I remember how Wenger used to be mocked and derided for his trophyless top 4 finishes, but now top 4 is better than a trophy!
Who has had the better season?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Ricky Bobby was an idiot and you're doing yourself no favors by quoting him
This is very true.I remember how Wenger used to be mocked and derided for his trophyless top 4 finishes, but now top 4 is better than a trophy!
Chelsea.
The FA cup needs something new. Maybe the winner should get a CL spot instead of EL.
Would make all the clubs go after it with everything they got
The FA cup needs something new. Maybe the winner should get a CL spot instead of EL.
Would make all the clubs go after it with everything they got
Wenger was mocked for being happy finishing top 4 every season and having no real ambition to go above that.I remember how Wenger used to be mocked and derided for his trophyless top 4 finishes, but now top 4 is better than a trophy!
I’ve thought before how much of a game changer that would be. Would make the FA Cup really exciting. Won’t happen though.
Of course he had ambitions to go above that, but he was stymied by a stingy board. But the main point is that those top 4 finishes weren't valued much at all, even with CL participation
FA cup does need something new but I don't agree with giving the winner a CL spot. Actually I don't even agree with giving the winner a EL spot. Those spots should be for performances achieved over the season in the league rather than in 5-6 specific games of which 2-3 of those would be against teams from the lower leagues. Much more fair would be a higher prize money. Right now the prize money is just 3.6M. Just make it 20M and see the clubs taking the FA cup much more seriously.
That's not the point, and I'm not sure Wenger ever said he was happy just finishing top 4. Top 4 can be a stepping stone to success due to increased income provided the owner doesn't pocket the lion's share. But as an achievement in a particular season, a normal fan would easily take a trophy over top 4 because every fan identifies himself with trophies much more than club profits because trophies are what fans remember. Top 4 is of interest more to the owner but still doesn't guarantee that the club will make progress. Spurs are now down to 6th and in a Europa League scrap despite making a world record profit last year and finishing top 4 in the last 4 consecutive seasons.
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Without any context, I would agree with both here. But given the context that all three clubs (United, Chelsea and Arsenal) were expected to be there and thereabout fighting for the CL places, I don't think we can say Arsenal, who won the FA cup but finished 8th and is seemingly plateauing into a midtable club, has had a better season than United and Chelsea who finished 3rd and 4th and are in a visible upward trend. Mind you, FA cup is still a great cup and I would love for us to win it regularly, but just that doesn't make up for a bad season overall.
Was that the expectation for Arsenal pre-season? Honestly asking.
Do agree with the second bolded.
European football is needed to progress as a club (financially/transfers). Chelsea will be in a better place this time next season because of it.
Champions league places should be for the top 2 teams then the winner of the domestic cups.
Sorted.
Have some kind of playoff for europa.
Sorted.
Have some kind of playoff for europa.
There was a huge boost of positivity after signing Pepe and David Luiz and the fanbase were expecting a CL place. If I'm not wrong, a lot more pundits predicted Arsenal to finish top 4 than United or Chelsea.
edit: an example https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/53562357
If we're talking about impact on the future then neither CL qualification nor Fa Cup guarantees any good future, as shown several times before for Arsenal, United and even Chelsea.
Chelsea had better season just because there's a big gab between finishing 4th and 8th. Winning a domestic cup is nice but it's not going to close such gap. Chelsea had better results and better form over the course of the year.
Chelsea had better season just because there's a big gab between finishing 4th and 8th. Winning a domestic cup is nice but it's not going to close such gap. Chelsea had better results and better form over the course of the year.
Interesting idea, but it opens the possibility of Championship teams playing in CL (e.g Wigan).
Take that back adex!
I agree. More incentive. Perhaps move up up one league position as a reward except for 2nd place teams.
I loved the movie too!Definitely Arsenal. Who knows what will happen in the future, but a trophy in hand is better than potential prospects in future which may never pan out. 'A bird in hand' and all that...
When Chelsea finished in mid-table that one season, they immediately bounced back and won the title. No one knows what will happen next season, so a trophy for right now is best, and then next season we evaluate based on the actual events of next season.
All this potential and building for the future may turn out to be fruitless, and someone who had an underwhelming season comparatively could suddenly massively over-perform. It's all unknowns, so I prefer to take it season by season and try and win as much as possible.
When Chelsea finished in mid-table that one season, they immediately bounced back and won the title. No one knows what will happen next season, so a trophy for right now is best, and then next season we evaluate based on the actual events of next season.
All this potential and building for the future may turn out to be fruitless, and someone who had an underwhelming season comparatively could suddenly massively over-perform. It's all unknowns, so I prefer to take it season by season and try and win as much as possible.
Other than the title winners, top 4 is a losers' position, whilst winning a cup gets you a winner's medal. Using newly-promoted sides, let's say next season Leeds win the FA Cup but finish eighth, and West Brom finish third but win nothing, and they both get relegated in their second season without winning any more silverware, which of them has had the better 20/21 season and a more successful PL spell?
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In that scenario, I'd consider Leeds' season great but WBA's season amazing. I know it's unfortunate, but FA cup doesn't have the same importance as it did a couple of decades ago esp. considering big teams (even other PL teams) rarely play their best 11 before the semifinals.
Chelsea. Liverpool didn't even bother to compete in the FA Cup this season like the other teams. Chelsea finished in the top 4, one place below last season in the league. Arsenal had their worst ever season in how many years and got knocked out of the EL by Olympiacos. Their season reminds me of us winning the FA Cup under LvG. It was a nice feeling and good to win a trophy but the season was dreadful.
Historically Arsenal had the better season but the reality is that for many years now a CL group stage entrance is bigger than the FA og League Cup.
Historically Arsenal had the better season but the reality is that for many years now a CL group stage entrance is bigger than the FA og League Cup.
Always said in my book at least, there is no universe where 4th is better than 5th plus thropy, when it comes to 8th just depends how its percieved. This whole top 4 horsehit is biggest brainwash in history of the game.
yeah the movie was fun. Hope you’re well bud.It depends on the club and the situation they find themselves in. There are a handful of clubs that could still afford to spend big without CL football, and there are a handful of clubs that could still attract the best talent without CL football.
At this moment in time I dont think either of those scenarios apply to Arsenal. They are not an easy sell at the moment, and i really do believe that Arteta would prefer to have the finances and the extra pulling power that being in that competition would provide him.
If next season he finishes 8th again and wins the FA cup then there is a fairly good chance that he loses his job and harms his reputation.
West Brom obviously. A newly promoted team getting into the CL and getting an additional 60m in revenue that makes them far more likely to push on and remain in the league? Pretty clear one I'd say.
For club is better to have CL qualification because of money but for fans and players trophy should be more important. Because in the end, one finished with 4th spot trophy and other finished with actual trophy.
Having said that, if i need to choose i would pick CL. And i feel it is not right thinking from any football fan
Having said that, if i need to choose i would pick CL. And i feel it is not right thinking from any football fan
Fans are there for trophies, period. For fans nothing beats the excitement and celebration of seeing your captain lift a trophy, and the victory parade. That's what fans live for. Compared to winning a cup, no fan remembers top 4 with the same degree of excitement.
I said IF BOTH GET RELEGATED in their second season, in which case the £60m counted for nothing surely. And in this day money doesn't guarantee success. Leicester won the title on a shoestring budget whilst big spenders finished outside top 4. It's how smart you are on the market, not how much money you spend.
Spot on.
Where did Arsenal go to after all those years of top 4 and building? What happened to all the top 4 that Spurs had during Pochettino? All that promise, building for the future, and challenging later?
It's a big brainwash that top 4 will somehow propel you further and further until you eventually reach the title. Even us in recent times have had a season outside the top 4 where we challenged immediately after, and seasons we ended up in top 4 and then immediately underwhelmed.
Nothing is guaranteed except the trophy in hand. Arsenal definitely had a better season, and even though Spurs fans won't admit it, the direction their club has gone during and after Pochettino attests to that. At least Wenger in his latter years managed to get Arsenal some F.A Cups to remember him by...
Probably would still take the CL and revenue. Much more likely to come back up because the boost from CL revenue would be paid that following year post-relegation.
Also, as long as we're outlining oddly specific and implausible scenarios, I'll just say that WBA would win the CL whilst being relegated so they obviously were better off.
Can't complain. Waiting for borders to open
Different era, shouldn’t be compared. It’s like how people are arguing about which one is better, team who wins the league nowadays or teams who won the league back then.I remember how Wenger used to be mocked and derided for his trophyless top 4 finishes, but now top 4 is better than a trophy!
Back then there are only top 4 team, now top 6. Being 4th back then is easier than now. I think it really depends what the club needs. Chelsea needs top 4 this season more than FA Cup. The same with United. They need it to boost their chance in the transfer window in term of both financial & power.
Beside, it’s about making progress. Almost 15 years with no major trophy but only top 4.
I’m sure you are! Give me a shout when you’re in the mother city againCan't complain. Waiting for borders to open
Needs to be a bit more context to that though.I remember how Wenger used to be mocked and derided for his trophyless top 4 finishes, but now top 4 is better than a trophy!
Chelsea/United were hoping for top 4 this season as a stepping stone, Lampard himself said as much after securing it. Arsenal and Wenger didn't seem to have any progression plan and carried on targeting (and celebrating) 4th even when they were good enough to challenge for the league.
Just a joke mate...
This is the thing. Whilst Chelsea have indeed had the better season, it almost doesn't matter what the circumstances are; the answer to any question is always "Not Arsenal".
When we qualified 22 times in a row but in that period had 8 trophyless seasons we got hammered.
I think in a one off season a trophy is important for example nobody looks back at 2014 and says "I remember qualifying for the CL", they remember the FA Cup win. So an argument can be made that Arsenal's season has been more memorable, if not better in terms of overall performance. Nobody will remember Chelsea's 2019/20 season in a decade's time.
But having an extended period outside of the CL like we're having now is not good obviously.
Chelsea will get the money and be able to attract players etc etc which is important, but considering how crap we've been in the CL pretty much since you guys tonked us in the semi in '09 I'm not convinced that being in it did anything for the fans anyway... (it was obviously key for the financial aspect).
I think there's a case of recency bias since the league is over and done and dusted. While it's obviously nice to win a trophy, top 4 finish is just so much more valuable and impotant in terms of revenue, signing top players, being relevant, and competing alongside the top tier teams in Europe.
Ideally you'd like to do both of course, but top 4 should be the first thing you look to cement yourself in.
Ideally you'd like to do both of course, but top 4 should be the first thing you look to cement yourself in.
Depends ultimately where we finish in Europa. Arsenal despite winning the FA Cup did badly in the rest. Chelsea look like they're heading out of the CL but finished Top 4 and won the FA Cup, not bad. We got to the Semis in both Cups, finished 3rd, add the Europa Final/Win and we'll have done well this year. Tottenham have been dreadful.
*Ignored Community Shield and Liverpools Super Cup/Fifa Cup. Clear already Liverpool had a very good season.
| Club | Premier League | League Cup | FA Cup | Europa | Champions League |
| Liverpool | 1st | Quarters | 5th Round | - | Last 16 |
| Manchester City | 2nd | Winners | Semi | - | tba |
| Manchester United | 3rd | Semi | Semi | tba | - |
| Chelsea | 4th | 4th Round | Final | - | tba |
| Tottenham | 5th | 3rd Round | 5th Round | - | Last 16 |
| Arsenal | 8th | 4th Round | Winners | Intermediate Stage | - |
*Ignored Community Shield and Liverpools Super Cup/Fifa Cup. Clear already Liverpool had a very good season.
If Arsenal had been fighting for top 4 all season and just came up short but still won the FA Cup, you could make an argument, but 8th is pathetic.