professional footballer in the women's game requires you to act like a professional and that's not for everyone.
 

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Again, I'm not sure why people keep comparing men of any type to women. Marcus Rashford as a 6ft 17/18 year old man is not comparable to a woman. He will have more muscle mass and be stronger than the majority of women in the world.

I would also like to highlight that this really doesn't bother me in any way, hopefully it works out fine for her, but I reckon I would find it difficult playing against a woman, maybe that's on me, but I'm sure most of her opponents will feel the same. Aside from this specific example, where she didn't have anywhere else to play, I'm not sure if integrating men and women is a necessary thing to do in football.
I'm not comparing men of any type to women, I'm comparing the jump. Marcus Rashford made the jump from U18 to senior football, Fokkema will do the jump from U19 to senior football. She is already playing with 19 year olds and is obviously doing that very well seeing as the team is happy about her being able to play with them still. She is already playing with and against people of Rashford's build.

The issue is your question! If you don't understand the physical difference between a male and a female in a contact sport, then what can I say. This is not meant as a disrespect to any females. Some things are not meant to be. Sure, in non-contact sports it would fine to try out, even compete.
She's doing fine against 19 year old men, why would 27 or 32 year olds be so impossible?
 

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It’s about time there was diversity in football. It would be great if one day football turned into a truly gender diverse game. I mean most other professions are pushing it so it makes sense. Can you imagine how great it would be to see Rapinoe, Rashford and Alex Morgan lining up for United ?
joke suckers
 

Cheimoon

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Doesn't sound like much of a experiment to me, rather someone wanting to play with her friends. If she had any football ambitions she wouldn't want to play in an amateur league where the only obligation is basically show up a few days a week. Being a professional footballer in the women's game requires you to act like a professional and that's not for everyone.
That's it. Also to add that she really doesn't have the option to go professional. She is some 7 levels away from professional football. For those that are interested, here is the Dutch football system:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_football_league_system#Men

Only the top two tiers are fully professional. Players in the second and third division (3rd and 4th tiers) may still get paid something depending on the wealth of the club, but it won't be anywhere near a living wage. Even the lesser players of the poorer clubs in the Eerste Division only earn something close to a minimum wage. The player in question is playing in the 9th tier.
 

SER19

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Simply can't understand this. Would consider myself an advocate of women's sports but they desperately need to shed the inferiority complex/chip on shoulder/constant obsession over position relative to male football and focus on development of the game first. It is presently light years behind but improving and has a good following. Just focus on it and stop these sideshows.
 

Amar__

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I suppose a lot of people in this thread have forgot about players like David Silva and Billy Gilmour.
What? :lol:

I bet there isn't single female football player that is stronger on her feet than Silva is. Let alone combined with the technique he has. I am sorry but your comment is ridiculous.