Dutch football announce pilot scheme where a woman will play with a man's team in the 10th tier of Dutch football

Cheimoon

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Simply can't understand this. Would consider myself an advocate of women's sports but they desperately need to shed the inferiority complex/chip on shoulder/constant obsession over position relative to male football and focus on development of the game first. It is presently light years behind but improving and has a good following. Just focus on it and stop these sideshows.
Did you read the thread? This is just about a girl who would like to keep playing with her friends now they are all moving into adult teams. That wasn't previously possible, but so now they're piloting allowing that. It's at a very low amateur level; nothing to do with 'developing the women's game'.
 

BarstoolProphet

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I suppose a lot of people in this thread have forgot about players like David Silva and Billy Gilmour.

Weird example. Silva not only toyed with most of the players that tried to get near him but he also had a bit of a nasty streak in him. He was never afraid to get stuck in when needed.
 

Acrobat7

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Simply can't understand this. Would consider myself an advocate of women's sports but they desperately need to shed the inferiority complex/chip on shoulder/constant obsession over position relative to male football and focus on development of the game first. It is presently light years behind but improving and has a good following. Just focus on it and stop these sideshows.
Mate, read the thread and then post. This way we don’t have to endure your hot takes.
 

SilentWitness

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What? :lol:

I bet there isn't single female football player that is stronger on her feet than Silva is. Let alone combined with the technique he has. I am sorry but your comment is ridiculous.
Never said there was. See other posts.

Weird example. Silva not only toyed with most of the players that tried to get near him but he also had a bit of a nasty streak in him. He was never afraid to get stuck in when needed.
Wasn't talking about his nasty streak - again, see other posts. But you raise another point - despite his obvious difference in physicality to other players he wasn't afraid to get stuck in and give it back. Most posts in here are mentioning a female player being crunched by the men, getting bullied by the men etc. The female player is just as capable of doing that when needed.
 

Conor

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I'm not comparing men of any type to women, I'm comparing the jump. Marcus Rashford made the jump from U18 to senior football, Fokkema will do the jump from U19 to senior football. She is already playing with 19 year olds and is obviously doing that very well seeing as the team is happy about her being able to play with them still. She is already playing with and against people of Rashford's build.



She's doing fine against 19 year old men, why would 27 or 32 year olds be so impossible?
There is a big difference in playing against teenage boys vs men up to the age of 40(it is the lower leagues). 18 year olds are nowhere near their physical peak. They may be tall and gangly, but you only get the odd proper unit, that is my experience from the youth teams in my area anyway.
 

SER19

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Did you read the thread? This is just about a girl who would like to keep playing with her friends now they are all moving into adult teams. That wasn't previously possible, but so now they're piloting allowing that. It's at a very low amateur level; nothing to do with 'developing the women's game'.
Mate, read the thread and then post. This way we don’t have to endure your hot takes.
Lads chill out, I don't have to trawl every post before commenting on the original posters tweet which said this

'In the 2020/2021 season, the KNVB is starting a pilot in collaboration with VV Foarut to allow women in amateur football to participate in category A for men. Ellen Fokkema (19) gets a dispensation to play football in the first men's team of VV Foarut, which plays in the fourth division. Based on the results of the pilot, the KNVB will evaluate whether there is a good basis for allowing women and men to play mixed football in category A, and to permanently amend the regulations.'

If its offended your Internet etiquette sensibilities that I read this as some sort of controlled introduction then you'll need to somehow get over it.
 

Zen86

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I'm not sure. I've played a couple of charity games with women involved and everybody is incredibly careful, to the point of allowing them to do things a male player would never get away with.
That’s the whole problem, the male players will ultimately walk on eggshells to avoid having the inevitable hate campaign against them. It’ll happen sooner or later though.
 

Cheimoon

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Lads chill out, I don't have to trawl every post before commenting on the original posters tweet which said this

'In the 2020/2021 season, the KNVB is starting a pilot in collaboration with VV Foarut to allow women in amateur football to participate in category A for men. Ellen Fokkema (19) gets a dispensation to play football in the first men's team of VV Foarut, which plays in the fourth division. Based on the results of the pilot, the KNVB will evaluate whether there is a good basis for allowing women and men to play mixed football in category A, and to permanently amend the regulations.'

If its offended your Internet etiquette sensibilities that I read this as some sort of controlled introduction then you'll need to somehow get over it.
I obviously can't stop you from anything, but it seems poor form to me to post in a thread without following the discussion at all, and then to be insulted when people point out that your comment is besides the point entirely... Yes, the introduction should have been clearer, but it's not the only post in the thread, as lots of people by now have pointed out (in only three pages).
 

NotThatSoph

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There is a big difference in playing against teenage boys vs men up to the age of 40(it is the lower leagues). 18 year olds are nowhere near their physical peak. They may be tall and gangly, but you only get the odd proper unit, that is my experience from the youth teams in my area anyway.
Yes, it was my experience as a 16 year old as well, at probably 50 kg. Good thing they were fat, slow and not serious. It was tough, at times painful, but it went fine. I had tougher physical challenges several times per week from two of my teammates in particular, getting clobbered a few times is nothing compared to what a physically developed and highly determined junior will put you through every single duel. The worst senior players football has to offer, which is what the competition will be, don't have the will or ability to keep that up. They're shit, and they play for fun and the beers after.

This woman is used to playing against tougher players physically than I was. She thinks she can do it, and her teammates think she can do it. You don't.

I know for a fact that women can get through pickup games with grown men, because women participate in those all the time, and that can get just as brutal as amateur matches.

If a woman can't measure up physically against the men, but still is good enough to get in the team, that means she is simply a better footballer than them to make up for it. When I played, I was extremely physically weak, fell over at the slightest duel and basically never won a duel unless it was a sliding tackle, I caught someone off balance or I cheated. I was tiny, and a few of the girls I knew that were physically stronger and faster than me. However, I never missed if I got the ball inside the box, so I could still compete. Not at a high level, but we're talking low level amateurs.
 

SER19

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I obviously can't stop you from anything, but it seems poor form to me to post in a thread without following the discussion at all, and then to be insulted when people point out that your comment is besides the point entirely... Yes, the introduction should have been clearer, but it's not the only post in the thread, as lots of people by now have pointed out (in only three pages).
As I said, if it's offended your Internet etiquette you'll have to cope with it. I read the op and commented, as many do,all the time. Replying based on a title alone id disagree with, but I read the original post. Don't owe anybody more than that if you don't like a reply you can just move past it
 

RedRonaldo

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How about a man to play in women’s team too? Would that be possible ?
 

Le Red

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She's going to be overprotected. Every challenge will be a card and the slightest touch will be a penalty.
Just more things that prove politically correct has gone mad.
I've played alongside girls for recreation, I have no problem with it, but in any competitive setting mixed football should be a no no.
I knew this was coming though, just another product of the anal minds of the ideology police.
 

Le Red

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Yes? They are both players that are considerably lightweight in the PL and physically outmatched compared to their counterparts but have shown that they can cope due to their other skillsets.
Are you aware that they are still men though?
I seriously don't know why I bothered opening this thread, what a shitshow.
 

Le Red

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Unsurprisingly people are just spamming the usual "PC gone mad" "Pointless exercise for todays climate" stuff without even bothering to read the context (although, tbf the thread title is a bit misleading).

A girl from a Dutch team has basically played with boys in the youth teams because they didn`t have girls teams and until age 18, youth teams are allowed to be mixed. Both she and the club have preferred that option and now that she has turned 19 she normally would`ve had to change teams because its in the rules of the Dutch FA that women and men can`t play in the others gender teams.
Given that both the club and the player have expressed the wish to keep her playing in the mens team, the Dutch FA has now given them an excemption from the rule and will monitor how it goes to potentially disbandon the rule in amateur football. Nothing more, no hidden agenda, no social political correct experiment, just a change of rule for Amateur football.
It's still madness though. The best female teams in the world can't compete with junior male teams.
I find it funny that people are saying she'll get thugged out of games when it's going to be the complete opposite. Opposition players will be scared to death to tackle her and be branded female aggressors. Refs are going to protect her with their lives and supporters will jeer like mad whenever she's slightly touched.
Give it some time and the eventual accusation of "being touched in improper ways" will also come up in fk situations and such.
That is until some guy who doesn't give a shit about all that snaps her leg in half or something, but apparently the progressive people don't give a shit about how much of a hazard this whole thing can be for her health and career.
Absolutely nothing good can come out of this.
 

Jackal981

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The issue is your question! If you don't understand the physical difference between a male and a female in a contact sport, then what can I say. This is not meant as a disrespect to any females. Some things are not meant to be. Sure, in non-contact sports it would fine to try out, even compete.
Looks like some people here never played sports at all :lol: . 0 chance in a physical sport that women can compete with men. There is a reason sports are separated by gender (no it is not because society is sexist you morons). Even if this chick got the technique of Messi, she will still get manhandled.
 

Jackal981

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Are you aware that they are still men though?
I seriously don't know why I bothered opening this thread, what a shitshow.
Yeah you can see some of these poster never played sports at all and just sitting behind their computer all day spewing bollox. What a laughable notion comparing wonen to players like Silva. He might look weak compared to PL players, but sure as feck he will put these clown posters in their arse if somehow they played against him.
 

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I used to ref in a junior football league which was about 95% ages about 12 - 13, the boys held back and wouldn’t tackle properly, the girls got away with murder.

wouldn’t work with adults
 

pav1790

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Fair fecks to her, let her play. This is not about men and women and no one should make it about that - neither proponents of mixed football nor those of gendered football. This is just about letting a 19 year old play with people she grew up with. amateur and semi professional football should do away with these limitations, imo. Professional is a different story.
 

Dargonk

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Good on her. Really if she wants to keep playing with the men, then let her. She will either continue to enjoy it, or drop out. Basically effects no one but her. If she can't handle the league, it will only hurt her team.

I'd always view the men's divisions as the open league, which should be able to have both men and women in it. If a girl thinks she can cope, and wants to test herself in that league, then she should be welcome to.
 

jackal&hyde

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It's 2020 ya dummies, who gives a shit honestly. Good on the Dutch for letting it happen.
The 2020 where bigotry and sexism should no longer be tolerated or the 2020 where peoples feelings matter more then actual biology, data and science? Because we have both unfortunately one masquerading as the other.

I don't see the problem with this. Back when i played football with friends on occasion we would have a girl play with us and she was often better then some of the guys. It's amateur level here so it should work. If we are talking elite athletes then it's a different story.
 

pav1790

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The 2020 where bigotry and sexism should no longer be tolerated or the 2020 where peoples feelings matter more then actual biology, data and science? Because we have both unfortunately one masquerading as the other.

I don't see the problem with this. Back when i played football with friends on occasion we would have a girl play with us and she was often better then some of the guys. It's amateur level here so it should work. If we are talking elite athletes then it's a different story.
No one is talking about elite athletes and no one should be.

That being said, feelings are quite biological. Everything human is inherently biological. Even the abstract that we can think of. It is not anatomical - not entirely anyway. And may be that’s what you were driving at.
 

Conor

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Yes, it was my experience as a 16 year old as well, at probably 50 kg. Good thing they were fat, slow and not serious. It was tough, at times painful, but it went fine. I had tougher physical challenges several times per week from two of my teammates in particular, getting clobbered a few times is nothing compared to what a physically developed and highly determined junior will put you through every single duel. The worst senior players football has to offer, which is what the competition will be, don't have the will or ability to keep that up. They're shit, and they play for fun and the beers after.

This woman is used to playing against tougher players physically than I was. She thinks she can do it, and her teammates think she can do it. You don't.

I know for a fact that women can get through pickup games with grown men, because women participate in those all the time, and that can get just as brutal as amateur matches.

If a woman can't measure up physically against the men, but still is good enough to get in the team, that means she is simply a better footballer than them to make up for it. When I played, I was extremely physically weak, fell over at the slightest duel and basically never won a duel unless it was a sliding tackle, I caught someone off balance or I cheated. I was tiny, and a few of the girls I knew that were physically stronger and faster than me. However, I never missed if I got the ball inside the box, so I could still compete. Not at a high level, but we're talking low level amateurs.
I never said I don't think she can compete, I have no idea of this woman's skill level, or size. I am saying that in general, asking fully grown men to play against an 18 year old woman doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me, and I don't see the need to integrate football to that extent. Her teammates don't have to play against her, so I'm sure they don't care as much as anyone that does.
 

limerickcitykid

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Looks like some people here never played sports at all :lol: . 0 chance in a physical sport that women can compete with men. There is a reason sports are separated by gender (no it is not because society is sexist you morons). Even if this chick got the technique of Messi, she will still get manhandled.
Hayley Wickenheiser scored 11 points in 23 games of her first season in men’s hockey. So clearly it isn’t 0.
 

broccoli

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I never liked when girls joined us boys to play football back in school. It was a very rare event but when it happened I had to be overly cautious not to shoot with power or be too competitive. I'm pretty sure my peers had the same attitude more or less. It's our natural instinct. I've played with girls that play really well technically but in this kind of sport they will always be at a physical disadvantage against men. It's purely an anatomy issue.
 

SilentWitness

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Are you aware that they are still men though?
I seriously don't know why I bothered opening this thread, what a shitshow.
And? Read my other posts in the thread and you’ll see why I used them as an example. People are generalising all women as one physical size. There will be some female players who are physically capable/stronger/quicker etc than some male players. Or there will be some that aren’t but can still compete because it’s good enough AND they have the other skills to compete. This is not about allowing all women to enter men’s football but allowing the opportunity for those who want to and can obviously compete.
 

ghagua

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I'm not comparing men of any type to women, I'm comparing the jump. Marcus Rashford made the jump from U18 to senior football, Fokkema will do the jump from U19 to senior football. She is already playing with 19 year olds and is obviously doing that very well seeing as the team is happy about her being able to play with them still. She is already playing with and against people of Rashford's build.



She's doing fine against 19 year old men, why would 27 or 32 year olds be so impossible?
You seriously are asking this question? Sorry I offended you with my comments, but I thought someone with any sort of IQ would understand.
 
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ghagua

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Looks like some people here never played sports at all :lol: . 0 chance in a physical sport that women can compete with men. There is a reason sports are separated by gender (no it is not because society is sexist you morons). Even if this chick got the technique of Messi, she will still get manhandled.
Thank you. Someone who knows! This has nothing to do with sexism. I know the players are better protected from vicious fouls, but imagine someone like Granit Xhaka putting in a tackle.
 

DJ Jeff

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It'll be interesting to see how it goes. Anyone remember Clermont appointing a female manager a few years back? Just looked it up, Corinne Diacre. I remember a lot of talk at the time when she got the job (after Helena Costa left) but very little coverage after that. In any case she stayed 3 years so it must have went well enough
 

POF

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Not a big fan of this. Playing football isn't a problem but is she even qualified to fly a plane?
 

Chesterlestreet

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The case of Williams sisters vs Karsten Braasch is a little bit concerning though.
What's interesting there (you could say) is that Braasch - if I remember correctly - pretty much highlighted (in his comments regarding those matches) the purely physical aspects: he was 100% confident that he'd beat the sisters easily because he was stronger and faster, not because he was technically superior (which he may have been too, but that wasn't what he focused on).

And this was a guy infamous for enjoying a smoke and a drink (but he was still capable of hitting the ball harder, moving faster up and down the court, etc.).

Compare this to the famous "battle of the sexes" match in the 1970s, where Billie Jean King beat Bobby Riggs: a common take on that match is that King (who was in her prime, not yet 30) was in better shape than Riggs (who was in his mid-50s). I have never seen the full match myself, but the consensus seems to be that King didn't play all that well technically. She was, however, able to outrun/outmuscle (as it were) her much older opponent.

I say "interesting" because both examples involve purely physical attributes being the decisive factor.
 

krautrøck

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Not a big fan of this. Playing football isn't a problem but is she even qualified to fly a plane?
Good point, that was probably meant to say "stewardess scheme".
 

Acrobat7

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It'll be interesting to see how it goes. Anyone remember Clermont appointing a female manager a few years back? Just looked it up, Corinne Diacre. I remember a lot of talk at the time when she got the job (after Helena Costa left) but very little coverage after that. In any case she stayed 3 years so it must have went well enough
There was also a lot of talk when the first female referee was promoted to the 1. Bundesliga. Now she is barely being noticed which is great. It simply became normal. So let the girl continue to play with her mates. It is what she has been doing for 13 years. If she is not good enough she will be on the bench.
 

NotThatSoph

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You seriously are asking this question? Sorry I offended you with my comments, but I thought someone with any sort of IQ would understand.
Yes, I'm serious asking that question. It was actually a rhetorical question, because it's absolutely obvious that someone who doesn't have a problem playing with 19 year olds physically will do fine against older players as well. It'll be harder, but the difference is nowhere close to big enough that you can't handle it. Especially when the 32 year old is one of the worst players playing organized football.

It's pretty hilarious that you're trying to insult me for asking that question. You actually believe that someone who is doing fine against 19 year olds will not even manage to be on the same field as someone a decade older. It's an insane thing to believe.
 

United Junkie

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I went to see a few Scheveningen FC games when I was over there (They're in the 3rd Division) and it was very intense/feisty. I was surprised when I was told they were in the 3rd tier as it looked like Sunday League level at times, especially with the amount of fights and horrid tackles.

I think that Mens Football is a sport that still suffers with the notion of 'masculinity' so it will be interesting to see how that dynamic changes when a female enters that environment.
I played at Scheveningen and you are absolutely correct. Most of the time people were just out too break your legs. We had huge beefs with clubs like RAS and ODB who represented different areas in The Hague. But I always loved playing there.
 

Cheimoon

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Should be a successful experiment if so as she's already come through the ranks from ground level and they consider her good enough to play.
Well, I guess it's an experiment in the sense that they want to see how it goes with other teams. It's a bit silly to feel uncomfortable playing against a woman (she knows the sport and wants to play; why would you not treat her like any other opponent?), but if it really becomes an issue, maybe the Dutch FA will reconsider.

Btw, having girls in boys teams is already permitted at youth levels in the Netherlands. It's just (apparently) not yet at adult level - which is what they're looking into fixing here.

For the general point, I don't know why men's sports shouldn't be open to women. If they can't compete, they won't get into the team; if they can, they could be an asset. What's there to lose?